New Ideas For The Game WE ALL WANT

[Admiral Vostok]

Well the X-Wing and Y-Wing are the image of the Rebel Alliance. They certainly shouldn't be replaced by EU units if we want a game to even remotely resemble Star Wars.

[Mr. Painless]

Originally posted by Admiral Vostok

Well the X-Wing and Y-Wing are the image of the Rebel Alliance. They certainly shouldn't be replaced by EU units if we want a game to even remotely resemble Star Wars.

Exactly.

[swphreak]

The B-Wings were designed to counter captial ships. The Alliance used X and Y-Wings to raid Imperial convoys. To counter the piracy, the Empire developed the escort frigate. To counter that, the Rebel Alliance developed the B-Wing. With it's heavy weapons and defenses, it could engage the frigates. With it's slow speed and low maneuverability, what else could it be used for?

 

Of course, that is EU information, and therefor irrelevant, but it seems logical for the B-Wing to engage Capital ships.

 

And why in heavens name would you add the Juggernaut in the mod? That thing was obsolete since the Clone Wars, and dates back to the Old Republic. It is only used in security/military forces for poor outer rim planets during the Galactic Civil War.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Darth Windu

Having seen SW:IA a while ago, i must say i was very dissapointed about the game. One glaring example of why the whole project would fall flat is when someone related to the project said that the B-wing wasn't in the game as it wasn't needed, and yet the E-wing and K-wing were included.

 

Darth Windu... where did you get that information? Don't make assumptions about things there were discussed months ago. In IA, the B-wing is a general-specific unit for the Rebel Airforce General. In fact, it has already been coded into the game. It's wings open when it goes into combat, and twists so that it stands up, like it should. The E-wing is also a general-specific unit for the same general, and the K-Wing is a general-specific generals ability-- it is not a controllable unit. When you get enough experience while playing as the rebel airforce general you can upgrade to get this ability and designate a target in which it flies by and drops its load.

 

If you have a question, ask me, but don't put out incorrect information on forums... thanks

[Admiral Vostok]

Well, I stopped by the Imperial Assault Forums again today, and while the biggest problems have been taken care of, for the most part my list of criticisms above is still pretty relevant. The problems are no longer as serious as what I posted above, but they still are there. Relating back to my earlier criticisms:

 

1. The gameplay is still exactly like Generals, which I'm sure many of you agree is not a good thing. Right down to an identical resource system and the inclusion of superweapons.

 

2. For the most part a lot of the EU units have been moved to being General-specific as I suggested. Yet some EU units still remain in the vanilla faction that will still alter the gameplay drastically from what we see in the movies, and even read in the books. Half of the units just aren't necessary, they don't add anything to the game and just clutter up options. For example, there are seven different types of Astromech droids that do various things, and while not all seven will be in play at the same time, it is still too many peon units to keep track of. Also, half of the Imperial tanks are just unnecessary.

 

3. The multiple-modes-of-attack issue is still bad. Units don't have as many as three or four modes of attack like I suggested above, but for the most part it is very rare to have a unit with only one mode of attack. Even the basic infantry have two modes of attack and a special ability. Far too much microing and added complexity that is just plain unnecessary.

 

4. Again, since the previous two criticisms are still evident, there is also far too much doubling up of units and abilities.

 

5. Finally, I may have been a little harsh in my generalisation of mod-makers. As I've said elsewhere, for the most part the IA team is extremely talented. There are a few team members though who do fit my fanboy description, and these people were the ones I had the most problems with. They are still there and would still vehemently combat any suggestions I would make.

 

So in conclusion, things have changed but the problems I saw then are still evident now. Despite this, I still daresay IA will still be as popular as it could be, and wish Edan and Painless luck and success.

