New Ideas For The Game WE ALL WANT

[Puzzlebox]

Not for the game, sorry.

[lukeiamyourdad]

I hate you.

[Puzzlebox]

 

You'll come around.

[Admiral Vostok]

Or maybe you'll come around, Puzzlebox.

 

First off the names you've taken specifically were my ideas, but even if my template can wholly be considered as a group effort, which for the most part it is, I would like to think you'd be crediting all of us when you present this design to LucasArts.

 

Now, responding to your responses:

1. So the only thing a technician does is stay inside a power station? In this case the Technician's ability would be better suited to an upgrade for each Power Station.

2. You still haven't explained exactly how Pilots work. I see one of two options: a) they work exactly the same as Pilots in C&C:Generals, where putting them in vehicles promoted the vehicle, or b) vehicles cannot operate without pilots, requiring you to build both the vehicle and the pilot to get a unit.

3. There's a variant of the Imperial Shuttle called an Imperial Landing Craft that you can see in the Special Edition movies. I think that would be better suited as your AT-AT transporter.

4. Well I don't know that making Construction Droids "hideously expensive" is necessarily a good idea...

 

And responding to your responses to Windu:

A. Windu, Puzzlebox is right you can't say his design is unworkable from the minute amount of information he has given us.

B. Again Windu, Puzzlebox is right. With the exception of the Imperial Shuttle and Imperial Lander, he's included every Imperial unit from the movies.

C. I'm going to say the TIE Avenger is a bad idea too. As EU, it doesn't necessarily contradict the films, but by including it you'll radically alter the Empire's style of play from what we see in the movies. Imperial Aircraft are not great on their own; they rely on outnumbering their opponents for victory. Think of the swarms of TIE Fighters in the Battle of Endor. Giving the Empire an expensive, tough-to-kill aircraft with a long build time strongly goes against this doctrine of superiority through numbers.

 

Puzzlebox, even if you don't think my ideas for the game can help you, I think you'll agree my encyclopedic knowledge of the films will.

[DK_Viceroy]

The engine for The TIE avenger is the same as the one made for the TIE Interceptor. Vostock i can tell you why however the Avenger wasn't in use.

 

Imperial Admirals did not like the idea of a Hyperdrive Equipped Starfighter Thinking that with that in widespread Service They Wouldn't Be ALlowed to order as many Capitol Ship.

 

Puzzlebox

 

ALothough i agree for balance i don't agree with the TIE avenger taking a long time since the empire had practically every shipyard in the galaxy under it's Iron grip it would be able to produce things really fast though i do however understand it's for balance.

 

I didn't and still don't like the pilot idea for Generals.

 

Have you thought that the Super Star destroyer would come in useful for battle of Endor maps someone mentioned that in this thread before.

 

I would advise listening to us we do know what we're talking about i believe vostok has told you 42 times now how long we've all been working on the ideas.

 

Look at Imperium Galactica II that's a Space RTS with ground elements it shows that it's possible to have a game with soace and ground battles. The reverse will be true A Ground RTS with Space Elements

[Puzzlebox]

Vostok-

 

1.The Lambda shuttle is the Imperial Transport. Yes, the Imperial Lander is helpful, if I'm not mistaken this is what GB uses, I am remembering the sound byte.

2.Technicians perform a number of tasks for a civ, examples of this include lowering the power consumption for a given power station, increasing the resource output for a given building (Some resources are collected differently, gas for example is collected through large operations which can hold a number (2) of technicians that will increase output). Technicians cost no population slots when garrisoned. Keep in mind a given player will not have ninety resource buildings all over the map, there are even possibilities here as far as cutting micro that could be implemented, which would fit well with the rest of the game, they do a couple other more specific things too but I don't see a need to blurb about everything.

3.Pilots are garrisoned in the Air Base and are required respectively when dispatching aircraft, if you lose a craft, you lose it's pilot, this induces more accurate risk calculation among the players and makes it much more realistic. Air Bases are capable of building a specific number of aircraft, they cannot build past the aircraft limit for the building, this number varies from civ to civ. When garrisoned pilots and aircraft do not cost population slots.

