The Pledge "Unconstitutional"

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Politicians use anything that happens to be available as a political tool.

Correction: American politicians use whatever they can get their hands on as a political tool. I've never heard it used by Norwegian, Canadian, Swedish, English, or German politicians.

 

Even Stalin used patriotism as a political tool

Funny you'd bring him up. It doesn't exactly further your cause to remind us that organized patriotism is a dictators' tool.

 

(...) and he was (supposedly) a communist.

Patriotism as a propaganda tool was very common in the Soviet Union. To say that "even a communist leader used it" is like saying "even vegetarians eat fruit and vegetables".

 

And it's not a democracy.

You know what I meant, budd. Cut the nitpicking.

[CapNColostomy]

Correction: American politicians use whatever they can get their hands on as a political tool. I've never heard it used by Norwegian, Canadian, Swedish, English, or German politicians.

 

Yeah, ONLY America would do something like that. Other countries would never use anything for political means. I think you said it right when you said you've never heard of it. Maybe they're just sneaky? Nah, can't be. Only dirty Americans do it. I can't believe anyone could be so naive.

[El Sitherino]

Correction: American politicians use whatever they can get their hands on as a political tool. I've never heard it used by Norwegian, Canadian, Swedish, English, or German politicians.

You'd be wrong then. EVERY politician uses anything to further their careers and agenda. To say otherwise is utterly naive and highly retarded.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Indeed. Politicians from every country everywhere uses anything they can.

Even here in Canada.

 

However, I'd like to mention that America has the highest amount of personnal attacks against a candidate that I've ever seen. Like back in November 2004. There was plenty of ads to discredit Kerry or Bush by attacking their personnal pasts.

It also happens here (Canada), but never to such a degree.

[swphreak]

To people who say the Pledge is voluntary, I remember having a teacher that made us. And if it's voluntary, why does the school stop everything it is doing, and play it over the intercom?

 

As for the poll, you need a "Don't care" option.

[TK-8252]

As for the poll, you need a "Don't care" option.

 

I'll remember that next time.

[lukeskywalker1]

It's been there for 50 years. No one's yet succeeded in exploiting it.

 

Forget succeeding, no one has tried! Or at least, not used that as an excuse, and that was my whole point (thanks man!)

 

To people who say the Pledge is voluntary, I remember having a teacher that made us. And if it's voluntary, why does the school stop everything it is doing, and play it over the intercom?

 

School is a dictatorship reguardless, they make there own rulez. And your trapped... until level 12.

 

I'm writing this from the county jail.

 

Yeah well... your not coming out till you pledge your allegance!

 

Actually, I've really never thought about "pledging my allegience" or anything...

 

At some point she'll come home from her indoctrination process in school, after standing up and reciting the "pledge" and ask "who's god?" Mind you, I'm ready for that question, but it doesn't change the fact that elementary school children don't have the first clue what their legal rights are with regard to the establishment of religion. The only thing they know is that the single highest authority in the room said stand up and repeat after me.

 

No one told me anything... as far as I can remember.. yet ... I knew? Crap, IDK.

 

But anyways- Its bad for athiest kids to come home and say "Dad, whats god?" but its ok for everyone else to come home say "what the heck is a neanderthal?"

[CapNColostomy]

To people who say the Pledge is voluntary, I remember having a teacher that made us.

O rly? Did this teacher have a gun pointed at you? Did he or she have your genitals in the paper cutter? Did she threaten to fail you? No? Then you weren't made to do anything. You were told to do it and you did. I was told to do it, and didn't.

 

And if it's voluntary, why does the school stop everything it is doing, and play it over the intercom?.

 

Why do they stop school for pep rallys? Last time I checked you aren't required to cheer, or play football. It's voluntary. Why do they stop school for lunch? Eating's voluntary. Maybe they assume some of the students want to do these things? Just a guess.

[TK-8252]

Did he or she have your genitals in the paper cutter?

 

That... that is... that's just... oh boy.

