razorace Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 Source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 Btw, I loaded up JK2 again to see if the charge of "game speed being slower" for JA was correct. JA and JK2 both use g_speed "250" for both SP & MP. I also didn't see any discernable difference in the speed of the special moves (JK2 1.04 MP vs. JA 1.01 MP), but I guess I'd need a side by side video comparision to be absolutely positive. I'd like to know the source too, RA. Has somebody looked at the "source code" from the JA SDK and knows what changes it contains? If there's going to be another official patch, surely that would give us some clue... Personally I don't see the point in lowering Staff damage myself, it's already just fine, though I play with increased damage for all sabers, and the Staff doesn't dominate... and it's not useless either. ; ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceButler14 Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 Here's the basic problem: You think that because you liked JK2 you take your personal view of that game and believe that other people share that, and that you are then entitled to have that pandered to for the rest of your life. I'm sorry. This is a different game. They don't owe you your own ideal jedi game. They owe us a working product for our fifty dollars, which they FINALLY @(#*&@()#* delivered with that blasted patch. If you don't like the game, it's too bad, but that's life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 On a related note I was playing around with g_speed in JA to try to aproximate the speed from MotS, which I fired up for comparison. I haven't got it exact, but 500 seems about right, or somewhere in that range. In MotS (like JK1), walk speed felt more like JK2/JA's run speed, and run speed felt almost twice as fast (after a split second start). While JK2/JA's Force Speed does 2x, 4x, and 8x running (?), the highest level of MotS speed (level 4) seemded to double both running and walking speed (making Speed walking the same as normal running an normal running 2x faster). So doubling the overall speed feels closer to what you had in the old games. Though, things like blaster shots, rate of fire, turning speed, etc aren't necessarily all balanced to that (though the speed of saber swings feels about the same), so leave that to a mod that wants to tweak the game to JK1/MotS level speeds. But JK2 = JA in terms of speed. Graphically JK2 feels more plain and unpolished in terms of graphics compared to JA, even though so much is the same in the two games. And there are fewer moves (except for a few lingering exploits and the much lamented flip kicks of course). Both SP games (JA and JK2) both have a more bouncy, floating, "loose" feeling compared to their MP counterparts. My suggestion to people not happy with JA... get into editing, and mod it to the point where you like it, then release it and get all your friends to use the mod. Until the next game that is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan Has somebody looked at the "source code" from the JA SDK and knows what changes it contains? If there's going to be another official patch, surely that would give us some clue... Changes from JK2? lots There's a lot that is the same but a lot that is different as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrotoy7 Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 Originally posted by rii This is going to be long........ boy oh boy ! Thats a fair effort for your 3rd post Rii ! In my 3rd post, I said something along the lines of "This game is cool because it has tauntauns !" As for the petition..................Zzzzzzzzz. Couldnt care less. I hate Battlefield even more....I would really love to see a flight sim in the SW universe, along the lines of the XW/Tie series...... Rebel Strike is fun, but I wouldnt really call it a flight sim, more an arcade game..... MTFBWYA **Goes back to playing KOTOR, THE GREATEST SW GAME OF ALL TIME** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Side Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 cant ya flight in SWG? some guy told me he could Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Blackrose Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 Originally posted by Side cant ya flight in SWG? some guy told me he could Yanked at the last minute due to SOE's incompetance. It's probably going to be in the first expansion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acdcfanbill Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 If i wanna fly, i'll play a game like freespace, wing commander, or xwing besides the flying in swg will prob suck you'll fly around and then the computer will roll die and see if u hit the other guy or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpecialForces Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 Originally posted by AxVegetA Wrong. In JO, after u beat SP 2 or 3 times u get sick of it. After that, all that maters is MP. Exactly the same for JA. JA IS MP. I always wanted JA to be a fully MP game, and i really think SP is a waste of time. And galaxies is way diferent than JA, thats an rpg. I guess ill sign in if this helps to make a really good Jedi Knight MP game for next year. OMG, no offence but that would SUCK I have to go places all the time! SP is important, its an away from home game MP is an at home thing, that I play the most Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 Originally posted by razorace Changes from JK2? lots There's a lot that is the same but a lot that is different as well. Heh, no. I meant changes (if any) from JA 1.01 in the current JA SDK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 Originally posted by Rad Blackrose Yanked at the last minute due to SOE's incompetance. It's probably going to be in the first expansion... So doesn't that make it about a year late? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Blackrose Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 Depends on if and when. If in terms of if they have the technology to pull it off, when in terms of how long it's going to take to get to a stable, playable state. I'd give it two, maybe three years. But then again, it could turn out like Horizons... *grumble* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 I read on the official site that vehicles support in SWG had already been added. However that must not have included space based vehicles (ie: starfighters) since you guys are saying that "expansion" hasn't been released yet. Three of the things they said would be out of box that weren't now finally been added: Drivable/ridable vehicles Buildable cities (you can incorporate buildings into cities over time) Jedi (force sensitive classes are being discovered by players to train into Jedi/Sith) Though again this is second hand info since I don't play the game, I'm just going by what I've read on the sites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted December 18, 2003 Share Posted December 18, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan Though again this is second hand info since I don't play the game, I'm just going by what I've read on the sites. WHich is what I'm going on to, since I have no interest in playing Galaxies... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marker0077 Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 I'm not even reading this thing, I read quite a bit of this post on GamingForums so I'll just post what I posted there here. Originally posted by rii The proposal is this : Make a game that is multiplayer only (like Unreal Tournament)... That will not ever happen & I do not blame them. Single player is their money maker. It sells tens of thousands of copies where the actual online community playing isn't even over 1 thousand. If you put the JK2 & JK3 actually online population count together, it doesn't go over 1,500. I get that information directly from the Ravensoft & GameSpy master servers (combined count). Hell, there's alot of games out there that have a higher online population count with their mods than with this retail game (I'm not referring to Counter-Strike, that is retail in my book). You need to keep in mind that these guys do not have the luxery of just doing whatever they want, they have a deadline to meet & they got done what they could within that timeline. Be happy with what you've got, it could have been alot worse. They make the MP source code available to us so that we may fix MP on our own. If something coded is good enough & the population seems to like it, they'll probably code it or something similar in the next retail release of the series. Originally posted by rii Despite the initial disgust at v1.04 of JO MP... Hav no clue WTF you are on about there. Everyone I knew then & know now, as well as myself, loved that release from the get go. Mainly because it eliminated the backattack whoring. Originally posted by rii The major difference between JK2 MP/SP : SPEED This is where I stopped reading. I realize you said that it will all make sense in the end but TBH, I doubt it & even if it would, I don't care. You are obviously not a developer & do not appreciate what you have, otherwise this petition would not be here in the first place. If you think your views are this significant & could change the game for the greater good, I recommend that you concentrate your efforts in learning how to mod & not make more threads like this one. If your mod is that good & you pimp it off enough, it will get the download count. Making a mod that gets atleast a decent download count is not hard at all as long as you know what you are doing & you pimp it off enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 Yeah, the only retail pc games that have many THOUSANDS of players are basically MMORPG's and Battlenet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagster Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Can you really sign a petition that makes someone think or work harder? I didn't know that. There needs to be about 10,000 people to sign that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tagster Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Double post edit. I was lagging that day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceButler14 Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Disgust at 1.04 eh? I got JO before 1.04 and that patch is what made me pick it up and try multiplayer again. I wasn't a noob and had played plenty of games before. The spinning backstab and the pull-bug, (which, with the new mechanics from JK, I did't realize was a bug for a while much to my frustration, yeah, so I'm slow...), made playing so frustrating I gave up and replayed sp and then played other things. Now I actually mosly play duel now, and I'm pretty decent. Just for the record, a lot of good players liked 1.04 and I'm sick of hearing that stupid whining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alegis Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 ---- comes from another planet ----- Aargh the whole SP/MP thing, I 've always seen MP as a secondary thing that uses elements from the SP. Yes that's right, elements from the SP..Models, textures etc.. You got a single player and you just add a MP to it by staying in the same theme (kinda difficult IMO to not have 'theme') The reason there was SP is because some years ago not everyone had internet and all that. And MP fun is depending on the community, amount of players, what kind of players..so normally you can't guarantee fun with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rii Posted December 24, 2003 Author Share Posted December 24, 2003 Originally posted by SpaceButler13 Disgust at 1.04 eh? I got JO before 1.04 and that patch is what made me pick it up and try multiplayer