Increasing stupidity...

[jon_hill987]

Like the recent scare tactics to get everybody in the UK to except ID cards, and the biggy before that was scareing eveyone in the US into the war against "terror", Of course most of the terror comes from our own govenments trying to scare the public, telling them there is a threat.

 

And da dumer we is the more esilly the can make us do stuff. Less edukated people tend to beleve wot dey seed on TV so take the speaches as truth.

[El Sitherino]

Originally posted by wildjedi

You know what? Every test is different and each has its own scoring sheet. What does this tell you?

actually it's to cut down on cheating. Too many people would look over onto someone elses sheet and copy their answers.

 

The SAT is actually one of the few things to not be dumbed down in the american education system.

[Spider AL]

I'm not sure every educator would agree with you there, InsaneSith. I recall quite a lot of kerfuffle over questionable changes to the SATs over the past decade.

[El Sitherino]

Originally posted by Spider AL

I'm not sure every educator would agree with you there, InsaneSith. I recall quite a lot of kerfuffle over questionable changes to the SATs over the past decade.

that may be. but it's hardly been dumbed down. They may have eased up a few segments. But other parts have had more complexity added to them.

[Breton]

Originally posted by Spider AL

It's what's already happened, Breton. Our workforces are notoriously deskilled, and with the constant dumbing-down of our education system and the desire to keep wages low and hours high, it can only get worse.

 

False.

 

More people than ever take higher education. People's reading abilities are better than ever. And so on.

If you want, I can point to statistics about it.

 

If you believe otherwise, as you obviously do, why don't you give some sources of that theory?

 

Technology is always improving, which changes what education is needed and what's not. Less people can do more work. Higher education is more needed, but is also more common.

People today are better educated than for 50 years ago.

 

Many don't have the necessary competence at the moment. That's the point. All the people in the UK with A-levels who can't spell or speak English correctly, for instance. They can get a job or a university place on the strength of those dumbed-down qualifications... that they don't deserve.

 

AFAIK, society is working better than ever, even with our "dumbed down" education system (which isn't dumbed down at all, just more effective and humane and less cruel and competive).

 

Your argument simply doesn't hold water, I'm afraid. There's nothing to back them up with.

 

Heh. They're handing out diplomas for free. It doesn't take much motivation to grab one.

 

They do not.

 

It's too obvious that you've never been to one of those schools. Don't alledge what you can't support.

 

Yes. Competition is vital to the human spirit, and should be taught at an early age. Those with drive and intelligence will rise to the top and claim that which they are best suited for... responsibility. An atmosphere should be created in which children are MOTIVATED to increase their knowledge, to compete with their peers and to succeed.

 

Competition discourages cooperation and friendship, it creates pressure and stress and is unnecessary cruel towards children.

 

It also creates A- and B-students, of which the less able students will fall behind and get little chance to learn anything, and probably will be forced to live in poverty even though they, with the right education, could be just as educated as the smartest kiddo.

 

Conservatives often see competition and pressure as a necessary evil. But it isn't necessary at all.

 

Ha! Your "humane" school system isn't very humane to really intelligent kids who get their qualifications... only to find that they're worthless because they've been given to everyone else regardless of intellect or skill.

 

If you are saying that people shouldn't get jobs without the necessary competance for the job, then of course I agree with you, just as any sensible person would.

 

But that's not what happens in today's society. People are taking more higher education. People are more qualified for jobs. Education is improving, in more than one way.

 

Exactly, that's what we'd like. But it ain't happening at the moment, matey.

 

Oh, but it is.

 

Suffered? You're the only one who's used that word. It's nothing to do with suffering, it's how much a candidate has learned that's RELEVANT to the job. Holding a degree in English doesn't even mean you can SPELL anymore!

 

As long as they have the necessary competance (which they have in today's society), they should be able to get their jobs.

 

Besides, spelling is unimportant.

 

Long enough to remember how it started going downhill to end in this sorry-state of a cesspit.

 

I figured it was a long time.

 

As you obviously can't remember how it is to be on school.

