jedi morality question.

[dewayne26]

i got thinking bout what bastila said in one. that jedi do not kill their prisoners. but they wipe their memory. in my opinion that would be the same thing. anyone feel differently?

[Achilles]

Wow, this one's either going to blow up in everyone's faces or go nowhere fast.

 

Here's my 2 cents though:

 

Killing someone is ending a life. Erasing a memory "could" be ending a personality. If you successfully treat someone for MPD (multiple personality disorder) are you committing murder? If you say yes, then they are the same. If you say no, then they are not. Similar examples abound.

[AngryFan]

We do also have to take into acount the countless atrocities Reven commited before and during the war, especially at Malachor. What the council did was an act of desperation to defeat the Sith and stop their conquest.

[stingerhs]

i'd have to say yes. many people have stated time after time again that the body is merely a tool for the mind. for most people, the mind can be defined, but not limited to, a person's intellect, memories, and morality. each part mentioned will deturmine more or less how a person acts and reacts to certain situations.

 

delete or heavily modify those, and the person is forever changed. whenever you here about a truely life-changing experience that someone has had, it is related to a similar change to a person's thought processes.

 

when you entirely delete all three, as was the case in Revan, in effect, you are creating an entirely new person. the old one has almost literally 'died' while the new one now has life. no matter what the outcome, the Revan you 'become' through your gameplay is a very different Revan that existed before the Malak betrayal.

 

of course, almost all of this is purely philosophical thinking on my part, and it could easily be disputed (which i have no doubt will occur). just keep things civilized.

[dewayne26]

Originally posted by stingerhs

i'd have to say yes. many people have stated time after time again that the body is merely a tool for the mind. for most people, the mind can be defined, but not limited to, a person's intellect, memories, and morality. each part mentioned will deturmine more or less how a person acts and reacts to certain situations.

 

delete or heavily modify those, and the person is forever changed. whenever you here about a truely life-changing experience that someone has had, it is related to a similar change to a person's thought processes.

 

when you entirely delete all three, as was the case in Revan, in effect, you are creating an entirely new person. the old one has almost literally 'died' while the new one now has life. no matter what the outcome, the Revan you 'become' through your gameplay is a very different Revan that existed before the Malak betrayal.

 

of course, almost all of this is purely philosophical thinking on my part, and it could easily be disputed (which i have no doubt will occur). just keep things civilized.

 

i agree with you 100%. that all i ask is that you keep it ciil.

[Prime]

Since the canon version of the story is the lightside ending, isn't what they did more or less restoring who Revan originally was? I can't remember exactly, but didn't Malachor V have something to do with his corruption?

[stingerhs]

well, we know for sure that Malachor V's destruction resulted in the Exile's loss of the Force. but i do seem to remember that Revan used the battle of Malachor to 'eliminate' Jedi that weren't loyal to him. if you ask me, that doesn't exactly line up with what a lightside jedi would do.

 

there was another reason for Revan turning to the darkside, and we know that it was something to do with the Mandalorian Wars. otherwise, i don't think either game mentions why Revan turned to the darkside. my guess is that part is being held until Kotor III.

[Bob Lion54]

^^^^^^^^^^

 

In one of the cutscenes when you board the Hawk, Disciple talkes about Revans attempt to control the galaxy. He believes Revan was trying to gather forces for an impending attack, rather than just trying to gain power for the sake of power. Possibly the plot of K3?

 

My take on it is that Revan was a "good guy" in the beginning . In trying to prepare for the attack, Revan fell to the dark side.

 

I think Revan was going after stratigic targets that would be better for defense against this massive foe.

 

Edit: I forgot to reply to the original post

 

It all comes down to the argument of Genetics vs. Enviroment.

 

If you believe genetics are responsible for who we are, then the memory wipe is not as harsh as death. The person is still alive and is the same person. Although they would not remember anything. They would still act the same.

 

If you believe Enviroment is responsible for who we are, then removing someone memories is no different then killing them. In effect, they are a different person and who the were is dead.

 

I believe both define who we are. What amount each part plays in this, I do not know. Wiser people than I are still attempting to ascertain the answer to this most elusive puzzle.

 

Given the choice of permanent amnesia or death, I don't think I could decide.

 

(I can be quite pretentious, when it suites me)

[AngryFan]

Yeah...Kreia kept going on and on about how Reven became a Sith Lord to prevent a "greater evil". She did this after she was done shoving relativist BS down your throat.

 

I think the previous poster's theory sounds true. I can't really see how somebody could use the dark side for the sake of good. He must have been corrupted despite good intentions.