 

One thing I feel I should also mention with respect to this forum: during my lurk at the IA forums today, I came across a poll comparing IA to SWGB. Everyone who had replied put down SWGB in one way or another. The fact is that despite SWGB's short-comings with respect to it's resemblence to AoE, it is still an excellent game in terms of gameplay, and I'd be surprised if IA could even be half as good as SWGB - most professional RTS's aren't, why would a fan-made mod be? The SWGB-bashing that goes on within the IA team does not bode well for a team wishing to make a decent game, and in all honesty it is probably contributing in part to my desire to not return to the IA forums again.

 

Again, good luck to Edan and Painless, you're going to need it.

[Edan]

Originally posted by Admiral Vostok

Well, I stopped by the Imperial Assault Forums again today, and while the biggest problems have been taken care of, for the most part my list of criticisms above is still pretty relevant. The problems are no longer as serious as what I posted above, but they still are there. Relating back to my earlier criticisms:

 

1. The gameplay is still exactly like Generals, which I'm sure many of you agree is not a good thing. Right down to an identical resource system and the inclusion of superweapons.

 

I agree, but please inform us on what you'd do differently. I've tried going on the forums and get opinion about how we can make things different, but we have been inable to come up with good ideas that are better than the basic structure of Generals. In addition, going out there and changing gameplay so much is not easy-- Generals can be a pain in the ass when it comes to altering big things, and it has its limits. I'd like to hear what you suggest we do instead.

 

2. For the most part a lot of the EU units have been moved to being General-specific as I suggested. Yet some EU units still remain in the vanilla faction that will still alter the gameplay drastically from what we see in the movies, and even read in the books. Half of the units just aren't necessary, they don't add anything to the game and just clutter up options. For example, there are seven different types of Astromech droids that do various things, and while not all seven will be in play at the same time, it is still too many peon units to keep track of. Also, half of the Imperial tanks are just unnecessary.

Relax Vostok. The Astromech droids were trimmed down to only 3 droids like you suggested long ago. We're not have 7 different astromechs. You mention Imperial tanks-- what are you talking about? Our only Imperial Vehicles are the TIE Crawler (TIE Century Tank, anti-vehicle), the Chariot LAV (support), the AT-ST (anti-personnel), the AT-AA (anti-air), and the AT-AT (anti-everything and kicks ass). If anything, that's not ENOUGH for the Imperials-- they need to be superior when it comes to vehicles. We've really trimmed it down. Don't make false claims.

 

3. The multiple-modes-of-attack issue is still bad. Units don't have as many as three or four modes of attack like I suggested above, but for the most part it is very rare to have a unit with only one mode of attack. Even the basic infantry have two modes of attack and a special ability. Far too much microing and added complexity that is just plain unnecessary.

Rebel troopers have thermal detonators that reload every 1.5 minutes (against structures) in addition to their regular blaster pistol. I think that is a necessary thing to include. The Rebel missile trooper only has a missile launcher-- nothing else. Give me some examples of when what you're saying is true.

 

4. Again, since the previous two criticisms are still evident, there is also far too much doubling up of units and abilities.

Well I just proved that is not true. No doubling of units and no doubling of abilities.

 

5. Finally, I may have been a little harsh in my generalisation of mod-makers. As I've said elsewhere, for the most part the IA team is extremely talented. There are a few team members though who do fit my fanboy description, and these people were the ones I had the most problems with. They are still there and would still vehemently combat any suggestions I would make.

Noone else in the team matters because they have no right to make decisions about the mod. Only I do. So if you want to avoid them, you can talk to me personally and things can get done.

 

So in conclusion, things have changed but the problems I saw then are still evident now. Despite this, I still daresay IA will still be as popular as it could be, and wish Edan and Painless luck and success.

 

One thing I feel I should also mention with respect to this forum: during my lurk at the IA forums today, I came across a poll comparing IA to SWGB. Everyone who had replied put down SWGB in one way or another. The fact is that despite SWGB's short-comings with respect to it's resemblence to AoE, it is still an excellent game in terms of gameplay, and I'd be surprised if IA could even be half as good as SWGB - most professional RTS's aren't, why would a fan-made mod be? The SWGB-bashing that goes on within the IA team does not bode well for a team wishing to make a decent game, and in all honesty it is probably contributing in part to my desire to not return to the IA forums again.

