Dark Forces 2 Mod

[Shamus]

The thought of doing a DF2 total conversion has crossed my mind more than once... As a matter of fact, I've done some work towards that goal, since it seemed that nobody else had had the same bright idea that I had. Here's what's been done:

• Converted all the cutscenes from Smacker format to ROQ
  
• Written some tools to convert a JKL file to a MAP file, including textures
  
• Made some preliminary progress with model conversion tools and some 3D0 to MD3 conversions
  
• Ripped all the CD music to WAV format, ready for conversion to MP3/OGG/whatever JA uses
  

Of course, all is not trouble free in paradise. The cutscenes went up in size during the conversion--the 25 videos now take up 793 megabytes of disk space. Part of the reason for this is the 15 fps -> 30 fps upconversion, part of it was the letterboxing that was necessary to preserve the aspect ratio of the videos, some of it is no doubt due to the fact that I had to work from the lossy material generated from the SMK files instead of LucasArts' source material. C'est la vie.

 

There are problems with the original levels as well--it seems that the original JKL format didn't do any spatial checking. What this means is that you could design a level with what looked like a tiny room on the outside with a huge room on the inside (while this facility could be cool if done correctly/well, it's a disaster for doing a straight conversion). The other thing is that the JK mappers relied on "sky" background textures to block out pieces of the level that they didn't want the player to see. Imagine my disappointment when walking around Nar Shadda and seeing these defects (I thought the conversion would be straightforward--ha!). Lighting is a whole other ball of wax. Another problem was that as q3map2 got up in revisions, it would break my converted maps (light leaks, or so it thought--it reports them even when I make the brushes overlap ).

 

What I had originally hoped for was a way for someone with the original discs to be able to run a program and have it do the conversions for you, but I now know that that point of view was a little naive. So now the purpose of it is to have a starting point from which to build on in the course of doing a total conversion (this includes model conversions as well). Some of the levels are pretty bad (08escape88 comes to mind with lots of overlapping geometry) while some of the others look pretty darned impressive, like I remembered them in the awful original. One of the things that spurred me on to do this was that while JO had some impressive levels, none of them seemed to have the incredible scope that some of the original levels in JK had.

 

Anyway, I thought I'd throw that in. In other words, I'm willing and ready to help with the conversion in any way I can.

[Shamus]

It occurred to me that some of you may have your doubts about my claims, so I thought I'd share a few screenshots. Do any of these look familiar?

 

 

As you can see, the conversion tool does a fairly good job, imperfect as it is. However, for some reason, the BSPs are showing a HOM effect for the star BG even though I copied the .shader file over--that's why there aren't any sky shots (maybe the syntax is different between JO and JA?). But you can get a sense of the scale that I was talking about in the previous post.

[Ack]

cool...

 

'Nuff said

[N3G1@]

Nice! However yes, some JO shader lines work in a different way in JA...

[Locutus_of_Borg]

Very very cool. Although the whole point of a recreation MOD is to make the game better, both in graphics and gameplay. So simply converting the maps from JK1 to JA, while still very very cool, isn't really that great for improving the gameplay etc.

Btw, has there been any developments on this MOD recently? I haven't heard anything in ages.

[J_Bond]

I also think that just converting the old maps from JK1 to JA isn't a real solution, but it's the best until we see that the project is going on. So, good job, Shamus!

[Shamus]

Like I said earlier, it's not meant as the final product but as a starting point. I have no idea what assets have been created already, but I thought my programs could be useful--instead of having to start from scratch, you would be able to start with something. Even if it were simply for comparison. Not to mention saving someone from having to re-do the Smacker -> ROQ conversions (which took long enough!).

 

Again, the work has already been done in this area, so why not take advantage of it?

 

BTW, here is a screenshot showing one of the geometry problems I was talking about:

 

 

What this shows is that the levels can't be 100% identical to the originals (in the original, you wouldn't be able to see the landing pad because the "sky" texture would block it from view).

[Obi_Kwiet]

Awesome!! That would be so cool to have your JA charicter in with the origanal game! Any chance for haveing origanal NPC's too? When will it be done? Very cool! About the sykbox problem, I know you can use distance cull to make things visable further away. couldnt you make them becaome invisable sooner? Oh, I think I'd rather (or at least have the option) of playing with the new charicter with the old graphis. That would rock!

[Disco Hips]

Shamus.

 

that's some amazing work you've pulled off there, which in my not so technical opinion, bodes well for a remake of jedi knight. after patting you on the back, i was wondering if you might share with us what would be required to do to the maps after the conversion process?

 

will it be possible to 'enhance' the maps, to make them more architecurally ornate?

 

of the problems you've mentioned, what are your proposed fixes?

 

and to the rest of the potential remake team; has anyone got in contact with the previous group, or even the dark forces group, and asked politely for the use of their already created assets? models, statics, textures etc.

