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Trying Not to be Discouraged...


Jedi_Vogel

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I must stop looking at the maps that are reviewed... I see maps, I think "woah..." and then I see Wedge or GothiX, for very good reasons, giving maps 5 or 6 out of 10...baaaaah.

 

As I learn more I progress, but sometimes you've either got it or you haven't right?

 

How do people NOT get discouraged when working on a map, which takes hours?

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I guess I should be more patient, only been learning for 3 months and I'm working on my first serious map. I thought I'd post screen shots once in a while, but seeing how "good" screenshots receive "negative" feedback, I'll keep the screenies as a personal diary :S

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Also, these are maps by people who know the tools very, very well. What i've learnt is, no matter how good a mapper you think you are, there is always someone better.

 

What I would advise you do is look at the ones that are rated 1 or 2 - these usually are REALLY crap and makes you think "I can do much better than that" - a sort of encouragment.

 

What I would suggest is not to try anything too fancy to start with - keep it simple and make sure everything works correctly. A simple, well made, bug free map is usually a lot more fun than an overly complex, bug-ridden affair.

 

Learn new features by creating test maps for them and only include these features in release maps once fully mastered. Just learn one thing at a time and you'll find by the 4th or 5th map, you'll be up there with the veterans.

 

Good luck and keep on trucking:)

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I only say one thing: Nobody should take this so seriously or personally. There are hundreds of people visiting this place, posting randomly here and there. If some nameless person gives you undeserved negative feedback... so what?

 

It's a dangerous thing in this world to lull yourself into expecting a certain kind of feedback or answer. Just sort the clutter and pick what you came looking for - be it praise to warm your long suffering heart, or be it constructive criticism that really helps you.

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Originally posted by lassev

If some nameless person gives you undeserved negative feedback... so what?

 

Mr. Lassev is, as always, absolutely right. Some people make it their mission to go round the various forums and criticise people's hard work without contributing anything.

 

What I would do if I was you, if you really are affected by these idiots who flame, is to do a search for the work they've done. If it's a load of toss, ignore them.

 

However, most of the mappers that are considered to be very good (lassev, mslaf, wade, wedge, rgoer, torchy, gothiX etc*) will only criticise if needed and then it will be constructive - most of us here love this game and only want to see it improved upon.

 

Also, congrats to rgoer who is now offically a part of the Raven team. Jammy bastard!

 

 

*sorry if i've missed you out

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Originally posted by lassev

Just sort the clutter and pick what you came looking for - be it praise to warm your long suffering heart, or be it constructive criticism that really helps you.

 

I don't come searching for praise to warm my long suffering heart. lol

 

I expect criticism, especially when I want to improve, I just see those who do a darned good job (in my newish eyes) and get badly rated.

 

There are those who's opinions I've come to respect in here and I will take those opinions seriously when the time comes, for I know they will be well-founded, knowledge-based and experience-enriched constructive criticism.

 

But sometimes I find it hard to keep going when I see the quality others are churning out, that's all. I will keep going and just try to improve on MY last effort, not on those of others...

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Yeh, I totally agree with Codja and Lassev here; don't take criticism too personally. The people who get personal or are overly harsh are morons whose opinions do not deserve recognition or consideration, in my opinion. The main benchmark for worthwhile criticism is that its based vaguely on reality, and is put in a constructive or reasonable manner :)

 

Also, try not to feel too downhearted about your level designing skills compared to others. I know guys whose mapping skills outstrip mine so completely that its like they're operating on a whole different level, my levels pale in comparison to theirs but...so what? For me, like you said, as long as I feel I'm improving as I go along, thats good enough!

 

Guys like Wedge, Gothix and Rgoer have been mapping for years - and they didn't create masterpieces as soon as they started, I assure you :)

 

I know I'm not a super mapping legend like those others that have been mentioned, but I think I'm OK - and every now and again I like to look at this page, just to prevent me getting too big-headed...

 

http://www.massassi.net/levels/files/2213.shtml

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Originally posted by Jedi_Vogel

I must stop looking at the maps that are reviewed... I see maps, I think "woah..." and then I see Wedge or GothiX, for very good reasons, giving maps 5 or 6 out of 10...baaaaah.

 

As I learn more I progress, but sometimes you've either got it or you haven't right?

 

How do people NOT get discouraged when working on a map, which takes hours?

I assume you're talking about Map-Review ratings, and not, say PCGM or JK3files user ratings, which can be very fickle.

