Republicans Come here

[SkinWalker]

Yaebginn, your replies are worthless if you don't read the material I post or look at the citations I leave. Particularly with regard to NCLBA.

 

But then, I get the same types of responses from believers in pseudoscience and the paranormal, which I actively debate at places like the sciforums.com. Their belief systems override their critical thinking skills and the only data that are relevant are the ones that support their preconceived conclusions.

 

Often these beliefs are passed on generationally, which is what I would imagine is occuring with you. Your parents (likely your father) are probably hard-line republicans and buy into the republican rhetoric unquestionably... therefore you do as well...

 

Questioning the government and holding government officials accountable to their actions is an American tradition and one of the more patriotic actions one can take. I have no party loyalties when it comes to governing our nation, I think those that have the responsibility to do it, do so at the pleasure of the people. If we accept their ideologies and methodologies without questioning the validity of either, then we are unpatriotic indeed.

 

I see the valid points of the Republican politicians in the various offices. But at this time in our nation's development, we need wisdom not simply might and bold action. Bush and the self-described "neo-conservatives" in his administration are abandoning traditional conservative values in favor of seeking status and power. The evidence for this is in their own rhetoric and actions.

 

Our nation's continued status in the world isn't guarenteed, and we'd be fools to think so. The current state of our educational system will ensure that science and technology jobs will go overseas to other nations like Singapore and Denmark. Innovation and discovery will belong to other nations. We will fast become a nation dependant upon the rest of the world and may even find ourselves conquered. This has been the fate of the greatest nations of the past, and there is no indication that such a fates no long await those that become complacent and refuse to progress with the world in a balanced way.

 

[/rant]

[ET Warrior]

Originally posted by Alegis Gensan

you can accidentally kill someone. traffic accidents are not on purpose, not murder

 

Yeah, but those accidental kills usually yield manslaughter charges.

 

well my opinion on the war, i think USA has the rights to do this all, terrorism attacked THEM. (yes, 9-11) and they should do something back.

 

You're right, the terrorists DID attack us. Which is why I supported a war in AFGHANISTAN, where the terrorists actually WERE. I do NOT support a War in Iraq, because this war is hindering the war on terrorism, not helping.

 

Schools have multiple fundraisers and often, for starters. Um, what else, chariteis often give to schools. the FL lotto gives a certain percentage of its profits to school.

 

Yeah, the schools were doing all those things for a long time, and they had just enough to pay for what they've always paid for. NCLBA means that schools NEED MORE MONEY, and the only way to do it is through higher property taxes, which DOES screw over little business. The fact that you refuse to accept or care about that is typical of the neo-conservative mind-set. Only big business matters

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by Alegis Gensan

well my opinion on the war, i think USA has the rights to do this all, terrorism attacked THEM.

 

And yet, Iraq wasn't the terrorists. The terrorists were Al Qaeda and based in Afgahnistan. We began a campaign there then abandoned it for Iraq. A goal of the neo-conservatives prior to the 9/11 attack.

 

Originally posted by Alegis Gensan

Iraq was under dictatorship, nothing else worked or happened, this did.

 

So are all the dictatorships of the world now on the list for preemptive strike? Does the United States have the right or even the obligation to the rest of the world to attack the nations we deem as having inappropriate governments? Where is the line drawn?

 

Originally posted by Alegis Gensan

Those defending iraq now arent even iraqi civilians, they're terrorists. Iraq is a breeding place for terrorists.

 

Only because the United States allowed this to occur with the incompetant planning of the Bush administration. You're right Yaebginn, Bush does deserve the credit for "taking out Iraq." He also deserves the credit for the incompetence that has led to the deaths of nearly 1000 U.S. servicemen and countless other coalition members and Iraqi civilians, not to mention the thousands of each that were wounded with life-long injuries.

 

The insurgents in Iraq are only there because of our inability to secure the nation's borders and the attack itself, which angered the Arab world as one that was viewed as "Christian vs. Muslim."

[jack "odc" one.]

Originally posted by yaebginn

jack- ah, the youth, always trying to rebel. well, if you're going to live on this world, you are going to have to obey. Eventually, you have to obey someone, your parents, your boss.

1. I am not a 'youngling'.

2. I don't have to obey, i mainly have to think about what i am doing. That means not i cannot or don't want to cooperate with other people or that i am not doing it, wether they are my boss, mother or my government (which is btw. chosen by me and my folksmen). That has nothing to do with rebelling. I am not 'anti-anything' as you may have noticed.

 

I frankly dont care what you THINK you are going to do, because I assure you, if you go through life with that attitude, you're going to be miserable.

Frankly, life isn't about obeying, it is about RESPECT. My life is fine. I have a job, my boss respects me and my work, because i don't have "that attitude" you seem to mention here.