 

i am not a mapper, so excuse me if these questions appear paralysingly obvious or redundent. i really liked the game at the time, mainly for the vast levels which conjured a real sense of vertigo. shamus' work brings a remake project that bit closer (i think)...

 

cheers, and good luck with future endeavours.

[Shamus]

Well, after converting the maps there would be the usual round of fun stuff like texture recreation (which to me seems like the bulk of the work), model tweaking, lighting, etc. It will of course be possible to tweak the levels to make them more architecturally pleasing and detailed.

 

As far as fixing the original JK mapper's laziness goes--well... There's no doubt that some of the geometry of the levels will have to move around a bit, and in some cases (Nar Shadda, see above screenshot) have to move considerably. Overall, though, it should be possible to keep things pretty much the same.

 

Again, what my tools provide is more of a starting point, which, IMO, is better than nothing.

 

If you really want to help out, I would suggest that you start with texture recreation, since there are around 2,000 or so to do. It would be nice, though, to know what, if any, progress has been made in this area before you start!

 

So how about it Mr._Katarn? What's the status of the mod? Are you starting from scratch or do you have the previous modders assets? If you do, how much did they get done?

[Disco Hips]

Originally posted by Shamus

 

If you really want to help out, I would suggest that you start with texture recreation, since there are around 2,000 or so to do. It would be nice, though, to know what, if any, progress has been made in this area before you start!

 

 

one of the things that has always baffled me about MOD development is this whole "reinvent the wheel" mentality. I'm sure, although i would not like to wager, that there must be some texture assets that can be 'borrowed' from the dark forces project; if asked nicely of course. ditto the numerous hi-def character models that inevitably get made for DM etc: Vader, Mara Jade et al. maybe i'm missing something, but i fail to see why it would not be a time-saving benefit to ask the authors of the already created assets for the use of their work. the flipside to this i guess is that some folk wish to develop MODS to learn various skills, which is a fair enough argument if this is so desired.

 

regarding the previous MOD team, as headed by someone with the 'reaper' moniker: from what i gather, they had made some progress on the first level, maybe some others, and some character models were finished (jerec being one i distinctly remember), they also modeled a number of different sabres for each of the dark jedi. this may all be moot if shamus' tools are used. as for actual texture recreation, i couldn't tell if they had used stock JO assets, or created their own. maybe 'reaper' will read this and elaborate, i'm sure(ish) that they intimated some sort of release of what they had done so far, but i would not quote me on that.

 

all in all, i'm of the opinion that shamus' work would be of infinite value to any aspiring recreation project. the amount of grunt work that they could, and should save, makes much time-management sense. as shamus points out though, texture recreation would be a biggie, although i would dearly love to see some of the vast levels make as much use, architecturally, of the enhanced engine. same with lighting as well. here's hoping that something transpires of this thread...

[Disco Hips]

i know it's bad form to reply to one's self on a board, but could i just ask shamus to post more pics of levels, specifically where errors are most glaring. i think you mentioned the falling ship level as one example.

 

obviously, don't feel compelled if hosting issues are to blame, but it would be interesting to get a scope for what the issues are.

 

thanks in advance

[Darth Oosha]

Why shouldn't you be able to see that landing pad? Isn't it more interesting when you can see how the whole level fits together on a grand scale?

 

I'm pretty sure the original JK team were careful not to make anything that looked like the resources from DF. Even the Crow was bizzarely transformed, although the pistol wasn't as bad.

 

It would be nice if you could write a program to have the installer convert the textures directly from the JK files. It wouldn't look like a 2005 game, but it would have a chance of actually being out that quickly. I assume there's some huge obstacle that makes it just a dream. Or maybe one of you just really, really hates low-res textures, so he can't even stand playing old JK anymore, and that's part of why he wants the mod to happen.

 

I remember the original JK textures being quite blandly drawn, regardless of the technical resolution, but at least they cover the walls.

 

I don't remember if anyone said this before, but have you considered doing in-engine cutscenes?

[The_One]

Just a few things...

 

a) The Dark Forces textures are completely different to the Jedi Knight textures - there may be a couple similar, but on the whole, they are different.

 

b) Texture converters are never a very good idea. We tried that with our mod, and in the end we had to resort to re-creating all 900 (now closer to 1000) textures from scratch. Admittedly, the DF textures are far lower resolution than the JK ones...

 

c) If you say there are 3000 textures in Jedi Knight, well, it's going to be extremely tricky to re-create all of them. Bear in mind this mod has been going for over 2 years now, and we are about 80% of the way through our 1000 textures. Note that there are more texture artists on the team than anything else...

 

d) Don't underestimate textures. Textures really provide the look and feel for a game, and within that game, the individual levels. I remember our very first build of Secbase used Jedi Outcast textures, and it looked more like a JO level than a DF one.

 

e) Finally, once we are done with the mod, we have an easy way to share our textures with other mod teams. Basically, in house, we have developed an online Texture Database - thanks to Karrackoo. With this tool, we can catalogue all our textures, compare them to the original artwork, and monitor our progress. It really is a great asset, and something we intend to make available to the public at a later date...