 

Are you even SERIOUS? SMARTER? Have you heart of the relevant US statistics? Seen the UK news reports? pfft. Our countries are sinking into utter ignorance, and to be ignorant of that fact is truly counterproductive.

 

More people are taking higher education, and my impression is that competance is very much in place.

 

It would be interesting to see statistics that prove your points.

 

Heh heh heh. If you're a professional cartographer you might find such knowledge very useful.

 

And if you're a fellow human being, you might want to know about compassion and cooperation, abilities that a competition society doesn't breed.

 

about kids competing aginst each other:

 

schools may have done away with "winners and losers" , but life has not.

 

we must teach kids at an early age to prepare them for the real world.

 

Only conservative societies have "winners" and "losers".

What we need (and what I have to some degree here in Norway) is a society that takes care of every individual, through equal rights, cooperation and generally being nice. We need a safety net.

 

You suggest to tutor your children into participating in a cruel society.

 

 

 

BTW, nice fact: People with high education tend to be more socialist than people with lower education.

[Spider AL]

More people than ever take higher education.

I believe that's my point. More people than ever are getting into universities because the standard of knowledge necessary to gain the qualifications to obtain a university place... is lower. Of course more people are getting in, because exams have been dumbed down.

 

People's reading abilities are better than ever.

Oh literacy levels may be better than they were in PREHISTORIC EGYPT, but that's hardly relevant. The relevant point is that even college GRADUATES have relatively poor language skills in the modern, dumbed-down education environment.

 

If you want, I can point to statistics about it.

Oh, please do. I'll tell you exactly why they're doctored and/or irrelevant. The more evidence we have to evaluate, the better this debate will be.

 

If you believe otherwise, as you obviously do, why don't you give some sources of that theory?

Mmkay:

 

http://education.guardian...34,00.html. This is the story... in my home country. Quotable quotes:

 

"We should reward good spelling and good grammar and the use of correct punctuation, and we should penalise errors. I have no doubt about that because it is at the heart of good literacy." (Competition necessary )

 

"Universities have repeatedly claimed that even the brightest undergraduates are lacking in basic skills in grammar and spelling. Last week, Mike Tomlinson, head of a review of the 14 to 19 curriculum, claimed the current situation, whereby pupils do not lose marks for grammar and spelling, was "hard to defend"."

(University standards dropping)

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/kansa...14/focus2.html This is the story in the good old U.S. of A.

 

http://www.nea.gov/pub/ReadingAtRisk.pdf And here, a little report on the decline of recreational reading.

 

Quotables:

 

"According to the U.S. Department of Education's National Center for Education Statistics, the Third International Mathematics and Science Study (TIMSS), the largest international comparative study of education achievement, found in 2000 that U.S. high school seniors tested in math ranked 15th of 21 nations. "

 

"The percentage of U.S. adults reading literature dropped from 56.4 percent in 1982 to 46.7 percent in 2002 - a decline of almost 10 percentage points."

 

People today are better educated than for 50 years ago.

Not in the UK and US they're not. More people can string enough of a sentence together to order a cheeseburger at McCrappalds, granted... They can sign their name... but that doesn't make the population better educated when compared to a society in which university graduates were expected to have at least a solid knowledge of history, the sciences, the arts and language before they left.

 

AFAIK, society is working better than ever, even with our "dumbed down" education system (which isn't dumbed down at all, just more effective and humane and less cruel and competive).

Society... working... better than ever...

 

 

Mmkay.

 

Optimism is no better than pessimism, Breton. It's a deceitful mindset. Realism is the ideal.

 

You seem to have a "thing" about the "cruelty" of competition. Life is cruel. One must get used to it. You want to run a business when you grow up? Learn to compete. You want to become a singer, artist or musician when you grow up? Learn to take constructive criticism. You want to run a shop? Learn to compete.

 

What's CRUEL, is not preparing children for the real world.

 

It's too obvious that you've never been to one of those schools. Don't alledge what you can't support.

Assume makes an ass of "u" and me. You know nothing about my educational history nor the education of my friends and relatives. Such arrogance to think that you've "sussed" someone after three posts on a message board. Such utter arrogance.