 

Yeah, it's tough... a lot of beginning-to-middle stage mappers produce some good-looking stuff, but really leave things unfinished or throw in lots of vehicles, teleporters, func_ entities of every description, and such just because they thing they look cool. One very good example can be seen in my recent review of the Byss Outpost. At first, I really liked this map. I mean I really liked the actual Byss part of it. Solidly built, lots of detail, looked like Raven's Byss map. That's hard to do, represents a lot of solid effort, and was, in my opinion, a very good small-FFA map in my opinion...but then the author went and made 4 totally unrelated "duel areas" just because he could, and my eyes rolled up in my head. The whole map was spoiled for me just because a "DUDE omg we can tauntaunjoust LOLOL" section was included. And it was a half-baked part of the map at that, just a basic box with some doors and tauntauns.

 

It's not quite that you "get it" or "don't." I think everyone gets better as time goes on, if they're willing to put forth the effort. I'm 19, so a tad more mature than many of the "noob" mappers, and I'm not as easily impressed. The problem is, some halfassed map appears on PCGM and gets rave reviews by lots of younger players who don't map, think it's "cool," and don't recognize that it could be SO much more polished than it is (eg, KOTOR flight school, Nathan's Helm's Deep, FoU Hangout, etc). You can spot them in the comments because they don't supply any useful comment of the map, just "AWEZOME 100/10 keep it up yo." Then the mappers have their egos inflated and are encouraged to produce more of the same, rather than really putting forth the effort to make a truly great map. There's a reason LDJ's maps are few and far between (though he's kinda gone downhill from Duel of the Fates and Bespin).

 

It is hard to not get discouraged, because good maps take time. I've been working on my next map since at least Dec '03. What people need to learn to do is to really thoroughly explore their idea before ever opening Radiant, map it out, and then keep plugging away at it until it's really polished enough to release. Too many people release half-assed maps just because they can't stand not having a file submitted. Another thing you have to do is accept constructive criticism and act on it, those giving the criticims really do want maps to come out nicely!

 

If you're interested, I've written a page on general mapping hints and an article on mapping with a coherent atmosphere. They summarize my views pretty well.

 

Another thing you should definitely do: head over to the showcase forum and show off some of your shots! That is *the* best way to get good feedback and suggestions. If we seem harsh at first, just keep plugging away, and remember not to just disregard suggestions out of hand!

 

Also, do a private or public beta before you release on a major file site. That will catch any major or minor errors before the community gets to!

 

GOOD LUCK!

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If you want good practice, I recommend checking out the maps by Ravensoft, and the ones reviewed at MR with scores of 8+, and try to recreate them. Don't release them, just use them for personal practice - I've learnt lots from doing this with baseq3 maps.

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Originally posted by Codja X

Also, these are maps by people who know the tools very, very well. What i've learnt is, no matter how good a mapper you think you are, there is always someone better.

 

UNLESS your name is rgoer and you get hired at RAVENSOFT!

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Rgoer has been around the Q3 modding scene for ages, and has always been one of the best mappers around, with great knowledge of the engine. If anyone deserves to work at Raven (or Id, because he's got the talent for it), it should be him.

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Wedge- thanks for that :) I read the lot and yeah I will keep going, I'm in this for the long-haul and won't release it until I think it's worth it and until I've gotten some constructive criticism from showcase forum...which I won't post screenies until I've done the first major stage the map. And man, that map you're working on it amazing Wedge :D

 

 

GothiX- ok I'll give it a go and see what happens :D

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The only problem you've got now is the weight of expectation on your shoulders.

 

I'm personally looking forward to your 1st release - I think it's going to be a corker. So get keep your head down and get cracking!

 

The more time spent on these boards means less time making maps:) :)

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Originally posted by GothiX

Rgoer has been around the Q3 modding scene for ages, and has always been one of the best mappers around, with great knowledge of the engine. If anyone deserves to work at Raven (or Id, because he's got the talent for it), it should be him.

 

ROFL!! Gothix, rgoer and I started mapping around the same time. In fact he asked me a few questions about mapping when JK2 was still in it's infancy. But as you have witnessed his understanding of how things work far surpases my abilities. I believe I was the only person to test his chapel map when he first started it. Too bad I don't have it anymore. :ball: It was a beautiful creation to start off. Nothing like it is today. It had amazing curves around the main duel arena. I don't think rgoer thinks too highly of me anymore...... :p

 

Roxstar, in rgoers case I think Raven may have offered him a job I don't know. But in KOTOR Mr. Jays case I think he applied to RAVEN, which you could do also. ;)

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Originally posted by lauser

ROFL!! Gothix, rgoer and I started mapping around the same time. In fact he asked me a few questions about mapping when JK2 was still in it's infancy. But as you have witnessed his understanding of how things work far surpases my abilities.

 

When he left you, he was but the learner, but now, he is the master etc...:)

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