 

Again, good luck to Edan and Painless, you're going to need it.

Your claims about our mod are no different than how people bash SWGB. Your claims are unbased and incorrect, and they are harming our image for the Star Wars community. I suggest you stop it, and instead give us constructive criticism on what we can do to "make the gameplay better", and don't repeat exactly what SWGB-bashers do.

 

Whether its this, the B-wing or whatever else, please don't say **** about our mod because everything you're saying is incorrect. You've done enough damage already.

[Mr. Painless]

Well no offense but I think we are off to a pretty good start. I mean we have been featured in PC Gamer UK. You can find it on our Homepage and at this Link .

[swphreak]

Then I guess the problem of misinformation in Vostok's comments may be from out-dated info on the site. All the R's are still listed and stuff.

 

Also, I don't see what's wrong with the Primary and Secondary weapons idea. That's in ZH anyways, but the aircraft with 3 weapons might get a bit confusing.

 

I'm also a littlw worried about the Rebel's combat engineer unit. Is that the only one that can build defenses? [edit] Oh I see now. They build the defenses that rebel troops can use. Sounds cool.

 

The site got a bit confusing for me, the 3 civs have a little different information layout each time, but you're trying to get the mod done and the site isn't really that important.

 

 

Can't wait for Public Beta. Been watching the progress bar for a long time. I just need to remember to install Gens/ZH on my new rig.

[JediBdm]

Bet you didnt expect to see me here:D

 

ya know i am IA head modeler! I know code and other stuff about the generals engin. Even though it looks simple its hard to edit.

 

You know how it was said b-wings arent included? they are. Under General Ackbar. We feel that it fits cause he inveted them.

 

Also x-wings are UPGRADED to e-wings, and y-wings UPGRADED to k-wings

 

We also include the airspeeder, its ment to kick the at-ats ass.

 

Aircraft dont have 3.............they have to. Proton torpedoes, or lasers for the x-wing is a example. the torpedoes are limited while the lasers arent.

 

I think the sides are very balanced.

 

Also when you come to a fun aspect of IA. SuperWeapons and Powers are just fun! i mean it feels very satafying watchin the StarDestroyer Bombard your enemy:D But then when they send a pack of y-wings on a attack run, you tremble.

 

Imps-Dominate in the Vehicles

Rebs-Dominate in the Air

[Edan]

Originally posted by StarWarsPhreak

Then I guess the problem of misinformation in Vostok's comments may be from out-dated info on the site. All the R's are still listed and stuff.

 

Also, I don't see what's wrong with the Primary and Secondary weapons idea. That's in ZH anyways, but the aircraft with 3 weapons might get a bit confusing.

 

I'm also a littlw worried about the Rebel's combat engineer unit. Is that the only one that can build defenses? [edit] Oh I see now. They build the defenses that rebel troops can use. Sounds cool.

 

The site got a bit confusing for me, the 3 civs have a little different information layout each time, but you're trying to get the mod done and the site isn't really that important.

 

 

Can't wait for Public Beta. Been watching the progress bar for a long time. I just need to remember to install Gens/ZH on my new rig.

 

You hit it right on the nose. We've been so busy I haven't had much time to update that site... it is getting VERY outdated.

 

We need everyone's help because we want to get a public beta out ASAP. We're redoing many of the Imperial structures because we're trying to go for better quality.

 

Thanks guys, and I'll see what I can do about updating the site.

[swphreak]

Originally posted by JediBdm

Aircraft dont have 3.............they have to. Proton torpedoes, or lasers for the x-wing is a example. the torpedoes are limited while the lasers arent.

Y-Wing

Primary Weapon: 2 Laser cannons

Secondary Weapon: Proton Bombs

Secondary Weapon: Ion Cannon

K-Wing

Primary Weapon: 1 Light Turbolaser

Secondary Weapon: Proton Bombs

Secondary Weapon: Ion Cannon

 

Ok, that's only 2... but this may go under outdated information on the site... or both those secondary weapons fire at the same time...