 

-Then the mother of that terrorist would be wrong. He wasnt murder simply by rules of war.

The point is, any loving mother will consider it as murder, if her child is killed.

 

- But you need authority to be given the right to tell someone to kill another. The only authority your mom has is over you. And that onyl comes with that she gave birth to you. No REAL authority. not over someones life, anyway.

NOONE has the right to say someone has the right to live or not. NOONE.

And my mom hasn't authority over me because she gave birth to me. That means nothing. She has 'authoritiy' over me as far as i give it to her. And i give it because she always treated me with respect, she gave me a home and teached me a lot. She loved me and gave me a good start into this life. I respect her for that, i respect her so much that i listen to her advices and what else she has to say. AND, what i find most important, she respects me. She listens to me, and respects and tolerates my opinions, even if they differ from her's. She even supports them. THAT is, what life is really about. RESPECT, TOLERANCE, EXCHANGE and KNOWLEDGE. NOT OBEYING!

 

And if your boss, government or whoever ever says "i sanction the killing of jack", MY MOTHER will consider it murder. And still the only thing that will have happened is MY HUMAN LIFE WAS TAKEN BY ANOTHER HUMAN. And that makes it pointless if it's killing or murder.

 

I hope you now come near the point that i am making.

 

-The people murder in the holocaust were not soldiers, therefore, it was murder, because those are not in agreemnet with the rules. They were innocent civilians. they had no part in the war, yet hitler was evil and killed them anyway. that was murder because it wasnt fair game. they werent in the war, just bystanders targeted by an evil man.

Many of them were soldiers, also THAT was not the point. The POINT was that those people followed and obeyed the hitler regime which was sanctioning those happenings.

 

I simply tried to point out that the one says killing and the other murder to the same happening and therefore your whole "sanctioned killing" - "murder" argument is pointless.

 

Sorry, but i get the slight impression that you turn the words in my mouth just to avoid to think about it. I'd like you to stick on those points we are debating about without hopping to next nearest thing you can think of but has not much to do with it.

[reelguy227]

Originally posted by SkinWalker

 

At least hoaxes like the Shroud of Turin or the Image of Our Lady Guadalupe weren't listed.

 

 

 

Your superstitions are your right and I support that right for you to have them.

 

THEY ARENT SUPERSTITIONS!!! what the hek,my gosh .those are real they arent hoaxes ,and i suppose that fatima and lourdes were hoaxes also ?

[yaebginn]

I have done a bit of research about NCLBA, and we are all wrong. Bush doesnt fund anything, the congress does. so anything that was undefunded (if that is the case) has nothing to do with Bush, save for that he created the thing.

 

Jack- I never called you a youngling. and if you dont think you have to obey, thats your problem. I just wish I could be there when it bites you in the butt. If you think you dont have to obey, thne you do have 'that attitude'. and it seems you are anti-authority if you think you dont have to obey. no, an ignorant mother would call it murder. by definition, it would not be murder. And if the government sanctioned the killing of you(assuming you are named Jack) then you would have had to do something against its rules worthy of death. and I didnt put words in your mouth, ET said something about the holocaust, pay attention.

[ET Warrior]

Howsabout YOU pay attention. I haven't mentioned the holocaust once in any of my posts

 

So what you're saying Yaeb, is that if the US government had authorized a mission to go into Iraq and assasinate Saddam Hussein while he was sleeping, that wouldn't be murder? Even though it was in cold blood, and he wasn't a threat to that soldier? Because if you think that isn't murder, you have a very skewed concept of the world.

[yaebginn]

ok, then it WAS jack, so jack you were wrong in saying you said nothing about the holocaust as I was wrong for accusing ET. and it wouldnt be murder. It was sanctioned by the authority of the government (or would be if it happened) and he is a threat to other human beings. and I may have a skewed view to YOU and maybe a few others, but all you know about me, is what you've gathered from various debates and thread online. My view of the world is right, just as yours is left. its not neccessarily skewed, just slightly different than yours and those who believe what you believe, politcally and religiously. everyone has different views, I dont care whether or not you accept my views, but they are my views, and I'll keep them unless proven otherwise.

[ET Warrior]

Originally posted by yaebginn

and I'll keep them unless proven otherwise.

 

Which will never happen because you ignore any proof that has been given to you and contradicts your views.

[yaebginn]

what has been presented to give you that assumption?

[El Sitherino]

Originally posted by yaebginn

It was sanctioned by the authority of the government (or would be if it happened) and he is a threat to other human beings.

so the holocaust wasn't murder because it was sanctioned by the government?

 

 

Murder is killing in cold blood, sanctioned or not.