again. I wasn't a noob and had played plenty of games before. The spinning backstab and the pull-bug, (which, with the new mechanics from JK, I did't realize was a bug for a while much to my frustration, yeah, so I'm slow...), made playing so frustrating I gave up and replayed sp and then played other things. Now I actually mosly play duel now, and I'm pretty decent. Just for the record, a lot of good players liked 1.04 and I'm sick of hearing that stupid whining. Alright, for those who obviously DID NOT read the post, or not even half-ass skimmed it... "the initial disgust" w/ 1.04 JK2 was the public opinion at the dramatic changes that were made from 1.03 to 1.04.... here's a DIRECT G**D*** quote from the post: "Despite the initial disgust at v1.04 of JO MP, it was a very stable and elegant system that achieved the greatest hopes of those who stuck with JK2 since its release, growth, and evolution." Let me break this down for those who can't read, won't read, and those who argue just for the sake of being obstinate: At first, public opinion of jk2 1.04 was a little less than open-armed acceptance... but the veterans, those who played for challenge as opposed to whoring... really respected and appreciated those changes.... AKA : LOVED 1.04, after getting to know and understand it. As a reminder, the main driving force behind this petition's beginning was to get a public response about the things they dislike and the things they like about the current titles, and work together to help formulate an all-around balanced and well designed MP Star Wars game... I can tell most of the people that have replied or posted in this thread haven't even read the details of the petition mission... the petition isn't what matters, what matters are the constructive criticisms, and the productive/creative ideas to get the word out there that LA is on the right track, but they're not there yet. For those that refer to the petition or thread as a whining session or a SW game bashing moment, its not that at all... the positives and strong suits of their current titles are mentioned just as often as the weaknesses and inconsistencies those strong points coexist with. A petition is a formal public claim, that provides sources to fortify that claim (signatures in this case). A petition at its best is just a formal organization of people's interests and concerns regarding a common topic/goal. Just because a petition is released, that doesn't mean anyone is bound to care about it... things of a contrary nature are subpoenas and warrants... a petition is humble. I agree that SP is the cash cow for just about ANY game... but that doesn't necessarily have to be the rule from now to the end of time... an amazing experience is all it takes to open minds. As for the "speed" issue: I went back and reread the statement regarding speed to derive where "gamespeed" was the issue... I don't recall nor do I see gamespeed scripting being involved in any form in the statement. To clarify an already very simple statement: "JK2 MP was unscripted, live, fast, and unpredictable... at times utter chaos, at others a cerebral challenge with equally witted and talented opponents. The extra animations of SP were slimmed down dramatically,".... I don't see "gamespeed".. hmm. That quote is direct from the massive post from before that everyone is complaining about, that apparently none of them read to begin with... this indicates that the animations were slimmed in JK2mp, not that the gamespeed was amped... as supported by the following quote about JKAmp: "Unfortunately, where JK2 MP was tuned for speed and user self-dependence... JKA MP Combat is not. In attempts to reduce the clipping and collision errors, they maintained the "slow and steady" pace of SP. The speed of execution of moves is paced the same as SP, and this keeps the seemingly stronger new weapons under a certain control, but can anyone admit that fighting with the single saber in JKA is even remotely comparable to fighting with SS in JK2 MP?".... a slight mix of fact and opinion... And here's a perfect example of the animation differences of SP vs MP in either JK2 or JKA... where the Yellow DFA in both SP games is graceful, the animation of the move is much heavier and slower to retain the elegance... but in JK2MP 1.04 there is a VERY noticable trimming of the extra frames used to animate the DFA (which in turn speeds up the move, and allows you to keep moving and not slow down the fight, all without changing "gamespeed")... in JKA there is absolutely no change from SP to MP, but in JKA a HUGE difference from JK2: "The yellow DFA in JKA is numbed, making it executable without targeting the enemy," again... FACT. JK2 required you to target your opponent, AND be within range. JKA does NOT. I used unedited quotes from that initial post that have the same meaning, and still portray precisely the same message... I just don't see the whole argument with the speed thing above all else.... it's not opinion, its fact... a fact that is extremely evident to those who open their eyes and minds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marker0077 Posted December 25, 2003 Share Posted December 25, 2003 Originally posted by rii Let me break this down for those who can't read, won't read, and those who argue just for the sake of being obstinate: First off, calm down killer. No ones attacking you & even if they were, don't reduce yourself to their level. Lets try & keep things civilized (not implying you were being uncivil) please. Now perhaps how you are saying something you might be meaning it one way but SpaceButler13 was obviously taking it another & TBH, so was I. That's just how it sounded to us. Just a bit of miscommunication there, nothing to get riled up over. I realize his somewhat rude post is probably what you are upset about but keep in mind, most of the people in here are in the 14 to 26 year old range. Originally