 

Competition discourages cooperation and friendship, it creates pressure and stress

Those who cooperate, win. Competition encourages team play. Pressure and stress are part of life. Better to be accustomed to a certain level of competitive excitement when young, than to be suprised by it when older.

 

Conservatives often see competition and pressure as a necessary evil.

Actually we see it as NECESSARY. Not evil at all. Your knowledge of the minds of conservatives leaves much to be desired.

 

But that's not what happens in today's society. People are taking more higher education. People are more qualified for jobs.

No they're not. The business community in the UK and US is constantly complaining that even university graduates have poor spelling, grammar, punctuation, poor knowledge of finance and a poor work-ethic.

 

Besides, spelling is unimportant.

QED. Anyone who believes that the cornerstone of written language, one of the earliest skills one is supposed to learn in one's life, is unimportant... Well suffice it to say that they're unqualified to comment on the state of the education system in general.

 

What we need (and what I have to some degree here in Norway) is a society that takes care of every individual

Norway eh. That means you're doubly unsuited to discuss the dismal state of the education system in the UK.

 

As for a society that takes care of the individual... A society in which everyone's deskilled isn't caring for any individual except the politician who's doing the dumbing-down.

 

BTW, nice fact: People with high education tend to be more socialist than people with lower education.

Nicer fact: Those that run the world tend to be more conservative. They must know something trendy-lefties don't.

[ShadowTemplar]

Originally posted by Breton

Do we really want a society where children have to compete each other?

 

Children do compete with each other. Fact of life. The question is: Do we want them to compete in the field of Math or the field of Bullying?

 

While you can certainly create a school system that puts no pressure on the students, that would not remove the competition, merely turn it from an intellectual aspiration into a popularity contest.

 

IMO, schools are quite good today. At least they are far better than 50 years ago.

Children learn when they're having fun.

 

Problem being, they don't learn enough, and they don't learn fast enough. You simply cannot learn multiplication without boring excercise. Learning to read, write and calculate is like learning to walk: It takes a thousand attempts to learn. And you topple 999 times.

 

Also, SAT tests don't give a very good picture of what students learn. Sure, children no longer have to memorize all the countries of the world. But they definatly learn other, more important things, that you won't learn by sitting inside with a school book all day.

 

Lemme guess. You're Scandinavian. OK, so maybe it's not a problem that the kiddoes can't place Belgrade on a map. But it is a problem that they can't carry out simple mathematical operations like 7*6 without the use of a pocket calculator. It is a problem that they spend more than 15 minutes reading a standard page. It is a very big problem that they can't place WWII relative to the collapse of the USSR on a timeline.

 

That seems to be the same point. I mean, the kid wouldn't be going around bullying other kids and kicking them if his parents had instilled in him a sense of moral responsibility.

 

*cough*bullsh*cough*

 

In my experience, preventing bullying falls primarily to the school. Morality is something that children develop throughout their childhood. Thus schools must maintain certain standards of behavior, irrespective of the actions and inactions of the parents. I believe that very few parents work actively to undermine the school's authority. Thus, if there are problems of bullying and undiciplined behavior, the school usually has only itself to thank.

 

The school is probably the most important factor in forming the morals of modern children. This is a tremendous responsibility, and one that too many modern teachers take far too lightly.

 

I don't know what happened in other areas of education, but as for my study, Physics, things have definitely not improved over the past few decades. 20 yrs ago Danish High School curriculum included Rigid Body Dynamics and AC-circiuts. They got dumped. And the reform of the High School system that we are currently implementing dumps DC circiuts and what's left of Electromagnetic Dynamics.

 

These have been left out of the high-level curriculum in order to encourage those who would normally take only low-level classes in Physics to take more high-level classes. Didn't work, though. Net result: First year of UNI, you have to learn Rigid Bodies and Electro in two months. That simply can't be good.

 

I would claim that there is not a single person in the world who does not posses the nessecary mathematical talent to learn basic Newtonian and Relativistic Dynamics and understand a Gauss-distribution. That we fail to convey these things to modern children can only be the result of carelessness or a terminal lack of ambition.