 

The only possible killing with a justifiable cause is self-defense. Pre-emptive is not self-defense. Self-Defense is when you defend yourself from an IMMEDIATE threat, such as a robber with a knife, or another kind of weapon, coming at you and you pull out a gun and shoot him/her. This is an understandable reason to kill. But to purposefully go out and kill someone in cold blood, knowing full well ahead of time you are going to kill them, is murder. Regardless of "government sanctioning".

 

Originally posted by yaebginn

what has been presented to give you that assumption?

 

I'd say atleast half this thread, and about 8/9 of skinwalkers posts.

[yaebginn]

Originally posted by InsaneSith

so the holocaust wasn't murder because it was sanctioned by the government?

 

 

Murder is killing in cold blood, sanctioned or not.

 

The only possible killing with a justifiable cause is self-defense. Pre-emptive is not self-defense. Self-Defense is when you defend yourself from an IMMEDIATE threat, such as a robber with a knife, or another kind of weapon, coming at you and you pull out a gun and shoot him/her. This is an understandable reason to kill. But to purposefully go out and kill someone in cold blood, knowing full well ahead of time you are going to kill them, is murder. Regardless of "government sanctioning".

 

 

 

I'd say atleast half this thread, and about 8/9 of skinwalkers posts.

 

ahh, then what about abortion? the baby cant defend his/her self. murder, pure and simple, according to your reasoning.

 

and certainly nothing you hve said has proved my views wrong. ET and Skin have maybe changed minor views, but not any views that I really care about, I cant even think of something they did prove me wrong about, maybe the way taxes are done, but I was not sure how they worked anyway, so I never really had a stance on that subject. and maybe sometihng with schools funding. but nothing really worth thinking about that would send my mind thinking a real different way. its still going on the same course. if you can think of anything else, enlighten me.

[El Sitherino]

no, because a fetus isn't alive.

 

You can't kill what isn't alive. I mean you can't kill a car.

[ET Warrior]

Originally posted by yaebginn

ahh, then what about abortion? the baby cant defend his/her self. murder, pure and simple, according to your reasoning.

 

Except according to our reasoning abortion occurs before a baby is a person, and so all you're doing is killing off cells. Which is not murder atall.

[yaebginn]

but a car cant become alive in a month or so, or however long it takes for a fetus to grow to be alive.

[ET Warrior]

But sperm can become life in 9 months if you give them the right conditions, yet we kill off millions of those suckers every day. That's not murder, it's just denying them the right conditions to become a baby. Same with abortion.l

[yaebginn]

no, because there is a good possibiliy that the sperm wont make it, with a fetus, its already definite.

[jack "odc" one.]

OK.

1. You said "Ah, the youth" in reply to my statement that i dont need to obey blindly. Then i said, i am no youngling which means i am not 'young'. Now you are saying you didnt?

 

2. Stop telling me i need to obey. Maybe we have different views what obeying is. But my meaning of obey is follow without thinking. I was in the army, i know what following an order is, but even in the army i can decide NOT to follow an order if it is against my humanity. THIS is a rule within the army of my country. So please stop acting as if you would know exactly what will happen or what is going on in my life. To obey blind is not helpful in any way, THAT is my view on things and i won't change them because of someone like you, who isn't going to change his views either. ALSO, please stop telling me i have an "attitude" just because of my standpoint.

 

3. AGAIN. Just because i don't obey blind, that does not mean i do not follow certain rules, do not have respect for other people, do not support others or anything liek that. I just means I THINK ABOUT WHAT I AM DOING, BEFORE I AM DOING IT AND I AM NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING JUST BECAUSE EVERYONE ELSE IS DOING IT.

I hope i did make this un-misunderstandable clear for you now.

 

4. YOU present an questionable attitude here, how dare you to say something like "I wish i could be there if it bites you in the butt."? That is just respectless and blatantly ignorant. It makes you sound as you think you are something better and have all the answers and you are a chosen one speak down to us from your high throne, just because you thing what you believe is ultimate.

You don't even know me nor anything about my life or what i am doing. Also, seen from a christian point of view, this statement is just wrong wrong wrong and very unchristian. Feeling happy about the misere of others is not very christian-like. And you claim to be a christian, right?

 

5. Yes i brought up the holocaust and as i assumed it was a bad example, at least using it for you to point something out. You completely ripped my arguments out of context, what shows that debating or exchanging view with you is pretty pointless.

 

[edit]

And it is not about that the fetus cannot defend itself.

 

And also, within the first three month the pregnancy is very "unsecure".

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by reelguy227

THEY ARENT SUPERSTITIONS!!! what the hek,my gosh .those are real they arent hoaxes ,and i suppose that fatima and lourdes were hoaxes also ?

 

Why wouldn't they be? Independent investigations of the images on both the shroud and the alleged "Juan Diego's" cloak have shown to be comprised of plant/mineral matter, specifically pigments like vermillion and ochre.

