A detailed list of the Heros/Jedi from OPM for BF II!

[DarthMuffin]

Well they fought on the front lines in that battle, commanders and generals don't fight on the front line. And I don't remember one clone trooper on the ground either, they were in the gunships. It was just Jedi, and Padma, on the ground fighting.

 

Exactly! Is a general still a general if he doesn't have any troops to command?

 

I suppose however that some hosts WILL turn them off, and instant action is always there, so all hope is not lost.

 

All hope is not lost??!!?

 

Actually, that's exactly the point of view I'm fighting against. We shouldn't see playable Jedi as a flaw, but as an additional feature. Lets not forget that if one entirely scraps the jedi/hero concept, battlefront 2 only brings space battles and new skins for the republic. Maps? Everybody can do maps (and some user-created maps are indeed superior to the official ones). That's not much for a full game, isn't it?

 

I don't see how this rips battlefield off... Its in 3rd person for a start!

 

Bfront can be played on both modes

 

I personally don't consider Bfront as a rip-off. But many people do. Remember when bfront came out? How many topics have we had with a subject similar to "poor man's battlefield"?

 

Reviewers on various websites also compared Bfront to Bfield and used this to discredit Bfront. That obviously makes a very bad argumentation, but we can't deny the fact that people do compare these games, and that Bfront 1 didn't bring much to fight against the already-popular Bfield games.

 

The thing is, from a technical point of view, Bfront only appealed to SW fans. When you design a game, you want as many people as possible to enjoy it.

 

Bfront 2 brings space battles and Jedi. These two aspects are new to the genre (unless you count the Bfield SW mod; in that case, only the Jedi and heroes will make Bfront unique).

 

So what I'm saying is that having playable Jedi is a unique feature, and it should be considered as such.

[Rebel_Trooper]

Actually, that's exactly the point of view I'm fighting against. We shouldn't see playable Jedi as a flaw, but as an additional feature. Lets not forget that if one entirely scraps the jedi/hero concept, battlefront 2 only brings space battles and new skins for the republic. Maps? Everybody can do maps (and some user-created maps are indeed superior to the official ones). That's not much for a full game, isn't it?

...

So what I'm saying is that having playable Jedi is a unique feature, and it should be considered as such.

 

That is an intresting point of view. Although you could argue that SWBF2 is more of an expansion than a full game (same engine anybody?), plus you get the extra character class.

 

Ultimately, you are right, and I will keep my judgement on Jedi personal in the future until I have played them myself. Then I will decide if they fit. Not now.

[TK-8252]

In the Geo arena, they didn't have many troopers to command around did they?

 

A few thousand. I assume you mean the battlefield outside the arena.

 

One of the republic trooper is the clone commander. So why wouldn't a Jedi commander/general be playable?

 

Because you're not playing as the Jedi Order; you're playing as the Grand Army of the Republic. You know, the clone guys...

 

Well they fought on the front lines in that battle, commanders and generals don't fight on the front line.

 

I guess they do in Star Wars.

 

And I don't remember one clone trooper on the ground either, they were in the gunships. It was just Jedi, and Padma, on the ground fighting.

 

...I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

And they fought on the front lines with the troopers on Princess Amidala's planet. Naboo was it?

 

"I can only protect you; I cannot fight a war for you." - Qui-Gon Jinn

[DarthMuffin]

A few thousand. I assume you mean the battlefield outside the arena.

 

Of course not. I'm talking about the arena itself.

 

Because you're not playing as the Jedi Order; you're playing as the Grand Army of the Republic. You know, the clone guys...

 

 

The Jedi are part of the Grand Army. You said yourself they were the generals.

[Micahc]

If you hate Jedi so much; turn 'em off. Jeez people.

[TK-8252]

Of course not. I'm talking about the arena itself.

 

Uh, that's not where the battle took place...

 

 

The Jedi are part of the Grand Army. You said yourself they were the generals.

 

Wrong. They were not part of the Grand Army. They are the Jedi Order. Yes they shared command of the clone army, but ultimately it is the Supreme Chancellor who is commander-in-chief. The Grand Army does have its own rank system, with commanders and all. The Jedi just supplemented them since the clones aren't exactly the greatest thinkers.

[DarthMuffin]

Uh, that's not where the battle took place...

 

 

Not where the big battle took place, but a battle took place there nonetheless.