[SkinWalker]

Pep rallies, football and lunch don't establish religions.

[Tinny]

That... that is... that's just... oh boy.

 

Who else wants to join the boy's choir? *steps back out of this thread*

[Tyrion]

...

 

CapN, may I ask why you you are holding those garden shears?

 

 

 

 

 

 

oh...

[El Sitherino]

Forget succeeding, no one has tried! Or at least, not used that as an excuse, and that was my whole point (thanks man!)

Actually people have tried, especially in Texas. Thing was it never made it past suggestion level.

 

O rly? Did this teacher have a gun pointed at you? Did he or she have your genitals in the paper cutter? Did she threaten to fail you? No? Then you weren't made to do anything. You were told to do it and you did. I was told to do it, and didn't.

Well technically I was failed for not saying it, but being a martyr sounded kinda cool to me when I was 15.

 

PS: Added a "Don't Care" option.

[Kurgan]

Pep rallies, football and lunch don't establish religions.

 

I beg to differ, football IS a religion for many many people. This is indoctrination, plain and simple!

[El Sitherino]

I beg to differ, football IS a religion for many many people. This is indoctrination, plain and simple!

... Heh, cheese-head denomination.

[CapNColostomy]

Pep rallies, football and lunch don't establish religions.

 

And aren't you a keen observer of detail? I never said they did. I said they halt school, and are voluntary. Just like the pledge. But I'm sure you probably could've picked that up in my post having read it the first time.

 

Well technically I was failed for not saying it, but being a martyr sounded kinda cool to me when I was 15.

 

You know, I actually figured when I made a broad, sweeping statement like I did, that someone would come back and say "it happened to me". But you do realize that there was no reason you had to accept that, right? Without ever bringing a lawyer into it, or taking it before a court, I know of no board of education that would sit for something like that, for the simple matter that they wouldn't want their asses sued off.

 

PS, wouldn't "NO" be the same as "I don't care"? If you didn't care, that would be the same as saying you don't mind if it's there or not. It's there. You don't care. If you cared wouldn't you most likely vote yes? I don't care. Guess which way I voted. Kinda dumb.

[El Sitherino]

You know, I actually figured when I made a broad, sweeping statement like I did, that someone would come back and say "it happened to me". But you do realize that there was no reason you had to accept that, right?

 

Well he was fired after multiple complaints. So... yeah.

 

PS, wouldn't "NO" be the same as "I don't care"? If you didn't care, that would be the same as saying you don't mind if it's there or not. It's there. You don't care. If you cared wouldn't you most likely vote yes? I don't care. Guess which way I voted. Kinda dumb.

I have no opinion either way, so it's just easier for me to play the apathy card.

[SkinWalker]

And aren't you a keen observer of detail? I never said they did. I said they halt school, and are voluntary. Just like the pledge. But I'm sure you probably could've picked that up in my post having read it the first time.

 

"Halting school" isn't unconstitutional. We're not talking about removing "under god" from the Pledge because it interrupts the morning announcements, we're talking about it as an example of government "establishment of religion," which is contrary to the Constitution.

[ShadowTemplar]

But anyways- Its bad for athiest kids to come home and say "Dad, whats god?" but its ok for everyone else to come home say "what the heck is a neanderthal?"

 

Yes? Non sequitour? BTW, most atheist kids would probably come home asking about neanthertals anyway, if your public schools aren't alot less crappy than European ones.

 

Oh, and Colo, please cut down on the pejoratives.

[lukeskywalker1]

This is stupid. When I wasn't a Christian, I didn't care, and when I was a christian, before all this mess started, I didn't think about, and when it did start I was just like... well.. whatever...

 

And everyone I know who has a problem with the pledge, is just trying to be difficult. They just don't like it. And everyone who wants "Under God" removed, is athiest anyways. Most high school students don't care, and to be honest, I'll be glad when this age of people who complain about everything, from statues, to the pledge, to video game violence are all out of office.

