Religion???

[jedispy]

Taken from Kant, "Good Will," ed. Serafini, p. 31.

If now the action is good only as a means to something else, then the imperative is hypothetical; if it is conceived as good in itself and consequently as being necessarily the principle of a will which of itself conforms to reason, then it is categorical

 

So what you tell me, Mythos, that you only do something "moral" if you feel it to be so in and of itself, regardless of possible outcome? Well I know a certain Austrian man named Adolf Hitler did that once. Hey...how'd that turn out by the way?

 

Mythos

I life striktly after the categorical imperative, because I know, this is the right thing to do.

 

But HOW do you know that? What if Kant was wrong?

 

"Praise me or go to hell"

Actually, your quote doesn't appear in the Bible at all. It's more like accept this free gift. But I understand your paraphrase and interpretation as such.

[The Hidden One]

Jehovah Witnesses? Didn't they annunciate the Apocalypse 5 times till today - and were always wrong?

 

Sin: I don't confess to be a sinner. I do some thinks, that sould be a sin after the bible: Sometime I missuse (word?) god's name ("Oh my god." and such). I love to eat. I am proud. I had and plan to have sex without marriage.

But I don't feel guilty for it.

There are thinks I feel guilty for, I lied a few times, was mean to other people some times. However, 1st: This was years ago, I was a kid, I could not know it better. 2nd: Other then catholics, I have no man who forgives me.

 

I life striktly after the categorical imperative, because I know, this is the right thing to do. And this is what sin, as a moral concept should be, not as a theological: Disobeying conscience, doing thinks you wouldn't want other do to you and such thinks

 

And if there is an all-loving god, he should value this, not wheather I eat fish or meat on fridays.

 

 

But this is not the real problem I have with Christianity.

In fact, I will not worship a god with such a questionable moral. Hard words but please read what I mean with it:

 

God created us. He knew what we will do. Some christians even say that we don't even have a free will and god did not only know what we will do, he even forces us to do that, by the way, he created us.

 

And than god declares thinks as sin, knowing, that human will not be able to follow this rules. If he wanted us to follow his rules, he could have given us the ability to do so. But I am not finished.

 

Than he comes to earth as jesus and get's "sacrificed". I don't think, you can tell this a sacrifice. This word means, that you lessen yourself in some way. Give something up/away. Second, this "sacrifice" was necesary in no way.

 

If god wanted to save our souls, so we can go to heaven, than he should either design us better or change his definition of "sin". Why didn't he?

 

Because god wants us to worship him and enforces that in two ways:

1st: Lordship by fear: "Praise me or go to hell". This is a message I read a lot. I kinder words, but basicly that's it.

2nd: Lordship by compunction: "You owe me something because I sacriviced my son for you." sais god but he does not say that this was no real sacrifice nor was it necessary.

 

I think this behaviour is below my own moral code, so I will not praise him. If he punishes my with hell for this, it proofs my right.

 

Hey, the limbo is not that bad.

 

Mythos, I have to say this why have pre-marrital sex? It feels good, it makes you feel powerful? And something only moral if you think it is? So you can go up to someone and put a cap in there head and walk off and not expect to get punished?

And let me say this real quote from the Bible, Psalms(I think) God so loved the world that he gave his only son to die for our sins so that we may have eternal happiness(pretty close wording) I think thats a pretty big gift on his behalf for us and I hope you reconsider your decisions . And Jesus wasn't a sacrifice he was a person a human person who went and died openly for us, unnder his own decision.

 

Thank you.

 

Oh and if you emailed kevinbass4 and he couldn't give an answer for your question , you can email me at jumpintheline101@hotmail.com

[Mythos]

Originally posted by jedispy

So what you tell me, Mythos, that you only do something "moral" if you feel it to be so in and of itself, regardless of possible outcome? Well I know a certain Austrian man named Adolf Hitler did that once. Hey...how'd that turn out by the way?

Uh, reading Kant in your native language is hart, in a foreign it is ... impossible. However to answer to you:

Not absolutly but almost. Regardless of possible outcome I would never do something that feels morally wrong. And about the Nazi-comparison: I don't think anyone there acted because of conscience then.

 

But HOW do you know that? What if Kant was wrong?

Well, that is the part, where it becomes a kind of religion. How do you know, the bible is more holy then "The lord of the rings"

 

Actually, your quote doesn't appear in the Bible at all. It's more like accept this free gift. But I understand your paraphrase and interpretation as such.

It was no quote, it was an interpretation. And it was not taken from the bible, it was an image I got from thinks like http://www.chick.com

 

 

Hm, I think my post above creates a wrong image, so I want to add one think: I think the christian church (as well as the other) does a lot of good thinks. It has my greatest respect, I just can't believe in it.

 

The Hidden One: You don't want me to answer this here? Ok, you get mail.

[ET Warrior]

Originally posted by The Hidden One

And let me say this real quote from the Bible, Psalms(I think) God so loved the world that he gave his only son to die for our sins so that we may have eternal happiness(pretty close wording) [/email]

 

It's from John. Chapter 3 verse 16.

 

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 

 

 

The only thing I don't understand is, his son was born and died, but he came up to heaven to spend eternity with him after three days of being dead.