 

Wrong. They were not part of the Grand Army. They are the Jedi Order. Yes they shared command of the clone army, but ultimately it is the Supreme Chancellor who is commander-in-chief. The Grand Army does have its own rank system, with commanders and all. The Jedi just supplemented them since the clones aren't exactly the greatest thinkers.

 

Any official proof of this? I honestly don't know. Obi and Ani did have their own fleet (Open Circle).

 

And "general" is an army rank. You can't be a general if you don't belong to an army.

 

But let's say you're right...

Perhaps they're not "officially" part of the Grand Army. But they do still play a role as commanders of the said army. Even if they're just there to "supplement" they still play a major role, and by doing so, can be considered as members of the army.

 

And as far as I know, the Jedi are still part of the Republic. And they fight with the clones. They might not bear the "Grand Army" title, but they are part of Republic military.

[TK-8252]

Not where the big battle took place, but a battle took place there nonetheless.

 

Not really, it was just the confrontation that sparked the Battle of Geonosis.

 

Any official proof of this? I honestly don't know. Obi and Ani did have their own fleet (Open Circle).

 

Go to StarWars.com and view the Databank. The Jedi Order and the Galactic Republic are clearly separate organizations.

 

And as far as I know, the Jedi are still part of the Republic. And they fight with the clones. They might not bear the "Grand Army" title, but they are part of Republic military.

 

Not part of, but allied with. If you want to get political, it's sorta like how the U.S. Marines and the Iraqi security forces are working together. They're not part of the same organization, but they share command, with the Iraqis though ultimately loyal to the Iraqi government. It's like, say in BF2, would it make sense for, in a present-day Iraq map where the U.S. fights off insurgents, there to be Iraqi soldiers mixed in with the Marines?

[DarthMuffin]

Not really, it was just the confrontation that sparked the Battle of Geonosis.

 

It's a confrontation. Therefore, it's a battle. Yes, it did spark the huge geonosis battle. But it was a battle in it's own right.

 

Go to StarWars.com and view the Databank. The Jedi Order and the Galactic Republic are clearly separate organizations.

 

That doesn't really prove anything. They might be part of different organizations, but the Jedi are the "generals" of an army. That army happens to be the Grand Army of the Republic. Like I said, a general is a rank - you have to be part of the army to bear that rank.

 

Not part of, but allied with. If you want to get political, it's sorta like how the U.S. army and the Iraqi army are working together. They're not part of the same organization, but they share command, with the Iraqis though ultimately loyal to the Iraqi government.

 

The separatists are basically a bunch of allied factions, yet you play them as a single side in Bfront 2.

 

It's the same as with the republic.

[TK-8252]

It's a confrontation. Therefore, it's a battle. Yes, it did spark the huge geonosis battle. But it was a battle in it's own right.

 

What I'm talking about is the Battle of Geonosis.

 

That doesn't really prove anything. They might be part of different organizations, but the Jedi are the "generals" of an army. That army happens to be the Grand Army of the Republic. Like I said, a general is a rank - you have to be part of the army to bear that rank.

 

Not really. You just have to be in a position of command. I mean, George Bush isn't in the army, but he's commander-in-chief.

 

The separatists are basically a bunch of allied factions, yet you play them as a single side in Bfront 2.

 

Totally different situation. The Separatist factions all pledged their armies to the leaders of the Confederacy. The Jedi Council did NOT pledge the Jedi Order to the Grand Army.

[joesdomain]

I thought I saw a nice screenshot on Lucasarts Star Wars Battlefront II website showing Darth Maul walking around Mos Espa or Mos Eisley. I hope they have the original Battlefront's maps in it also.

[DarthMuffin]

What I'm talking about is the Battle of Geonosis.

 

??

Glad we're talking about the same thing.

 

Not really. You just have to be in a position of command. I mean, George Bush isn't in the army, but he's commander-in-chief.

 

If he is commander-in-chief, he is in the army. He just doesn't wear the uniform. There are plenty of "civils" who work for the army.

 

But let's leave Bush out of this. We don't want this to turn into a political debate.

 

Totally different situation. The Separatist factions all pledged their armies to the leaders of the Confederacy. The Jedi Council did NOT pledge the Jedi Order to the Grand Army.

 

Indeed, but the Jedi have pledged their help to the republic. The Grand Army and the Jedi Order are working together in the war. While the the BF1 side was "officially" referred to as "the republic clone army", things have changed since AotC. We're no longer talking about the clone army, we're talking about the republic itself.