[DarthVandar205]

Revan seemed to have some strategy to his plans when he gathered his forces and went into battle, Malak on the other hand just seemed power hungry and had no strategy planned out at all besides just mindless destruction and complete conquest of the galaxy.

 

I think even though the jedi council reprogrammed Revan with a new loyal republic identity, I think that some of his original persona was still retained inside of him but it was rather fragmented and for the most part unknown to him until Malak and Bastila cleared things up for him and then I think he started to remember who he was and other things about himself. Also there must have been something left inside of him because the council needed him to be restored so that he could use his knowledge to backtrack his path he went on before to find out where the star forge was. He couldnt do that if he didnt retain any of his old memories.

 

The council just gave him a new identity so that hopefully he would not realize who he was before and end up going back down the path he did originally.

[SithLord Morgul]

Riddles, riddles, riddles. I think that when you erase someones mind, you kill them. Example, in episode IV Obi-Wan tells luke that Darth Vader killed his father but what he didn't tell him is that he is his father but changed identity by turning to the Darkside. Anakin was no more but Darth Vader even before

he got burned in the lava on mustafar and put on the life-support suit

 

Any way, you erase the mind, they arn't the same person, person before is dead, person now is born.

[Bastila]

Revan started to remeber things so he didnt lose his memory, also i think Kriea says in TSL, how reven tunred so many was she said anyone that walk that surface would be tunred, also why Revan tuned on the republic was because Revan knew of a bigger evil/threat and was prepearing the republic as Revan knew what was coming.

 

Anyway thats what i think.

[Existance-R]

If you are going to argue that Revan 'died' when he lost his memory, you have to assume that all amnesiacs have technically 'died' then. Of course, this is obviously not the case. I've done very little research on the subject, but as far as I know the average amnesiac still has the same personality as they did before they lost their memory, so we must come to the conclusion that while memory does shape personalities, it does not affect them if removed. I could be completely wrong about this; again, lack of research, but I am comfortable with it.

 

I do however, think that the Jedi Council crossed the line when they started to reprogram a new personality into Revan. If they hadn't ended a life by 'burying' what was left of Revan, they had most definitly done so by 'replacing' Revan with a construct of their own creation.

[Darth Aleera]

I support the idea that erasing someone mind is killing this person. Is not, as stated, a physical kill, but in fact deleting all things that she made, her memories and also the knowledge of her past identity, in this case any aspect of Revan’s personality, Revan was in fact killed. Has been only a matter of case that her identity was recovered, because Revan was not intended to recall her past. When Revan known who was before, was in fact an incident, something that was not intended to happen. Something that was not erased remained only because she could be useful to the Republic, if, for example, shouldn't be of any use, I do not doubt that the Jedi Council would have erased completely her memories to kill in a definitive way Darth Revan. My personal opinion about this is that the Jedis were only extremely relativist... their code didn't allow to kill someone, and they simply found a way to not kill the prisoner and kill her at the same time. Jedi Council were, in this case, able to fulfil the code and eliminate the enemy at the same time, a solution that seemed to me very hypocritical. I do not think this can be called "redemption", because Revan, I suppose, wasn't even asked if she regretted her actions that the Jedi considered crimes (however this is not explained in the game... you know only that Revan was captured and after she has been mind erased. I simply stated she was forced because I cannot imagine that most people would erase their identities voluntarily). Another statement is that the canonical Revan is male and light sided (this choice is probably motivated by the fact that most players are male and most player prefer their pc as light sided), and so, most of the game was designed for a light side story, and probably the alternative dark sided choice was subordinated to this one during the design of the story itself, and is probably supposed "as a fact" that Revan would like more to be mind erased than to be a Sith Lord.

[LukeKatarn]

Originally posted by SithLord Morgul

Riddles, riddles, riddles. I think that when you erase someones mind, you kill them. Example, in episode IV Obi-Wan tells luke that Darth Vader killed his father but what he didn't tell him is that he is his father but changed identity by turning to the Darkside. Anakin was no more but Darth Vader even before

he got burned in the lava on mustafar and put on the life-support suit

 

Any way, you erase the mind, they arn't the same person, person before is dead, person now is born.

Just so you know he doesn't get burned by the lave he combusts for some reason

Anyway, hard to see, the anwser is. It all kind of depends. I'd say haveing your mind wiped is worst. I mean dieing you still know what happened on earth, but getting your memory wiped, it's like being reborn with no memories exept your life is alot shorter and you're pretty big/old.