 

So really, how big of a sacrifice is it to lose a child for three days so you can spend eternity with them?

[jedispy]

Mythos

How do you know, the bible is more holy then "The lord of the rings"

Well since Tolkein was a Christian, he himself would say that the Bible is holier than LOTR. You say you wouldn't do that stuff that the Nazis did, and I believe you. However, THEY did it, and they saw it as right. Hitler believed it was good (morally) to purify the German race. All I'm saying is that it is dangerous ground.

 

ET Warrior

So really, how big of a sacrifice is it to lose a child for three days so you can spend eternity with them?

A fair question. By sacrifice, they refer to the ancient Jewish system of sacrifice. For one's sins to be forgiven, there were several sacrifices that had to be done, and even then it had to be done each year. Jesus was the final sacrifice, one for all. The death was the sacrifice. The resurrection was triumph over death. So too can we join in victory over death.

 

What can be done to attain this? Can a person do enough good works? Is eating fish on Fridays going to grant it? (no offense intended to my Catholic friends. That's not my purpose in mentioning it.) Can a person who NEVER lies, murders, steals, rapes, etc..., automatically earn this salvation? Like I said before, it's not that easy. It takes a little something extra.

[ET Warrior]

Originally posted by jedispy

Well since Tolkein was a Christian, he himself would say that the Bible is holier than LOTR.

 

So the bible is holier than LotR because Tolkien says so?

 

 

I'm not here to start an argument, I have a little Christian in me myself, but you have to admit you have NO proof to support the truth of the bible over anything else, it's a pure matter of belief.

[swphreak]

I am 0% relgious. I've been dragged to church every sunday since I was a kid, but I just didn't like it. The stuff went in one ear, and out the other.

 

In fact, I dislike religion. People use it as an excuse for wars, crimes, debates, arguments, ect. I really dislike religion influencing government dicisions as well.

 

I don't consider myself agnostic or atheist or whatever nonsense you're going to classify me into. I just don't do it.

 

I enjoy my sundays sleeping in.

 

Poor ET

[Vikinor]

Originally posted by StarWarsPhreak

In fact, I dislike religion. People use it as an excuse for wars, crimes, debates, arguments, ect. I really dislike religion influencing government dicisions as well.

 

 

 

 

 

Hasn't religion already ben forced out of the government?

[El Sitherino]

Originally posted by VikingLarz

Hasn't religion already ben forced out of the government?

Allow me to quote.

 

"God is with us." George W. Bush.

[TK-8252]

Originally posted by InsaneSith

Allow me to quote.

 

"God is with us." George W. Bush.

 

Don't forget:

 

"One nation, under god..."

 

"In God We Trust"

 

 

I'm with Phreak on this. Religion does more harm than good. Just look at history: so many bloody wars were started over religious disputes. The middle east is a mess from religious fanatics bumping heads.

 

Plus, religion causes bigotry towards things like abortion, gays, even violent video games. Things that are not problems except through the eyes of religion. And the government gets influenced by it, which violates the first ammendment right of freedom of religion, as in separation of church and state. But government still gets influenced by religion and rights are violated.

 

0% religious.

[Vikinor]

Even though I am religious I slightly agree. To me it seems that religion is trying to rule everything. Every aspect of our lives. I can understand the 10 commandments and following their rules, but I think that religions(mainly Christianity) just needs to worry about having religious people following those. Abortion to me is wrong because you are killing unborn babies which have souls.

 

 

The thing with violent video games I disagree. Religion should leave games alone. I do not see anything in the 10 commandments that says I am not allowed to own Halo 2, Republic Commando, GTA, etc.

[TK-8252]

Originally posted by VikingLarz

Abortion to me is wrong because you are killing unborn babies which have souls.

 

1) They're not babies. They're zygotes.

2) They don't have "souls" since they are not conscious.

 

For further discussion I'd recommend the abortion thread in the Senate.

[jedispy]

So the bible is holier than LotR because Tolkien says so?

Well...yeah. Tolkien wrote Lord of the Rings, and his moral standard was held in the Bible. He himself would have admitted that. Don't get me wrong, I likes me some LOTR.

 

Anyway, that wasn't my point. It was more comedic than anything else. I'm not going to bother pointing out the vast archaelogical evidence that points to the validity of the Bible. No one here really wants to hear it. If you are interested, go to a library and check out "New Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Dr. Josh McDowell and "The Case for Faith" by Lee Strobel.

 

If you are not interested, then peace be with you.

 

1) They're not babies. They're zygotes.

2) They don't have "souls" since they are not conscious.

Just curious...when you are sleeping, do lose your soul temporarily? Also, a Zygote is a fertilized egg. Nobody aborts a zygote. Fetuses are aborted.

Interestingly enough, I find it fascinating how Scott Peterson was charged for double homocide for killing his wife and unborn child. Interesting...why was he convicted for aborting a souless fetus?

</sarcasm>

[-DK-Squee]

Quote by John Lennon

I believe in God, but not as one thing, not as an old man in the sky. I believe that what people call God is something in all of us. I believe that what Jesus and Mohammed and Buddha and all the rest said was right. It's just that the translations have gone wrong.