 

The continued weakening of the population's basic scientific and mathematical education serves only to enclose the Science departments of the Universities onto themselves, creating isolated enclaves and accusations of 'Ivory Tower Intellectuals.'

 

Science today is already isolated from the rest of society by prejudice and what I can only call primitive superstition. There is absolutely no need to further the alienation between scientists and the populace at large.

[Spider AL]

*cough*bullsh*cough*

 

In my experience, preventing bullying falls primarily to the school. Morality is something that children develop throughout their childhood. Thus schools must maintain certain standards of behavior, irrespective of the actions and inactions of the parents.

That was originally a point unrelated to the issue of schools. But now that you've decided to connect them, I couldn't agree more that teachers should do a better job of stopping bullies... but I must disagree with your idea that the parents and their teachings have little to do with it.

 

One starts school at four or so years of age. The first years of life are those in which it is easiest to teach core principles. Thus, it is up to parents to instill basic morals during that time. Now, you can believe what you wish as regards the importance of parental influence and call it "bullsh*t", but I know better from experience. My parents taught me that it was wrong to use physical force or psychological abuse to get what I want.

 

So I never did.

 

And neither did my siblings. Common factor = parents.

 

Yes, schools should enforce the rule. But if parents are producing sociopathic little monsters, they WILL be bullying other kids, and will have to be expelled.

[toms]

Originally posted by Spider AL

Yes, schools should enforce the rule. But if parents are producing sociopathic little monsters, they WILL be bullying other kids, and will have to be expelled.

 

And based on the chavs (new fave word ) around swindon that is exactly what they are doing. Stop a kid bullying any you are likely to get beaten up by the parent.

-----------------------------

I for one have never bought the whole "standards are declining, things are getting worse" attitude. You can find articels from the 50s, 00s, 1800s, and all the way back to the roman era complaining that "it was better in my day" and "kids these days have it so easy".

 

It may be true in limited ways, but it balances itself out.

 

Life today is WAY, WAY more complex than life was even twenty years ago, there is so much more that kids (and us adults) need to deal with. Our educational needs are no longer the same as they were, and our life skill needs have changed as well.

 

In some ways the education system IS failing to meet the needs of people in this modern society, but on the whole I'd place much of the blame (where blame is needed) on the values of society as a whole.

 

Everything is very consumer, money oriented. But everything we are shown is also very instant. You just have to look at these "pop idol" or "survivor" type programmes to see that people are willing to do anything to get a moment of fame.. because they all feel that if they can just get noticed then they will get the riches they deserve. The culture of wanting a steady job that you will work hard at all your life for stead pay is gone now (along with a lot of the stead jobs). Things move a lot faster and people expect things instantly, and of course, you don't appreciate things that you don't work for.

 

Add that to the massively widening weath gap and you have a problem with a whole genreation who have grown up thinging that there is no reason to work hard at school just to get a dull, unstable job... and that they might as well do as little as possible while they wait for their big break to hit them. (as we all know it does from tv and films).

 

This is where the media impacts our lives 9that and mindnumbingly stupid programmes and films)... not with it's violence or its nudity.

------------------------

If it were up to me to start with a completely clean slate and design a brand new school system off the top of my head:

- Teach useful life skills and social responisbility as well.

- Kids start at 4 with 2 days a week, this then increases by one day a year until they have five days a week at age 7. This splits responsibilty between parents and schools.

- Schools are run in local groups, so they can share facilities and timetables and if one can't provide a service the kids can use that service at another.

- Schools are paired with other schools in entirely opposite areas (rich and poor, black and white, etc..) with video linkups and exchanges and penpals.

- No decisions on what courses to take until you are at least 18. Instead have everything being worth a certain number of credits, and you need a certain number of credits to move up to the next elvel. These can be obtained at any rate you like, and with any combination of subjects you like.

- Mandatory work experience at age 14, for six months or a year. This counts towards your credits.

- International Baccalaureate style degree course at 18, that you don't need to specialise in until as late as possible.

[Cpt. Bannon]

As for the SAT, it's being dumbed down taking effect Q1 2005. They have removed the analogies section, which was used for a long time as it is an excellent measure of your IQ, or how quickly/effectively you connect ideas. They have also added another 800 point essay section. This section (IMHO) will kill any shred of objectivism left in this "objective evaluation," as essays cannot be graded objectively.