[Mr. Painless]

If you have got that information from the site then yes it is outdated. The only things that are up-to-date are the progress bars, screenshots/images, News, and articles.

[Admiral Vostok]

Edan, again I apologise, I shouldn't go mouthing off at all the hard work you guys have put in.

 

Painless sent me the latest documents of the unit lists, but I guess the Rebel one must have been wrong. It still had all seven Astromechs, although I remembered you cutting them down to three on my suggestion I figured someone had complained since I left and you'd changed it back to seven. Also, it has in this Rebel document I've got that the B-Wing can be built by the vanilla faction, which is contrary to what you are all saying.

 

This really isn't the place to be discussing this sort of stuff in depth though. Edan, I look forward to chatting with you in MSN Messenger.

 

But ultimately, you guys should realise you have for the most part received positive responses towards IA. Don't feel you need to please me when you're already pleasing a large portion of the potential audience. For my part I'll cease the spread of my negative propaganda... though my comments didn't leave this forum and only a handful of people even read them.

 

[EDIT] Oh, and if you guys are looking for more positive responses I suggest you update the webpage with the new unit lists. It sounds like they haven't been changed since I was on the mod, even though I volunteered to change it and was told it was being done...

[DK_Viceroy]

The B-wing packed a considerable punch I called it an anti-capitol ship which is what it was but it's firepower would also have been good against the second death star

[Darth Windu]

Eden - any and all information i post about SW:IA is taken from your website, so any and all information that is posted incorrectly is the fault of those at IA, not mine, and i would appreciate it if you did not make statements such as you did without the relevant information.

[DK_Viceroy]

Don't be mad go away mad windu just go away.

 

Websites are often hard to keep upto date I my self know that especially when things chance every few days.

 

Windu in case you haven't noticed they are in the process of updating the sections.

 

Now for a new topic within this one.

 

Resources which ones whould we have and how should we maintain a war effort after exhausting them.

 

People from the last forum game will definetly be able to come up with interesting ideas after using up every bit of carbon on a 6 player map.

[Admiral Vostok]

Good topic, Viceroy.

 

The carbon issue is one that I remember occurring a lot back when I played Age of Kings (though it was wood rather than carbon obviously). I always thought it was pretty unrealistic that armies would just completely scour the land of trees in an effort to get more wood. At the end of the battle you've got a tree-less desert. That's why I prefer for wood/carbon not to be a resource in and of itself, I prefer it just to be a terrain feature that can be destroyed if need be (such as in Generals).

 

Not meaning to promote my own ideas again, but I think the idea of having a Credits resource that can be stockpiled by mining different unique resources (like plasma on Naboo, spice on Kessel, water on Tatooine and perhaps trees on Kashyyyk) would be cool, and quite Star Warsy. Basically this would be like Nova in SWGB1; you can also get it from trading and exchanging resources.

 

There should also be, in my opinion, between two and three other resources. My design has metal and gas as I feel they're the most StarWarsy, but of course it is open to debate.

 

As for maintaining a war effort after resources have been exhausted, I quite like the Generals approach (I know many will shudder) where late in the game there is some sort of expensive building you can set up that gives you a trickle of Credits. Both Windu and I have got this in our designs, and I'll admit I blatantly ripped it off Generals. Another concept that I have included (and I think Windu has too) is the idea of a neutral spaceport. Someone on the forums came up with that, can't remember who it was now though. Basically on most maps there would be a neutral town that included a spaceport that you could trade with as though they were an ally.

 

Things from SWGB1 like animal nurseries and holocrons that provide constant trickles... well I'm not a huge fan of these. The animal nursery one is okay (if food is a resource) but the holocron one is just a skin for AoK Relics, and doesn't make all that much sense in a Star Wars setting.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Originally posted by Admiral Vostok

Someone on the forums came up with that, can't remember who it was now though. Basically on most maps there would be a neutral town that included a spaceport that you could trade with as though they were an ally.