=]

[TK-8252]

Originally posted by jedispy

Just curious...when you are sleeping, do lose your soul temporarily?

 

No. That's not the kind of conscious I meant. Here:

 

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=conscious

Having an awareness of one's environment and one's own existence, sensations, and thoughts.

 

When I'm asleep I have all of these.

 

 

Originally posted by jedispy

Also, a Zygote is a fertilized egg. Nobody aborts a zygote. Fetuses are aborted.

 

Bah, it's late. I get them mixed up. Close enough.

 

Originally posted by jedispy

Interestingly enough, I find it fascinating how Scott Peterson was charged for double homocide for killing his wife and unborn child. Interesting...why was he convicted for aborting a souless fetus?

</sarcasm>

 

She was already in full term, I believe. After the 2-3 month stages, abortion should be too late.

[Kurgan]

Whoa, what started out as a survey thread of poster's belief systems and we're branching off into debates and bashing people's beliefs?

 

Careful guys or we may have to catapult this into the Senate Chambers debate forum, and then <fill in name of higher realm believed in> help you!

[swphreak]

Originally posted by TK-8252

Don't forget:

 

"One nation, under god..."

 

"In God We Trust"

 

Those actually don't bother me, people have always said that, ect. But like Sith Said. Bush plays the God Card in like every speech of his.*

 

 

 

*I'm exaggerating, but if he really does... then that's just sad

[jedispy]

I agree with Kurgan. I'm actually not interested in arguing my faith. I'm 27 years old. Christianity has been around long before me. It's survived just fine without me

 

Well like you said, abortion should be in another thread. This one is about religion. The bible never talks about abortion. The technology for partial birth abortions was not thought of until about 1800 years later (after the last writing). Contrary to what many people think, Christianity itself isn't exclusively for the following:

*anti gay

*anti abortion

*imperialism

*killing Muslims

*etc...

 

Now granted, many Christian individuals do stand for that. It is unfortunate. It's good to have moral values and to take a stand on moral issues. However there comes a point where one can go too far. I oppose abortion, but I would never threaten the life of another just because they go through one.

[Vikinor]

Nice card Phreak. Holy Grail is awesome.

 

As long as there are atheists they will attack religious beleifs. As long as there are religions they will try and set the morals of life for people to live by.

 

Oh and is everyone aware of the Pope's condition?

[swphreak]

Originally posted by VikingLarz

Nice card Phreak. Holy Grail is awesome.

 

I didn't make it, Sith did.

 

As long as there are atheists they will attack religious beleifs.

 

If you're calling me an atheist, I do not deny or disbelieve the existance of a god. Nor am I skeptical about the existance of a god. I just don't like religion.

[Vikinor]

Well allow me to rephrase it. The atheists that have problems with religions. Not ALL atheists in general.

[jedispy]

TK-8252

Having an awareness of one's environment and one's own existence, sensations, and thoughts.

I see. I don't mean to play word games (it's not my style) but I think a better word is sentience. <sp??> Your belief is that unborn humans are not sentient. I would say that you have a fair belief. I respectfully question the validity. I mean no offense, just looking for open-mindedness.

 

According to your definition, one is sentient if they

a. Possess an awareness of their own environment

b. Possess self awareness

c. Possess sensations and thoughts.

 

I agree that sentient beings to meet these criteria, however non-sentients also can possess them. My cat, for example, is well aware of his environment and surroundings. He knows that there are dangerous lifeforms outside (mainly lawnmowers and neighborhood children :-P ). He has a sense of self awareness. If he sees a reflection of himself in a mirror, he doesn't assume that it is another cat, yet he notices his own reflection. He also has a sense of danger. These are signs of self-awareness. My fat clearly can figure out primative logical matters (how to open the kitty treat jar, etc...)

 

With all that said, I would not say that my cat is sentient by any means.

 

At the same time, infants (we're talking born human beings now) are not aware of themselves, or the environment until they reach that point of cognitive development. After a while, they do possess such awareness. With all that said, I would say that they are sentient, and that they have souls. (while the debate of soul existence is still open, sentience is scientific.)

 

Again, I mean only respect in what I say.

[swphreak]

Originally posted by VikingLarz

Well allow me to rephrase it. The atheists that have problems with religions. Not ALL atheists in general.

 

But why are you still calling me an atheist? Because I dislike religion, I'm an atheist? Like I said, I do not deny or disbelieve in the existance of god. I just don't do it.

 

and spy, you might want to visit the link in Kurgan's post if you want to discuss that issue. She's dead, we can move on.

[Kurgan]

Originally posted by StarWarsPhreak

But why are you still calling me an atheist? Because I dislike religion, I'm an atheist? Like I said, I do not deny or disbelieve in the existance of god. I just don't do it.

 

Agnostic?

[swphreak]

Originally posted by Kurgan

Agnostic?

 

ag·nos·tic

1. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.

2. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

2. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.

 

I'm don't consider myself any of those.... I just don't do religion. Unless there's a classification for people who "dislike" or "think religion is stupid" I really don't think of myself as Atheist or Agnostic.