Amidala from Chop Shop Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Originally posted by Wilhuf And tearing objects from walls and hurling them at your foe? Too much fun! Especially if you have deformable walls, where you could use the Force push walls over, tear holes in structures, levitate chunks of debris, and throw them at targets. There is a map that has all of that (except deformable walls), the winner of the second levelsource.com duel map contest: http://www.lucasfiles.com/?s=&action=file&id=531 http://www.pcgamemods.com/5082 http://jediknight.filefront.com/file.info?ID=26775 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilhuf Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Thank you Amidala for those links. Fearis Incident is a good example of that increased environmental interaction. Allowing a little more persistent debris (echoes of Jedi Knight) would ramp up the throw/push/pull fun factor. Those kinds of interactive details create a more immersive "personal Star Wars fantasy world," as Kurgan identified. And the technology already exists in Q3tech to accomplish much of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 Even with ignore, you will still 'get in trouble' for laming, you just wont know it, because everyone else will see someone shout 'lamer' except you.... And the technology already exists in Q3tech to accomplish much of it. Thank you for backing me up (not in this thread, but in another, I explained how through scripting everything asked for in these threads, mostly, is possible) That's only the case if Raven does not clean up it's ****ty netcode that was made very apparent in JA. Half-Life's engine has been using it's VIP technology for more than a year, and it barely puts a dent in system resources. The sabers themselves are laggy, that might only be because Q3 wasnt *originally* designed for that. Like I said somewhere else, SP is the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AzureAngel Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 The sabers themselves are laggy, that might only be because Q3 wasnt *originally* designed for that. Like I said somewhere else, SP is the way to go. JO's sabers were not nearly as bad. It would have to do something with the newer JA code, but thats beyond my expertise. Kurgan: after reading your two long posts, I noticed you wanted to take the lightsaber out. I know you said it would be like DF 3 or something but isnt this a JK4 speculation thread? And finally to touch on whiners. Whiners=Everywhere. No matter what multiplayer game you play there will be whiners. Now if you whine when you play SP, well thats just sad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Originally posted by AzureAngel JO's sabers were not nearly as bad. It would have to do something with the newer JA code, but thats beyond my expertise. Kurgan: after reading your two long posts, I noticed you wanted to take the lightsaber out. I know you said it would be like DF 3 or something but isnt this a JK4 speculation thread? Actually I don't want to take out the lightsaber. Rather I was suggesting that this would GREATLY cut down on the problem we've been having in these two communities (JK2 & JA) with annoying silly people. Granted, we'd still have annoying silly people since every online gaming community has them, I was saying that something about "being able to play as Jedi" attracts and encourages these annoying silly people to be very annoying and silly. Their very narrow and restrictive, unchangable idea of gameplay (that they feel they must force on everyone else) is that of "honorable saber battles." If the saber is gone, it will be impossible for them to play the game, period, so they will be gone. As long as you can play as Jedi I say these people will be here. That doesn't mean we have to tolerate their stupidity and annoyances of course. As long as these games make money they will keep making them, and we'll keep having "h0n0rz" n00bs and whiners, unless a miracle happens and it falls out of fashion to try to force the pseudo-samurai antics into every single Jedi game ever. As to the code, well, you have a different hit location style in this game vs. JK2. In JK2 you couldn't target individual limbs, you didn't have locational damage, etc. Could this be improved? Perhaps, but for now it simply takes more data to do it now than it took to do the simpler system in JK2. It isn't just the sabers, but this system affects all weapons. Still, if you can think of another online MP game that uses melee weapons as versatile as the lightsaber and without the "problems" you describe, then perhaps they should use the engine and/or expertise of THOSE developers for the next game (assuming Raven can't upgrade their system to what you and others are demanding). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Blackrose Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Originally posted by Kurgan In JK2 you couldn't target individual limbs, you didn't have locational damage, etc. Could this be improved? Perhaps, but for now it simply takes more data to do it now than it took to do the simpler system in JK2. It's starting to get old to repeat this every time I hear the situation come up: JKII DID HAVE LOCATION DAMAGE/HITBOXES UNTIL IT WAS NIXED IN THE 1.03 PATCH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Just make it so you cant disable weapons, its hard to chat and role play if someone can attack from a distance. With the saber you have to be up close, so... they know your going to attack, with a gun you could snipe them a mile away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_night Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 Just make it so you cant disable weapons, its hard to chat and role play if someone can attack from a distance. With the saber you have to be up close, so... they know your going to attack, with a gun you could snipe them a mile away. Saber throw and force lightning level 2 are awesome long range attacks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amidala from Chop Shop Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 I'm curious, those of you who have played a lot of other popular action\FPS games online: How common is it to have servers that have most of the weapons disabled, the way Jedi Academy servers have all guns and most Force powers disabled? Aren't Jedi Academy (and Jedi Outcast) servers really, um, "special" compared to other servers out there? I've been thinking that we have too many options for configuring servers. Just think how different Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy would have been if we had never been able to: change the Force regeneration time disable any Force powers disable any weapons change saber damage and the SDK had never been released so mod makers couldn't make those cvars available or create admin mods. Everyone would have played with full weapons, all Force powers enabled, and default Force regeneration (and JK2 1.02 saber damage), not known anything different, and probably have been perfectly happy. Raven could have issued intelligent patches but there would have been no admin mods and no saber-only most-Force-powers-disabled admin-modded "FFA dueling" servers where the "honor" plague first festered and then, like a ripened zit, splattered all over the Jedi Knight community. There would have been less fracturing of the community because everyone would have been playing basically the same game. It coulda had class. It coulda been a contender. It coulda been somebody, instead of a bum, which is what it is, let's face it. (Everyone under 20 is thinking "wtf?" about what I just paraphrased). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Originally posted by AzureAngel JO's sabers were not nearly as bad. It would have to do something with the newer JA code, but thats beyond my expertise. Then why not just set the cvar to turn the game back to the JO hit detection? How does the JA version of the JO style compare? Originally posted by [nWo] Filth If they make jk4 with the same bugs that jk2 had in saber use i'll be very happy. all those pathes for jk2 fixed the wrong things. and jka just ruined them more. What should they have fixed? Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop I've been thinking that we have too many options for configuring servers. Just think how different Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy would have been if we had never been able to: * change the Force regeneration time * disable any Force powers * disable any weapons * change saber damage I like the idea of having the Force regeneration time constant. As for disabling Force powers, I don't want some enabled and some disabled, but I don't mind having them either all enabled or disabled. Same with the weapons. If the saber damage was a fair bit higher than it is now (2-4x) then a constant damage would be great. I've found on your servers that the saber is a comparable weapon to guns when the damage is respectable. Originally posted by Amidala from Chop Shop and the SDK had never been released so mod makers couldn't make those cvars available or create admin mods. This would be the best change, I think. Although there have been some great mods like Promod (even though I didn't play it), OJP, and so one, there have been far more of the ridiculous admin mods that have done nothing to improve the game. And it took a game which already had a lot of options and gave it far too many. It is at the point now where almost no two servers are alike. And the vast majority of admin mods don't take balance into consideration at all. I think now that limiting the options for the most part would create a stronger community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 So, in the next JK game, dont give admins a lot options. Instead of patches they should have had small *free* expansion packs, with bonus levels and models. The main problem with JA was that server bug, and some ATI and CD problems, other than that, it was fine. Actually if I remember correctly patches to HL mods had new maps and stuff in them too... so, thats what raven should have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiser_Cain Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Less options is a bad thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hiroki Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Yeah...why would you make a sequel with LESS features? I think they should work harder on balence this time. The dual sabers, and especially the lightsaber staff, are extreamly unbalenced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 I can wish for the best game in the world, but I can't control how many stupid people try to ruin the game or how many bad mods come out that become popular. So, heh... I agree though, more options are better. But people will never be satisfied with what they get, witness the admin mods and the endless saber dynamic changing mods in this and JK2. For JA they really cut down on the patches. 1 Patch instead of 2 and it fixed bugs rather than changing gameplay (except for the backroll). They DID release several free maps, but they were seperate from the patches this time. I agree though, the server bug was a major problem, and the bots were very poorly supported this time around. As if LucasArts didn't give them enough time to polish things up at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiser_Cain Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Make your own server or shop around for a server you like. I avoid the servers that I hate fairly easily. If they told you more about the server before you logged on it'd be even easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master William Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 I think they should add something to make not everyone equal all the time, make the powers and all more advanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Originally posted by Weiser_Cain Less options is a bad thing I agree that options are good. But there comes a point where there are too many (such as with admin mods). It gets to the point where no two servers are alike. Originally posted by Hiroki I think they should work harder on balence this time. I think the balance was pretty good in the base game. Admin mods with tons of pointless options unbalanced a lot of things. Originally posted by Hiroki The dual sabers, and especially the lightsaber staff, are extreamly unbalenced. How so? In the basejk game, they are very well balanced. Personally, I find the single saber to be the most powerful. Originally posted by Hiroki I think they should add something to make not everyone equal all the time They already have that. It is called admin mods. Admins are no longer equal to everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonepadawan Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Not giving the SDK would however mean no modding support, and kill editing and therefore the game fairly fast. If they kept the same engine for both SP and MP (Ala JK1) and released the SDK for both the game would prehaps last as long as JK1 has (people STILL make mods and levels for JK1) I don't particularly care about the state of MP (which seems to be all thats being discussed here) since I can't play MP much except on LAN. But a strong SP would be nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 That would cut into mod making, but people could still make maps and skins, which constitute the vast majority of mods made for any editable game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Originally posted by Kurgan That would cut into mod making, but people could still make maps and skins, which constitute the vast majority of mods made for any editable game... Egg-xatly. And after seeing the response to the AOTC TC demo release, all the vast majority of players want is new models, skins, and maps. These are all possible without the SDK. Between that and cvars, the game is very editable without the source code. The main result of the SDK is admin mods. I hardly think the community would die without those... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master William Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Originally posted by Prime They already have that. It is called admin mods. Admins are no longer equal to everyone else. In terms of gameplay - not commands - is what I was referring to. Wolfenstein had some sort of rank feature, would be neat if the next JK game had that. Not something that make the Dark Jedi Masters superior to someone who was a Dark Jedi Apprentice, just very minor bonuses like Force Regeneration or how much damage your Force side power does (Jedis will stick to Light powers, Dark Jedis to Dark powers, etc). But I have forseen the response to this idea, and it's a negative one. Make the next JK game more unique, not just a hack-slash FPS... add some more things to make it unique. Too bad we're all posting all these ideas for nothing, I haven't even heard of another JK game on its way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Amidala: I must say that I was on your CTF server (instagib) yesterday and was wishing for an "ignore" feature for a player that was flooding the text area for like 5 min. It was real hard to see. Great fun beyond that idiot. I think that the idea of being able to go to spectator mode without losing all your points is a good one. There's been many times that I wanted to get up to get another cup of coffee or piss away the previous one... or answer the phone, get my 2-year old off the counter, etc. I would also like to see cooperative play. I envision a game set in the Jedi purge period where the empire has sent bountyhunters and imperials to find and erradicate the Jedi. Missions could be escape and evasion; link up with other Jedi; sabotage imperial installations; meet with rebel agent(s) as Jedi; meet with Jedi as a rebel agent; etc., etc. The SP game would be easy to imagine, but a multiplayer game with NPCs that the player (whether bountyhunter or Jedi) could blend in with would be interesting. The goal of the imperial/bountyhunter side would be counter to that of the Jedi goals and each would benefit from trying to stay hidden. The trick would be that the unarmed player would have to look like NPCs and not be carrying around a lightsaber. Also, killing NPCs would have a negative effect on the score (much like falling off a cliff), encouraging both sides not to kill wildly. As a team, the players would have to work together to acheive their goals, some being body guards, spies and observers, while others going for the main objective. Chat bubbles would have to be done away with, which will get rid of some of the "chat-kill" complaints. In a game like that, there can be no honor-rulz complaints, since the goal is to kill your enemy while remaining hidden for as long as possible. To figure out who the enemy is different techniques could be used: the imperials/bountyhunters could have a darkforce jedi that can use forcesense then tell his/her teammates; the Jedi could do the same. The balance to that is by using forcesense, you give yourself away in some subtle way. Also, the players would have to learn to act like NPCs! Mimic their movements.. and avoid movements that NPCs don't do, like try to jump to precipaces or stick to walls.... Of course, I'd like to see duel and ffa/tffa gamemodes stay, but with some of the changes that others here have noted. I have to agree with Wilhuf on the tournament mode for multiplayer as well as the ignore player function. He also raises a valid point about voice chat: the profanity and stupidity will just take on a new form... I personally prefer not to here the squeeky voice of a 12 year-old uttering so-called adult language. The mute button only eliminates the ability to communicate altogether, but perhaps individual mutes for each player...? Amidala: Good reasons for public chat - answering questions of new players quickly & efficiently; organizing a vote kick (not everyone may be clear on why a kick was called for vote); organizing a map switch (asking everyone what map they might prefer); general commeraderie during the game (I enjoy games where chatting is kept to a minimum, but I have to acknowledge that there are times when I like making quick comments to those I know or have played with previously); and, for large maps with few people, letting everyone know where each other are located within the map, "big brawl in the Throne Room!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weiser_Cain Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Originally posted by Kurgan That would cut into mod making, but people could still make maps and skins, which constitute the vast majority of mods made for any editable game... Even OJP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_night Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Originally posted by Weiser_Cain Even OJP? Or Forcemod III? Or Movie Battles II? What about Promod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Originally posted by Master William In terms of gameplay - not commands - is what I was referring to. So was I. Admins can be empowered (or whatever the term is these days) and do whatever they want to you. They can make it so they don't take damage. They can make it so they have powers you don't. That is all in terms of gameplay. Uneven abilities are great when you are the one who is at the top. It is not so fun when you are at the bottom. Are you willing to always be the apprentice and allow me to be the master? Originally posted by Weiser_Cain Even OJP? Originally posted by AIVAS Or Forcemod III? Or Movie Battles II? What about Promod? Those are all great mods. But Kurgan said the vast majority, not all mods. But the mods you mention sort of proves his point. How many people played Promod compared to hoe many used the Vader model? IIRC there were only a few servers with Promod. Doing a quick look on jk3files, the JA+ admin mod has 6433 downloads and JA reloaded has 3811. But someone makes an Anakin model and it gets 9932 downloads, and FFA maps like Shroom's Deathstar has 11928. The numbers are not really important. The point is that skins, models, and maps get the most use and constitute the majority of the mods out there. This is not to say that the "code-altering mods" can't be of the utmost quality, nor that they can't be popular. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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