[Ack]

Uhm.. what do one need for texturing? ´Cause,,, If all one needs is like... Photoshop... I'm in!

[The_One]

Originally posted by Ackehallgren

Uhm.. what do one need for texturing? ´Cause,,, If all one needs is like... Photoshop... I'm in!

 

Well, Photoshop will only get you so far.

 

You need some talent too A basic understanding of the workings of alpha maps is also needed when creating textures. I believe there are a couple of tutorials on the Dark Forces Mod website, actually, which should help you get started

[Disco Hips]

first off, i'd like to apologise if i didn't make myself clear. i say 'if', but i know fine well that i didn't on hindsight.

 

to 'the one', i can see that my comment could be construed along the lines of "well, just reuse what ever old textures you can get, even the original source textures...", however i can only reiterate that this was not my original thought, even if it did come across like that. i'm with you entirely in recreating all the textures to a modern and contemporary standard; it kind of defeats the point of a recreation project if you don't take advantage of what modern engines can do. although i admit surprise that there isn't much more overlap in the textures used between the two games. i'd have thought that the streets of nar shardaa would use fairly identical texture sets, although i admit i am a green with respects MOD development, so i wont try and be too authoritative on a subject i know precious little about

 

however, the lesson i've learnt is to proof my comments a bit more next time.

 

take care.

[Ack]

Originally posted by The_One

Well, Photoshop will only get you so far.

 

You need some talent too A basic understanding of the workings of alpha maps is also needed when creating textures. I believe there are a couple of tutorials on the Dark Forces Mod website, actually, which should help you get started

 

Photoshop [Check]

Talent [uuhm... Check?]

That other stuff... [what?]

[Locutus_of_Borg]

Well at the moment the main concern should be arranging a website. And from the looks of things, not a whole has been done to accomplish this. Is Mr Katarn even still around? He hasn't posted in an awfully long time. Disappearing is not a particulary good thing for the leader of a Mod to do. For example the Voyager Insurrection (Star Trek: Elite Force) mod died because the leader/main scripter disappeared. So Mr Katarn, could we please have an indication that

a) Your still alive

b) What work has been done so far

 

Sorry for the long 'speech' but I've had things like this happen too many times before.

[Ack]

Is Katarn making the website too?

[Disco Hips]

Originally posted by Locutus_of_Borg

Well at the moment the main concern should be arranging a website. And from the looks of things, not a whole has been done to accomplish this. Is Mr Katarn even still around? He hasn't posted in an awfully long time.

 

i'll second this and ask for katarn to make an appearance, just to let us know what his next move is. has anyone heard anything from him recently?

 

regarding a website, it's important in so much as it can provide a 'face' to the project. which is good for recruitment. at the moment it is some wishful thinking on a message board. hardly inspiring stuff for potential coders, artists etc...

[Shamus]

Well, I would offer to host it, but I don't know if my poor little server could handle the load y'all would likely put it through. We could try it and see what happens...

[reaper1576]

Shamus are you using that import plugin from droid stuff? (Architecture is a major give away see i spent so much time on that map also it looks as if you used the plugin to convert the bmp's to jpg) If so be warned it will give you a lot of problems it doesnt import 100% and leaves a lot of holes in the maps. Also to cover our selfs with the EULA we created levels from scratch so you dont end up with LEC on your case. most important thing with this mod is gonna be how it looks people and extreamly high expectations and also want a highly polished professinal look.

[Shamus]

No, I wrote my own tool (called, oddly enough, jkl2map) which does a much better job than what droid wrote (I didn't even know that droid had written a tool to do that until a week ago). I've said this before but I guess it bears repeating: It's not meant to create a finished product but to be a starting point. If I recall correctly, droid's tool didn't automatically import/translate 3DOs to MD3s, like jkl2map does:

 

 

The maps that jkl2map makes will need a lot of tweaking so that the end result won't be a literal copy of LEC's original levels anyway (I'm much more worried about cutscenes and music quite frankly!).

 

Even if you are starting from scratch, you still have to reference the original levels, so why not automate that process a little? :-)

 

BTW, are you one of the original DF2 MOD writers? If so, what did you guys get done? Inquiring minds want to know!

[Disco Hips]

shamus, perhaps you should start to assemble a very basic website and advertise for talent, in lieu of mr katarn? nothing that couldn't be transferred at a later date if you don't fancy the burden.

 

from what the_one has intimated, texture artists are a scarce commodity, so that could be a valuable area to try and tap. coding will require some looking at, however from what i understand, the dark forces MOD have got folk scanning the paltry SDK they were given from raven/LEC so they may be the people to ask for advice.

 

apart from all that, take the bull by the horns and make the first step, you've probably contributed the most so far anyway (excluding reaper's team )

 

take care, and good luck