posted by rii As a reminder, the main driving force behind this petition's beginning was to get a public response about the things they dislike and the things they like about the current titles, and work together to help formulate an all-around balanced and well designed MP Star Wars game... Ya but you're going about it all the wrong way. You're doing a petition. If you want to discuss improvement ideas that's one thing, you're telling them to make changes like make the game MP only which is absolutely insane. SP is what makes them their money, there's no way in hell that's going to happen. Contructive critisism is starting a thread, getting feedback from the community, maybe even voting on some options, then take those concepts & suggestions & whatnot & send it to Raven but in all reality, even that isn't going to really make them make changes. Look at JK3. It's basically a souped up JK2 with JediMod & some other various improvements. If you want Raven to make some changes, mod the game & get people into it. That'll get their attention. It appearently did with JK2. Originally posted by rii A petition is a formal public claim, that provides sources to fortify that claim (signatures in this case). There are no signatures with those types of petitions & with the way those petitions are setup, there is no way to verify that the same person didn't sign a few times or more. Even if there was though, I doubt it would make a difference. Originally posted by rii I agree that SP is the cash cow for just about ANY game... but that doesn't necessarily have to be the rule from now to the end of time... Sure it does, SP will always be the cash cow at least until internet with consoles become more common place. People will always need a PC/console to play the game. They don't need an internet connection to play & forcing them into a "MP only" game is a big turn off for alot of people. It's less flexibility any way you look at it. That's not smart IMO. Most people don't even know how to use the internet like we do, so they use console system on the net to simplify things & that works for them. Originally posted by rii The extra animations of SP were slimmed down dramatically Actually there is about 3,000 to 5,000 more animation frames in JK3 than in JK2 with the actual player models that we use as ourself. I'm not sure which animations you are referring to. Anyways, this is where I stopped reading. I've been up all night looking into a variety of development stuff like creating new player animations, bettering the weapon models, etc; etc. so I apologize if a bit of what I've posted doesn't make sense. The bottom line here is I understand that you think there are certain things that can be improved, which you are right but guess what - there's *always* going to be room for improvement, there's *always* going to be a problem. Some of what you are saying we don't agree with, some of it we do, but you went off & made this petition & expect people to sign it without communicating with the public first. I would think some of what is said here has changed your opinion on a matter or two, what are you going to do now, change the terms of the petition? The petition is just the wrong way of going about it IMO. There are more fun & effective ways to improve the game. If you really want to make some of this a reality I suggest you go to the OJP forums & submit ideas & if they are good, one of us will mod it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wingzro Posted December 25, 2003 Share Posted December 25, 2003 skimming through this petition idea, some parts I agree while others I don't. MP is fun however, like stated before, depends on who just happens to be online. you might end up playing with a bunch of jack asses, which has happened to me a few times when playing MP games. I can't always just phone up my buddies and tell them to get online to play a little MP. MP is fun yes, but a game really shouldn't be ALL MP, that just puts me down on a game. if a game were totally kick ass with beautiful graphics, spectacular gameplay, awesome sound, etc. and were only available for MP I would probably still try it out, but I probably wouldn't play as much. MP is repetitive at times; go online, find a server, customize your junk, run around, shoot/slash, kill, die, next, etc. I don't know about you, but I like to play games with a story/plotline; which SP can provide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted December 25, 2003 Share Posted December 25, 2003 Originally posted by rii I agree that SP is the cash cow for just about ANY game... but that doesn't necessarily have to be the rule from now to the end of time... an amazing experience is all it takes to open minds. True, but so far that amazing experience has been to be called "gey lamerz" by "l33t d00ds". Indeed technology will advance to deliver greater and greater online experiences, but ultimately the MP experience relies on other players to create the immersion (some care more about this than others). It is impossible for all players to play in a way that everyone else wants. Expectations and views differ, and thus there will always be players who break the immersion of other players. This will always be the case. Not only will technology continue to improve online experiences, but it will for singleplayer experiences as well. Worlds will become more and more convincing, and more importantly AI and NPCs will be ever more convincing. At some point, singleplayer opponants and allies will be indistinguishable (or at least very close to it) from real people. This will create worlds that are much more immersive than online games can ever be. That is why I suspect that SP games will remain the cashcow for a long time to come. That being said, it by no means limits the potential success of MP games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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