 

I thought I saw a nice screenshot on Lucasarts Star Wars Battlefront II website showing Darth Maul walking around Mos Espa or Mos Eisley. I hope they have the original Battlefront's maps in it also.

 

Rumours say that all the BF1 maps will be in. I saw the Maul screen too, and Hoth is in one of the video.

 

And since most of the new maps are from Ep3, they need to keep some OT content in the game.

[master_skywalke]

If you hate Jedi so much; turn 'em off. Jeez people.

I totally agree with you, the people who only want to play as a grunt even don't have to turn them off, for example: You made 6 kills, and then you get the message: Do you want to play as Ki-Adi-Mundi?, and then you can chose Yes or No, just chose no, and don't complain about the fact that jedi are in the game, and in multiplayer, you can turn jedi off there too, so why are you people complaining?!

[Commander Obi-Wan]

exactly...jedi/heroes are there if you want to use it and for those who want to use jedi/heroes.

[TK-8252]

??

Glad we're talking about the same thing.

 

No, it seems you're talking about the fight between a number of Jedi and droids. That is not the Battle of Geonosis... it is the conflict that sparked the massive battle we know as the Battle of Geonosis. But I fail to see why you would be talking about it, because that's not even where the battle in the game takes place.

 

There are plenty of "civils" who work for the army.

 

Work FOR the army is right. The Jedi are not IN the army, they work FOR it.

 

Indeed, but the Jedi have pledged their help to the republic. The Grand Army and the Jedi Order are working together in the war. While the the BF1 side was "officially" referred to as "the republic clone army", things have changed since AotC. We're no longer talking about the clone army, we're talking about the republic itself.

 

Pledge their help to the Republic is one thing. The Separatist factions actually agreed to compile all their forces into one big Confederacy of Independent Systems. The Jedi never pledged such a thing.

 

 

Oh and, the argument that "if you don't like Jedi, turn them off" falls flat on its face. Unless you have your own server YOU DO NOT CHOOSE TO ALLOW OR DISALLOW JEDI. Even if you deny the chance to use the Jedi, someone else will surely take it. Unless there is a filter on the server browser for servers that allow Jedi and which don't, but I don't think the devs would be clever enough to think of that.

[DarthMuffin]

No, it seems you're talking about the fight between a number of Jedi and droids. That is not the Battle of Geonosis... it is the conflict that sparked the massive battle we know as the Battle of Geonosis. But I fail to see why you would be talking about it, because that's not even where the battle in the game takes place.

 

We're not talking about where battles take place. You do realize that there is a "conflict" between Jedi and droids in the arena. This conflick happens to be a battle. A small battle indeed, but a battle nonetheless.

 

Work FOR the army is right. The Jedi are not IN the army, they work FOR it.

 

 

 

Pledge their help to the Republic is one thing. The Separatist factions actually agreed to compile all their forces into one big Confederacy of Independent Systems. The Jedi never pledged such a thing.

 

 

From Star Wars Revenge of the Sith

Chapter I : Anakin and Obi-Wan

Bottom of p.18 in the hardcover edition

 

"This is Obi-Wan Kenobi:

[...]

Jedi Master. General in the Grand Army of the Republic. Member of the Jedi Council. "

 

That says it all.

[TK-8252]

We're not talking about where battles take place. You do realize that there is a "conflict" between Jedi and droids in the arena. This conflick happens to be a battle. A small battle indeed, but a battle nonetheless.

 

Not part of the Battle of Geonosis though.

 

 

From Star Wars Revenge of the Sith

Chapter I : Anakin and Obi-Wan

Bottom of p.18 in the hardcover edition

 

"This is Obi-Wan Kenobi:

[...]

Jedi Master. General in the Grand Army of the Republic. Member of the Jedi Council. "

 

That says it all.

 

Here's what the official site has to say:

 

"The Clone Wars were a trying time for the Jedi. They transformed from an order of peacekeepers to military commanders, serving as battlefield generals for the Republic's new clone army."

 

So no, my definition they are NOT actually IN the Grand Army.

[master_skywalke]

 

"The Clone Wars were a trying time for the Jedi. They transformed from an order of peacekeepers to military commanders, serving as battlefield generals for the Republic's new clone army."

You sayed it yourself: servings as generals FOR the Republic's new clone army, so, the actually mean they are part of the army.