[Mike Windu]

Last I heard the essay was only for SAT 2.

 

Oh well, good thing I'm an ace writer

 

 

Honestly, around here (Tennessee) there are some good schools, i.e. mine. Gifted kids can go into upper level classes that others could not last in. Rigorous college prep type classes, very good learning.

 

I took the PSAT and PLAN ( pre act) a couple months ago... both were fairly easy.

 

Now if they remove the analogies section on the SAT, I'll be pissed. I rock at those..

[Shok_Tinoktin]

It was only for the SAT II. I've heard that it will soon be on the regular SAT as well.

[kipperthefrog]

Like the recent scare tactics to get everybody in the UK to except ID cards, and the biggy before that was scareing eveyone in the US into the war against "terror", Of course most of the terror comes from our own govenments trying to scare the public, telling them there is a threat.

 

 

In America, they used the "color alert level" scheme to scare people. when alert level "red was up, I thought, If terrorist would act up again, they would do it when LEAST expected. HOW DUMB! I never worried.

[Cpt. Bannon]

Originally posted by Shok_Tinoktin

It was only for the SAT II. I've heard that it will soon be on the regular SAT as well.

 

This december (cant remember the actual date) is the last test date for the old SAT (not SAT II) After that date, all tests administered will have more algebra 2, no analogies section, and an essay section.

[Mike Windu]

Originally posted by kipperthefrog

In America, they used the "color alert level" scheme to scare people. when alert level "red was up, I thought, If terrorist would act up again, they would do it when LEAST expected. HOW DUMB! I never worried.

 

Last I saw... this was a thread about stupidity/school systems...

 

Tell me, what does the alert level have to do with our education?

 

... Dirty bastards... they did change it...

 

taken directly from collegeboard.com

 

The SAT is changing in March 2005, but students shouldn't worry. The College Board will help them prepare with information, sample tests and free and low-cost preparation materials.

 

Some of the changes to the SAT include:

 

A student-written essay

Analogies eliminated

Shorter reading passages added

New content from third-year college preparatory math

Quantitative Comparisons eliminated

 

Damnit. The new SAT will suck.

 

[Loopster]

I never did like the analogies section. It seemed more like an exercise in "recall what you read in the thesarus! You do read the thesarus every other hour of every other day, do you not!?! If not, you're screwed at the end of this section of the test!" I wonder if the new math problems and essay are going to make up for the loss of that, the removal of the Quantitative Comparisons, and the shortening of the reading section. For me it seemed like the analogies would never end, so there must be something big to replace what's gone.

[kipperthefrog]

Originally posted by Mike Windu

Last I saw... this was a thread about stupidity/school systems...

 

Tell me, what does the alert level have to do with our education?

 

 

my apoligies..

 

let me tell you a story.

 

 

I had a friend in middle school who never did any of his work. He got the worst grades on his report card i ever seen. %6 in math, %13 in english, %12 in science.

 

my parents tried to help him with his homework.If he did his homework, we promised to take him to see wrestling, the salvation army promised to give him his own computer and his mom told him he'd give him $20.

 

...but when he was at our house to study, he just rolled around on the floor kicking and screaming like a big baby. he refused to do his school work.

 

He got suspended once, and he was happy. He soon quit high school and he quit a lot of jobs (including McDonalds and Captain D's) in a week or less becuase he didn't want to clean toilets or do dishes. now he can't get a job, Goodwill won't hire him.

 

 

-The question is, are the education systems lacking, or are the students not trying and just playing nintindo all the time???

[Ray Jones]

or is it just some bad role models?

[kipperthefrog]

It could also mean parents are not making kids do their very best:

 

the friend I told you about, his mother works all the time at convenience stores all day long, long hours and low pay. she is never there to make his boys do their school work.

[Ray Jones]

maybe she is working to earn money to buy food for her children?

[kipperthefrog]

Originally posted by RayJones

maybe she is working to earn money to buy food for her children?