4.Construction Droids are large mech type units that construct buildings, they are very expensive, they move very slowly and have heavy armor (depending), as well they are costly to fuel supplies when in not garrisoned. Construction Droids can construct buildings relatively fast however and are generally worth the cost, some factions have access to slaves, slaves are far less efficient but are cheap by comparison (they can only build upon a foundation, the building option is not available through them). These droids vary from faction to faction, what I've described here closely relates to the example civ I gave.

 

I can't argue with your last statement, but if I see an opportunity I'll try .

 

DK-Problem with space battles is the scale of the ships and depth, you obviously can't have the player ordering his or her fighters and such under and around a Star Destroyer for example but if you make it too mechanical as in a 2-D click and wait setup or what have you the people are not going to like it.

 

I am unsure whether or not you are intending to mix space combat with the rest of the game, what I mean is will you be able to have a Star Destroyer in the normal mode? If that is your intention I don't see it working, the Super Star Destroyer even if radically scaled down would take up an enormous part of the screen, I thought about this previously with regards to some sort of zoom, the SSD would be above a certain level and the rest of the map below but then there is the depth thing again, making aircraft free flying rather than just using set elevation flight movement or whatever might not be the brightest idea one has ever come up with.

 

I said before about one of your ideas or your concepts that I had something sort of similar in my game, I was referring to giving the player a feeling that they are part of a larger conflict, there are a couple of features where this is concerned. Again these are optional, it is set either before the game starts or through a given custom scenario.

 

Players have the ability to request resources from their respective government, this can be in the form of any of the five resources, (yes five, if you understood how the game works you won't have a single problem with it) these are food, carbon, metal, fuel, and credits. In addition to that they can request troops, not how many or in what configuration but military aid or a less direct form of economic aid consisting of non combat droids and such.

 

This is linked to taxes, a player generally gains credits through taxes he or she collects (this is the stuff I didn't want to get into) from the populace. First and foremost this is done by building housing units and population complexes (when said buildings are powered they generate significantly more credits, power stations are a considerable drain on fuel therefor players will build closely together so as to make the most of a given station, they will also keep building because they want more money, the same is true in real life, anyway the slight terrain change that develops underneath will give the feel of a developed area that doesn't need to be done through the editor), the more taxes that are collected, the more of an asset you are to your government making you more likely to be the beneficiary of aid whether requested or not. This is a very neat feature with alot more behind it and maybe I'll get into it later.

 

Another option here is bombardments, again this is linked directly to your tax revenue in as much that the more of an asset you are the more likely you are to recieve aid. I originally had this done by introducing a large shadow on the game map which would attack an area you requested, both players were able to dispatch their fighters which would just go up into the air and disappear from sight, it was possible to destroy the star ship if the defending players air force was large enough, successful or not a portion of your fighters returned when after a period of time, theres more to explaining this properly but that would take a couple more paragraphs. Obviously if the attacked player sent no ships, the players aircraft would have returned in full. I later reduced this though, I had to be realistic. After reduced this feature consists of a request and and response as to when the Star Destroyer/whatever has arrived allowing you to then specify a target, if the opposing civ has a starship there as well one will be destroyed and the other will resume the bombardment (as far as targeting and flexibility are concerned I don't want to get into the minutia).

[Darth Windu]

Puzzlebox - ah, the game is afoot...

 

A.You can't know if my template is workable or not because you haven't seen it and the only lack of information here is that which exists in your head.

 

The lack of information is in my head? Thats an...interesting comment, although of course the whole point of my comment was that you havent provided enough information.

 

B.Index these film units I have ignored based on the information I presented via a numbered list, also, seeing as how I have given such account to the Expanded Universe units at the expense of these film units I am certain you wouldn't mind providing a similarly formatted list entailing which of these units aside from the TIE Avenger are taken from the EU and what should be done with them.

 

In terms of EU and film units, you have ignored the Lambda Shuttle, Imperial Lander and Speeder Bike. There is also no need for two air transports, or your mythical 'AA-MB'. Actually, I was wondering why you have useless buildings. For example, why have the 'Barracks' (Stormtrooper, Scout) and the 'Military Academy' which also produces the Stormtrooper?