 

I hate you Vostok...I came up with that and you can't even remember it. You'ver hurt my feelings...

 

Well, I think its quite arguable. AoM's Plenty Vault worked well. I guess its a bit like General's building.

 

But then, should we make certain ressources infinite? It would certainly take care of the problem.

[Admiral Vostok]

I honestly thought it was you, but I didn't want to piss some-one off if I credited it wrong. Better to not credit at all than credit the wrong person... please accept my humble apologies and this humble gift:

 

I don't like infinite resources at all, though a trickle after they're used a la StarCraft's Vespene Gas is okay.

[FroZticles]

The unique resources for credits I'm not that happy about. I think it would be better if it was trading or destroying small camps on the map and looting there credits. You could also take an approach where you use harvestors and mine the resources out of the ground and it trickles to your stockpile if your template is 80% military and 20% economy. Plasma on Naboo isn't even a resource......

[DK_Viceroy]

This idea would propably be for late game where you see resources are beginning to run out you have a large base plenty of space.

 

You could build Synthisizers that could break down waste into constituant molecules and rearrange them into raw materials for a resource these could then be ferried by some sort of hovercraft to a Refinery {depending on resource} and make it useable.

 

you could build several of these and it would be for late game it would take a bit of work to get started but afterwards it would only need to be protected.

[Admiral Vostok]

Just because I think it will add to the discussion, here's the ideas for late-game Credit trickles I've got in my design:

 

Galactic Empire

Late in the game the Empire can upgrade one of their Spaceports to a Taxation Agency. They then get a trickle of Credits proportional to the amount of Prefab Shelters they have. The more Prefab Shelters, the higher the trickle. While this will mean Imperial Players build a lot of Prefab Shelters, I think it will work well; Imperial Prefab Shelters are cheap but don't support much population, meaning Imperial bases turn into somewhat of an urban sprawl. Taxation will mean they'll do this even more; and of course the downside is actually being able to move within the huge base.

 

Galactic Republic

Somewhat ripped-off the USA Supply Drop in Generals, the Republic can build Beacons late in the game, and every few minutes a ship will come in from orbit and drop an amount of credits. I thought despite the similarities to Generals, this ability suited the Republic really well, since it would capture the imagery from the film of dropships and gunships swooping in to quickly drop off their payloads.

 

Rebel Alliance

The Rebel Trader is a Smuggler. Late in the game, Smugglers can be tasked to smuggle instead of just trade with allies. They'll fly off the screen and return later on with a payload of Credits. The more Smugglers you build the more smuggling you can do.

 

Separatists

Because the Separatist Movement is made up of several different organisations, they can benefit from internal trading; if the Separatist player builds two IGBC Branches, Traders can trade between them instead of having to go to an ally.

Although I seem to have left it out of the design as it currently is, I also meant for the Separatists to have a second way to get Credits. Since Battle Droids can be recycled, dead Battle Droids will not fade away instantly like other dead units. Instead they'll slowly decay like when you kill a food animal in SWGB (so they do eventually fade, but take a long time). PK Droids can then gather Credits from the broken Battle Droids in order to build even more. If you start collecting the broken Battle Droid right away, you can almost get all the resources you spent on them back. This not only follows the movies well, but it encourages Battle Droids to be used where they might otherwise be neglected in favour of Super Battle Droids.

[DK_Viceroy]

not bad at all vostok.

 

I'm just wondering though since everyone seems to have adopted my commanders idea i'm wondeing how many people thought my idea for replacing the tech levels with prioirty levels were because if that is also widely accepted that could be upgraded to allow shipments of supplies { variuos resources }

[Admiral Vostok]

Which Commanders idea was that? You mean like C&C:Generals? I haven't adopted that. As for Priority Levels, I prefer my Classifications system.

[DK_Viceroy]

Because i thought perhaps you could upgrade the uplink center with a landing pad which you could use to order supplies in and there could be something like a 2 minute delay or you select that resucre and you get something like 100 of that resoucre a minute.