 

She obviosly is. Now that she has to work all the time, she has no time to make them do their homework.

[toms]

Originally posted by kipperthefrog

my apoligies..

 

let me tell you a story.

...

-The question is, are the education systems lacking, or are the students not trying and just playing nintindo all the time???

 

The problem there is motivation.

 

When you are younger it is hard to thing things through 1 hour ahead, let alone 15 years ahead... yet what you do between the ages of 5 and 15 will affect almost everything that happens in your life.

 

Unfortunately there isn't a lot you can do about that... it is all very well TELLING kids that their whole future rides on this stuff... but they don't believe it. THey have no reason to. I was a good boy in school, but i still didn't realise the extent to which my choices then would still affect me now.

 

This is part of the reason why I would like some form of long term work experience/"real life" experience built into the system at a fairly young age. After experiencing the boredom of a 9-5 drone job they might realise that they could avoid it by concentrating now.

 

Exclusions are a terrible idea... most kids who are excluded love it. Free time. Then they end up with no qualifications. No job. Turn to crime. Wonderfull. There is a scheme starting up round here when instead of expelling kids they force them to attend and work harder... in silence... seperate from their friends. And make it 12-6pm so that they can't meet up with their mates at lunch or after school. They have almost zero percent reoffenders.

 

The other problem your friend has is that, although he now probably wishes he had worked harder, it is too late to do much about it. He is stuck in a life he chose without realising. There needs to be better options for people to re-educate themselves.

 

Personally i think you should dump the "grades" system and have some form of "level up":D system. Split the system into say 5 levels that each take about 2 years to complete. You need to get a certain number of "experience points":D to "level up". Take how long and how many modules you want to reach this total (within reason). Take loads of modules at basic level, or take a few at more advanced levels and get more points.

 

This way, if your friend had reached level 2 before giving up, he could always rejoin later (after getting fed up with grunt work) and work towards the next level. Insert a bit of "level appropriate" work experience at each level and kids could see that their efforts were paying off for later life.

 

This would also have the benefit of preventing early specialisation (something i hate). I basically went throguh school getting good grades, but of course i had no idea what i wanted to DO with my life. So the subjects i took had no purpose. Then my degree was determined by what random courses i had chosen. Then my job decided by my degree.

Unfortunately, I want to do something completely different (as do most of my mates), but because of a random choice i made at the age of about 12 i'm in the wrong area.

 

Sorry, rambled on a bit there... purely theoretical ramblings of an old fool..

[Mike Windu]

+1 Algebra II

+1 English

+10 Reading Comprehension

Bonus +5 Chemistry

 

LEVEL UP!

 

Mike Windu has now become Silver Prodigy.

 

 

 

I agree. Young people have a difficult time thinking ahead. Most of this generation only cares about what happens as far as a week from the current time.

 

Sad sad future...

[kipperthefrog]

Originally posted by toms

 

 

Personally i think you should dump the "grades" system and have some form of "level up":D system. Split the system into say 5 levels that each take about 2 years to complete. You need to get a certain number of "experience points":D to "level up". Take how long and how many modules you want to reach this total (within reason). Take loads of modules at basic level, or take a few at more advanced levels and get more points.

 

 

I think what you describe is an "RPG" game system. Level up to reach level 10 to get high payng jobs to become more powerfull. is that what you mean? make it more like an RPG game, might work if the kids get something out of it.

 

In the speacal school i was in, the teacher rewarded us with sticks and tickets.10 sticks is a ticket. Every friday, the teacher opened a shop, with toys in it. we pick out a toy with the cost of tickets.

 

Maybie all we need is a reward system in the schools such as this to motivate kids!

[Cpt. Bannon]

You shouldn't have to bribe kids to learn.

 

A student-written essay

Objectivism eliminated.

Analogies eliminated

Measure of active learning capacity eliminated.

Shorter reading passages added

So now there's even less of a challenge there...

New content from third-year college preparatory math

Too bad most people take Algebra 2 senior year (yes it's sad but true)

Quantitative Comparisons eliminated

So now we dont even have to show that we can link concepts.

 

So....what of value, aside from some math, does the SAT have left?