 

C.The TIE Avenger is a shielded air craft that has a stronger attack against other aircraft than it's counterparts and is equipped with missile launchers for use against buildings and heavy weaponry as well as other aircraft, it is very expensive and is produced slowly however and as such is not meant for widespread use, not to mention it doesn't fly as fast. The TIE Interceptor is considerably cheaper and is capable of flying at excessive speeds making it ideal for strike missions where stealth and evasiveness is desired. The TIE fighter on the other hand is produced more quickly than the other two and is by far the least expensive, it is intended to be used in mass against opposing air forces and exist as the bulk of the Imperial Fleet.

 

But here you have completely missed the point. The Empire doesnt care about the deaths of its soldiers/pilots, which is why they have expendable TIE Fighters and Interceptors. To give them the Avenger is to alter the dynamics of the Empire and reduce the amount of difference between them and the Rebellion.

 

I don't mind Vostoc's criticisms because his template would make for a good game, I just do not believe it would come close to mine. Your template on the other hand is abhorant, the weather effects and the kneeling and laying for bonuses and such would result in an unbridled click fest and is more suited a trench world war two game where you control a handful of brigades and there is no economy, as for your writing, learn some syntax and pray for a miracle.

 

Ah, so weather effects are bad because you arent smart enough to be able to include them? Interesting. Also, where did you get the idea into your head that I included 'kneeling' and 'laying' bonuses? They have never been part of my template. As for no economy, the only reason you have come up with that is because you simply cannot accept that my template is far superior to yours and you can never hope to match its brilliance. Had you actually paid attention, you would have seen that the economy in my template is very important, it's just not as micro-intensive as in other RTS', allowing players to concentrate more on glorious battle.

 

PS: you want to learn some syntax? How about you learn some humility.

[DK_Viceroy]

I agree with windu on all but one of those points.

 

The empire did care about some of their pilots since you wouldn't just want to throw away veterans and elite pilots.

 

like the 181st Tie fighter squadron of elite pilots. Some squadrons got the TIE avenger because they were good pilots perhaps this could work with puzzle's pilot. If the pilot became a veteran then it could pilot the Avenger but the avanger would need a veteran pilot to fly or it's just an expensive paper weight

 

The Humility point all the way:D

 

I think we should have veterancy in this.

 

If purists need the film to back it up

 

The emporer put an entire legion of his "FINEST" troops at endor.

 

this implies that he put a legion of veterans.

 

Nuff Said

[Majin Boba Fett]

I don't see how you can put veterans and experience into the game. Not many troops return after a battle. However, if the gameplay is changed a bit, then there is a possibility that it will work.

[DK_Viceroy]

It certainly should be changed so Massing one unit doesn't win you the game since that really only falls in with the confederacy, which was why i gave General Poggle Production bonuses since geonosis was very heavily industrialised in very small areas.

 

even the Empire didn't throw millions of men into a battle without a strategy The empire seems more about getting as much firepower to one place in as much quantity in as little time as possible with the best strategy possible

[DK_Viceroy]

I've redone some of the commanders and added a little to Genera Grevoius on what seems will be the mnost logical course but i'm reluctant to speculate but i Do know he will be in ep III so we'll wait till then before i do any great detail about him as a leader.

 

Remeber Classification is only a rough guide to their speciality if this was put into the game the classification would be taken out it's only a guide for fellow forumites

 

 

Rebel Aliance

 

General Jan Dodona

 

General Jan Dodonna Is best at making the best out of a bad situation thanks to skillful deploymenty of the scarce few heavy firepower uits in the alliance with skillfull support of x-wings and b-wings since he iis used to commanding just those aircraft he is reluctant to try and insert the A,B and E wings into his strategy so he doesn't get them. he prefers to preserve his forces only commiting when absoloutly nessacery and relies on superior intelligence to deploy his meager resources

 

Classification: Intelligence Firepower

 

General Antilles

 

Gets Starfighter bonuses all aircraft trained as veterans cheaper faster and in general better

 

Classifcation: Fighters

 

General Skywalker

 

Good at commando tactics X-wings have no targeting Computers but their accuracy ratio is better because of luk's power of the force. Jedi have the special ability to make troops work together better by using force co-ordination. His commandos are also stealthed and are generally better and also gets mounted commandos as well as the ability to enlist the locals.