[Leviathan]

I agree with you, TK'... Of General, Kenobi only had the titer... He didn't have the abilities of an Army's officer...

[boinga1]

Both the jedi and the clones served the Republic. Ultimately, however, the Jedi were loyal to the Force itself, and not answerable to the Supreme Chancellor. Furthermore, if the Jedi were formally in the army, it seems to me that it would have been difficult to order clone troopers to execute someone who was technically in the army with them. Officially, Order 66 identified the Jedi as traitors, and frankly, identifying a hundreds of generals as traitors would be problematic in any real-life army. On the other hand, identifying hundreds of military advisors, outside the military, would possibly be less problematic. Just my two cents.

[DarthMuffin]

"The Clone Wars were a trying time for the Jedi. They transformed from an order of peacekeepers to military commanders, serving as battlefield generals for the Republic's new clone army."

 

So no, my definition they are NOT actually IN the Grand Army.

 

I'm sorry, but I can't follow you here. The website says that they serve the army, as battlefield generals and you still think they're not in the army???

 

You sayed it yourself: servings as generals FOR the Republic's new clone army, so, the actually mean they are part of the army.

 

Exactly.

 

The official novel says they're in the army. The official website says they are the generals of the army.

 

Not part of the Battle of Geonosis though.

 

Very well. Lets call it the Battle of the Geonosis Arena.

 

I agree with you, TK'... Of General, Kenobi only had the titer... He didn't have the abilities of an Army's officer...

 

So everyone calls him general, he fights in the front lines with clones and has a full battalion under his command, but no, he's not a general. [/sarcasm]

 

Officially, Order 66 identified the Jedi as traitors, and frankly, identifying a hundreds of generals as traitors would be problematic in any real-life army. On the other hand, identifying hundreds of military advisors, outside the military, would possibly be less problematic.

 

This is not real life. This is Star Wars. And it goes perfectly well with palpatine's plot to "purify" the galaxie of all the Jedi. He used them as battlefield generals (to use what TK got from an official source) so that many of them would die. He killed the rest of them.

[TK-8252]

I fail to see why just because someone is serving as a general it makes them automatically an official member of the army. That's not how it works. I mean, that would be like saying that the Wookiees are also part of the Grand Army because they served the Republic in the Clone Wars. After all, they were barking out orders to the clones on the beach, so they clearly had command over them. And if they are in a position like that they must be in the army... right? Wrong.

 

And like boinga said, you can't just completely remove the chain of command of an army and then have everything proceed on as normal as it did. This is because the Jedi are just advisors, and when it comes down to it, who's really in charge is Palpatine and the Clone Commanders.

 

Also, go to the official site and check out the entries for the Jedi. It says their affiliation is the Jedi Order, not the Galactic Republic, which is what it says for the Clone Troopers.

 

So I return to my original point, which is that having Jedi playable in the Grand Army is incorrect.

[mr.piercy]

yes the Jedi Order is a separate group from the Republic itself. They work independently from each other - the Jedi don't become involved in politics and the Republic only uses Jedi as diplomats and peacemakers.

 

on the topic of not having Jedi playable, i disagree. Wasting droids with a rifle is cool, but i feel that i just carry the team by taking out hundreds of rebels and taking cp's. Being rewarded by being able to step into the boots of a hero like Darth or Luke is great. - a good incentive.

 

but i can see where u are coming from with the idea that they should be AI controlled.

[TK-8252]

There's better ways or rewarding players than having them compete with their own team to get the Jedi. Really, that's not encouraging teamwork at all - it's encouraging players to whore the tanks to get more kills than everyone else, or even playing as crappy as possible (the server owner can even set it so the worst player gets the Jedi, like a handicap).

 

Look at BF2 for example: you can advance through ranks, unlock weapons, earn awards and medals, etc. and gain command over lower-ranking players through combat and teamwork. And this stuff is permanent; it doesn't just go away when the life bar is drained.

 

And personally, I think that in a military game, you should be rewarded like you would in the military. I mean, when was the last time a Clone Trooper was promoted by making him a Jedi?

[MachineCult]

When was the last time you saw a normal clone soldier just hopping into a Gunship or a tank? In reality only pilots would be able to use them. The clone trooper doesn't become a Jedi, the Jedi just enters the battlefield.

I think the heroes are really more a reward for singleplayer not multiplayer, from what you said Jedi seem to go better in the singleplayer mode.