 

Indeed, the so-called shroud was admitted to be faked by a Bishop several hundred years ago. Neither have clear proveniences, they simply "appeared" in the public eye by someone claiming they are "miracles."

 

Fatima was likely mass-hysteria combined with outright fiction. I recall that a radio DJ was able to much the same thing with an announcement on April 1 that Mars was attacking the Earth.

 

Hoaxes, bubba. Nothing more.

[SkinWalker]

One reason why I never get involved in abortion discussions is that I have neither a vagina or a womb.

 

Its a matter to be decided by those that do.

 

The other reason is that people are generally idiots when it comes to ethics. They worry about a fetus that may or may not have sentience and which may or may not have rights, but these same idiots could care less about human rights violations in places like Sudan or Rwanda, where thousands of people were slaughtered in less than a day.

 

If you want to discuss abortion ethics with me, show me a copy of your Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International identification cards. Either will do. Otherwise, I'm not listening.

[reelguy227]

what is the point of your atheistic feable life according to atheism? that when you die ,there is no point ,your dead and all the things yu did in this life had no meaning now that your dead in the ground ,theres no point for you ever existing, techincally ,no matter what yu say ,there really is no point to atheism ,its to live this 100 years on this earth ,what to have a little fun and then die ,whats the point? at least i have something to fall back on ,my God . all of the things i said here are from an atheistic point of view they are not my opinion.

 

and no matter how much evidence i give yu about the apparitions ,yu still wont believe me ,why do i even bother .anything that gives credit to my religion ,like the Eucharistic Miracles and the apparitions of Mary are a hoax ,its a hoax to yu because if it wasnt a hoax than it would be real and yu would have to follow God and not be able to do what you want to do ,oh what a shame youd have to follow Gods rules ,thats so hard.so yu have to discredit the miracles because if yu believed in them than that would mean that God is real and oh gosh it would kill yu to believe in God ,so yu have to discredit them .

 

i see no point in debating any longer ,we will never accept each others point of view ,so we will never get any where with each other ill chime in now and then but its still probably not going to make a differance ,but hey all things all possible through God ,yu guys could change in the near future ,only God knows the answer to that . the only thing i can do is pray for you guys to almighty God .

[SkinWalker]

Reelguy, I'm not an atheist. I'm an agnostic.

 

Whether a god or gods exist I accept as possible, just not very probable given the anthropomorphic nature of man's religions. If their is one or more gods, then it seems unlikely that they are anything that we have yet conceived of.

 

Indeed, believing that this hundred years or so of life is all I get is what makes it worth living. I'm under no delusion that after death I get another chance at some sort of afterlife or "eternal life." At least nothing that is conscious to me. I realize that my matter -the molecules and atoms that comprise my body- will continue, since matter can neither be created nor destroyed. That's as close to eternal life that any of us get, in all likelihood.

 

In the meantime, I don't waste my time living up to the expectations of any of man's religions unless those expectations correspond to my own as a human being who believes in humanistic principles, such as showing compassion to others, preserving life, etc.

 

Perhaps there are those that need to believe in things bigger than themselves in order to live up to these ideals; and need there to be miracles in order to justify or reinforce their faith. I do not. I can live up to the teachings of Jesus without believing that Jesus was a real person. I can accept that there are certain was of living without believing that all life began with the mythological characters of Adam and Eve or was renewed by the Noachian mythology.

 

For those that believe such things, I will always regard them as superstitious. Yet I will respect their right to believe. Up to the point that their beliefs have adverse influence on society or begin to dictate legislature in secular government. Then I speak out. The only reason I have criticized religious superstition in this thread is because it was brought up as an argument for bigotted ideals.

[reelguy227]

sorry its just im sick of yu guys telling me that everything i believe is a hoax ,i said yu were an atheist ,its just that most of the liberals on this thread are .im done debating .

[yaebginn]

1. everyone is younger than someone else. you are either a young man or an old man, take whicher is given to you. and youth is also maturity, not only age

2. the dictionary says obey is to carry out the command of. nothing about blindly. basically, to do what you are told.

3. I understand what you mean now, it all depends on what dictionary we're using.

4. I am a christian, but I do sin. I dont think this is one of them. I want to see justice done. I dont want to dance while you suffer, but I would like to see justice done. but now that it seems we were using a definition of obey, you probably wont get burnt by your views, since they are almost identical to mine, in the obeying sense.

[ET Warrior]

And we are equally as tired of hearing that we are doomed to burn in a pit of fire for all of eternity. If you don't want to be forced to think critically about your religion, then do not enter into a debate where religion is likely to be brought up, because you are very likely to hear that not everyone shares your belief system, and is willing to debate it.