 

Classification: Commandos Terrain Advanatages

 

Imperial Navy

 

General Maximillian Veers

 

Gets access to walkers which are trained as veterans gets an Walker Construction facility that would replace the imperial mechanised production factory where walkers are constructed. would get variuos upgrades like Improved Gyros that would allow walkers to move faster and fire while moving. Also gets the stormtrooper commando { snowtrooper inspired } He is unable however to mount effective sieges and relies on fast attacks being very vulnerable to hit and run.

 

Classification: Walkers Fast Attacks

 

Admiral Motti

 

Admiral Motti beleives in Sheer weight of numbers due to the vast untapped resources of manpower in the empire he has developed Enchanced training regimes that allow half trained forces to be employed in the filed with experienced units which completes their training and helps make them a deadly asset. He also uses the same with TIE fighters using swarm after swarm off there swift fighters in an attempt to wear them down. He gets access to the repulsolift line of tanks Since general Veers is the walker expert. He gets a slight production bonus which increases slowly the longer the game goes on.

 

Classification: Numerical Superiority

 

Darth Vader

 

Gets access to advanced technologies since he is the Emporer's Right hand man he gets access to The TIE Advanced X1 and later the TIE Defender {Very Expensive (for a fighter) but worth it} can train the imperial royal red guard. Gets advanced factories but units have less health and are more likely to defect due to the dark lords treatment of his men. Dark jedi can also have a similar effect to Luke skywalkers jedi except That once the dark jedi is killed the forces it was co-ordinating get lower statistics than before due to over reliance on them. He gets access to the repulsolift line of tanks Since general Veers is the walker expert

 

 

Classification: Advanced Technology And Raw Firepower Dark Jedi

 

Galactic Republic

 

General Kenobi

 

All rocket firing units run out quicker and have a slower rate of fire and reload but slightly greater accuracy his jedi starfighters are equipped with sonic mines after seeing how effectively the late jago fett used his. however his perceptiveness allows him to use uplink ceners to slowly reveal the area around enemy buidlings but this progress halts if power fails and is restarted if infiltrated Gets

 

CLassification: Siege And Intelligence

 

General Yoda

 

All units get greater armour General yoda gets access to the advanced AT-XT prototype and all units will fire faster when injured because of yodas inspirational leadership but unfortunatly General yodas airforce is lacking in equipment due to his preffered aircraft being the gunship and gunship transport. He is however the only general in the game to get jedi masters. Which have a very minor version of luke skywalkers and darth vaders force co-ordination abilities

 

Classification: Jedi Infantry And Support

 

General Skywalker { Anakin Of Course }

 

Gets the upgraded jedi starfighter { clone wars shorts } all units get a shorter line of sight all units move faster and atack faster while they all cost more but build faster. However he does not get access to some of the more advanced upgrades and advanced units but he does get the Torrent class starfighter and gets some technologies other republic generals do not.

 

Classification: Advanced Fighter Technology And Engineer Officer

 

Speratist

 

General Grevious

 

Not Much is known about General Greviuos so as more details are released about him and after episode 3 is released analyis of his tactics will allow him to be classified. Possibly Droids and their effective application to the field and their upgrades based on his own components. He also can equip some droids with lightsabres from fallen jedi and hs units get an attack bonus versus them. he heaviuly uses droid piloted units with some notable exceptions.

 

General Poggle

 

Poggle being from geonosis gets an almost completly different set of buildings that look like they're from geonosis His production facilities are the most expensive in the game but are underground with only the entrace on the surface and builds units faster quicker and slightly cheaper but only when production foundires are clustered in groups of 3 or more his foundries can also be equipped with multiple exits increasing unit cost by half but allowing another one of that unit for free. he gets the geonosain warrior, Fanblade Fighter sonic cannon and gets a bonus to research however his activities are often very hard to conceal and thus has no stealth capabilities and his Geonosain fighters alothough increadibly effective are more expensive.

 

Classification: Production And Sonic Technology

 

General Taan

 

General Taan a master of training and tactics and especially deception She hails from the Chiss Consortium and can Build Chiss bodyguards to protect sites of great importance. Also due to the fact it was she who stole the decimator designs she can also construct these however due to materials being needed for her decimators units will be less well armed and armoured and sverely damaged units have a chance of blowing up when if attacked. to compensate for this she can disguise her troops when in large groups.

 

Classification: Ambush Infiltrartion and Decimators

[Puzzlebox]

Lets try this, were you attempting to be abrasive in your response to the post where I outlined the faction units?

 

What do you imagine the scout is Windu...

The transport is the Lambda.

 

It's kinda obvious why I have the barracks in there, if anyone else is unsure ask.

 

The Empire does not build expendable fighters because they don't care about their pilots, they build them because they are inexpensive, whether they care or not is secondary.

 

I hope that you understand that that is not the template Windu, seeing as how you referred to it like it was. Answer my initial question so I know how to respond properly.

[DK_Viceroy]

Puzzlebox that's enough don't be so mean and nasty

 

DMUK's warned the both of us so don't start on windu, windu has tried to get through to you the need for humility I however give up just don't be nasty to everyone you'll just find yourself the way i did ages ago until i learned to be more flexible.

[Puzzlebox]

DK I am not certain whether or not he was being sharp in his response, I need to know or I can't really respond.

 

*He wasn't actually warning you its better for conflict resolution to not single anyone out so he pulled the next in line as well. I'm certain if there were any problems though he could look past them, it's just a feeling I have:)

 

We should get back to the semi topic, you and Vostoc said you could be helpful.

[DK_Viceroy]

Let's get back on topic and if anyone has a problem with someone elses template make a topic called Template Flaming or something. This thread is for constructive ideas to make one idea we all agree on not just a forum for some idiot to say theirs is better than evryone elses and that they're all dum dums and a huge argument all about overblown ego's.

[Admiral Vostok]

It's kinda obvious why I have the barracks in there, if anyone else is unsure ask.

I'm guessing that it's a cheaper building that lets you build those troops quicker or something. If this is correct perhaps you should take note of how few if any existing RTS games use a similar idea: it just isn't a good for gameplay. Having too many buildings to chose from is not a good thing, especially when each of the civs in the game will have different looking buildings. In the end you should not you have far more buildings than any other RTS has, and that isn't necessarily a good thing.

 

On the Pilot idea, I had a similar one in my very first draft of a new Star Wars RTS, and it was eventually decided by the community and eventually myself that the idea sucked. Although it was more realistic, it was also infinitely more annoying: having to build two unit to get one to work is just unnecessary clicking. Why click to build a pilot then click to build a TIE Fighter when you could just click to build the TIE Fighter, which if you need a realistic explanation includes the training of the pilot?

 

I still maintain the TIE Avenger is not a good idea. It really doesn't fit with the style of warfare the Empire uses. The Empire relies on swarms of lesser units backed by a few incredibly tough units. As a small elite unit, the TIE Avenger doesn't really work with this style - it's much more in the vein of the Rebel Alliance.

 

And I can't see how any overall concept can make me accept five resources, in addition to power and population (which are also essentially resources.

[DK_Viceroy]

Too true which is Why i think you'll like the descriptiuon of Admiral Motti. It is strange of puzzlebox of wanting to get rid of clickfest ideas to come up with the prime culprit. though can we have some new ideas for discussion not just continual arguments over a fialed template. if he wants to show it to LA and make the rest of the forum look like wise men and him a fool so be it.

[Puzzlebox]

Lose the idiot references and stop trying my patience, this is an innocent game forum where we are discussing a video game, for our entertainment, we shouldn't fight. Leave it.

 

Getting back to the game as I should the barracks is cheaper vostoc but it builds units slower, its meant for expansion more than anything else, there is less risk involved in case your enemy hits it.

 

You never answered me DK, do you intend to have the space battles mixed with the normal play or as a seperate system entirely?

[Majin Boba Fett]

If you ever show up to the forum game puzzlebox, you probably wont have very friendly allies...

[Admiral Vostok]

Can everyone stop the flaming please! Puzzlebox is trying to discuss his ideas rationally. While I disagree with some of his concepts I'm not calling him names, despite his curious continued misspelling of my name, I'm discussing his decisions in a rational way and trying to show alternate courses of action.

 

What a week for DMUK to be offline!

 

Now, back on topic.

 

I think if you really want to keep the tactical flexibility of the Barracks, Puzzlebox, you could have only the Barracks be buildable but then upgradable to the Military Academy. This is a simple way to allow you to eventually establish more permanent forward bases where you've build Barracks. Also, this cuts down on the clutter of possible buildable buildings that will come up in the Construction Droids menu.

 

Also, what is your response to my criticism of the Pilot system?

[Majin Boba Fett]

Indeed. The flaming makes it hard to tell what's going on.

[Puzzlebox]

I think the pilots should stay, the realism it adds is enough of a counter weight.

 

About the Barracks and Military Academy I really don't view it as clutter, its better to keep them split, this will enforce the importance of the players starting base for most of the factions, as well they can only actually have one Command Center building, the others are secondary with less options in them.

 

I keep thinking about the Avenger though, that might actually be bad, if I am intending for it not to be used overly often or as a viable strategy, then why would I add it. Perhaps that can be a toybox unit, as I have the editor it could just be added to their build menu anyway.

[Admiral Vostok]

Because you're relatively new to the forums, Puzzlebox, you're probably unaware of a phrase that was amongst our favourites in reviewing potential Star Wars RTS designs.

 

GAMEPLAY > REALISM.

 

Basically what this means that realism is great, until it gets in the way of gameplay. If realism causes gameplay to suffer, gameplay should always win out. Your pilot idea certainly falls into this category; clicking to build two units where before you only had to click once is bad gameplay no matter how you look at it.

 

Again the fact that no successful RTS games to date have introduced a system whereby you need to build Pilots as well as Aircraft should indicate the idea is not great. Especially when the Empire needs to be able to mass produce TIE Fighters, the necessity for pilots impacts on gameplay in more than just a too-many-clicks way.

 

Back when I propsed a similar system, I had the added benefit that destroyed aircraft and vehicles would have their Pilots ejected, and if recovered could be used again to pilot new vehicles. Even with that as a bonus aspect, my idea was still ultimately flawed, and since yours doesn't even have a similar bonus, yours is moreso.

[Majin Boba Fett]

This post is sorta astray of the topics currently being discussed, but nonetheless, here are some of my ideas. Some new, some old, some taken from others. Therefore, all of these are not necassarily my own, but I would like to see them in the game.

 

1. Conquer the Galaxy - Being able to conquer several (and I meanc SEVERAL) civs. There are several tasks to be done in order to win, that way it doesn't become repative. Task would include, capturing cities, defeating armies in a face-off, capturing leaders, destroyers structures, and other creative means of conquering.

 

2. A massive selection of Civs - All the civs that currently exist plus as many others as possible. The list includes Trandoshans, Hutt Cartel, Mon Calimari, and of course, the controversial Yuuzhan Vong.

 

3. Rated Multi-Player with its own server - Self-explanitory. I got the rated multi-player from saber.

 

4. More single player campaigns - Alot more.

 

5. Commanders - Somethng yall are debating, but I think they'd be cool.

 

That's it for now. I'm sure I could find several others things I add like to add, but I don't want to ramble.

[Admiral Vostok]

I'll just reiterate my stance on the number of civs since you brought it up Nitro, and since I get the impression Puzzlebox's design includes a relatively large range of civs.

 

I think at the very most we'll have the same civs we had in Clone Campaigns, even Wookiees since

their civ will feature extensively in battle in Episode III.

At the very least we'll get the big four (Empire, Rebellion, Republic, Separatists).

 

The reason for this is that if Lucasarts wants to make a decent RTS at all, each civ will be unique. The most number of completely unique civs we've seen in a successful RTS to date is four - so it's a bit of stretch to even expect the original 8 civs.

 

If we're expecting a well developed and production-feasible game, I for one won't be expecting such minor civs as Trandoshans and Mon Calamari.