 

So yeah, this is just as absurde as Video Games training me to be a killer with 100% accuracy... In fact, thats a more serious situation than this.

[edlib]

But anyways- Its bad for athiest kids to come home and say "Dad, whats god?" but its ok for everyone else to come home say "what the heck is a neanderthal?"

Well, sure... except that's exactly the kind of thing a good school should be teaching them.

 

It shouldn't be up to the public school system of this country to inform kids on spiritual matters... THAT'S what home and church and Sunday school and catechism class are for.

But they should be taught about Neanderthals. What parent is gonna sit their kids down someday and talk to them about the Neanderthals? Well... my dad, perhaps... but I can't really think of all that many others. And forget about hearing about them in church. So where else are kids going to get informed of that important factual information? (To the worlds of science and biology, anyway...)

[Samuel Dravis]

I don't think anyone's under the impression that neanderthals never existed... the only problem some people would have with them is that they are pointed to as a "in-between" species, directly related to humans (though we supposedly didn't descend from them, I think people said we more like branched off). That's besides the point about neanderthals however; luke was using them simply as an illustration.

[lukeskywalker1]

My point was, why is it bad for athiest kids to come home with questions about God, because there parents don't believe in it, but its perfectly fine for kids of any other faith to return home and have to ask their parents why the teacher's "teaching" doesn't match up what they have been taught at home.

 

Well, sure... except that's exactly the kind of thing a good school should be teaching them.

 

Lets be honest, the only time I have needed to know anything about evolution is when I have been engaged in debates in the Senate. I think in the early years of school they should be taught the bare minimum of this stuff, then it should be electives in high school.

 

Even my Advanced Biology teacher said it was a waste of time unless your planning to pursue some sort of scientific career... in my case, computer science, which, obviously, I don't even need to know what the word "evolution" means to get a job doing that.

 

Of course, this is all opinion... my opinion.

[ShadowTemplar]

It's bad for non-religious children to come home and ask their parents about religious matters they heard about in school because schools aren't supposed to teach religion (except in comparative religion). But it's no problem to teach creationist children that their beliefs are bovine manure, because they are. From every concievable (legitimate) government point of view.

 

And if the parents don't tell their children about neanthertals, then it is doubly important that the school does.

 

@Skywalker: Your lack of education in matters biological does not come as a surprise to some of us... To put it diplomatically.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Lets be honest, the only time I have needed to know anything about evolution is when I have been engaged in debates in the Senate. I think in the early years of school they should be taught the bare minimum of this stuff, then it should be electives in high school.

So because you won't need to know about it, it shouldn't be taught?

 

I don't need to know about World War II. I don't need to know the history of Norway, even though it's my homeland. The Vikings? Bah, maybe if I'm a tourist guide when I grow up I may find a use for it, but it's hardly useful knowledge.

 

And so I can continue for an eternity. Don't teach children about how electricity was invented, about how a larva turns into a butterfly, how trees consume Co2 and turn it into O2, and so on and so forth. Unless I want to become a biologist or a mechanic, I don't need to know how it comes that there's "always" air to breathe, or how the electricity that powers my lamps and computer works.

 

Education is about learning as much as possible. Plain and simple. Unless he has hundreds of professions, a student will only use a fraction of what he learns in school when "real life" comes around.

 

My point was, why is it bad for athiest kids to come home with questions about God

Admittedly, it isn't.

 

It shouldn't be up to the public school system of this country to inform kids on spiritual matters.

I beg to differ. As long as the teaching is objective, not a matter of "this week we're learning about how God created us" or the like. I say put religious teaching (of all religions, not just Catholic Christianity) in World History and teach it in an informative way rather than a persuasive one.

 

Most high school students don't care, and to be honest, I'll be glad when this age of people who complain about everything, from statues, to the pledge, to video game violence are all out of office.

I thought a cornerstone of democracy was variety of opinion?

 

And I bet that if it was not the ten commandments in front of the courthouses, but the way of the Buddha or quotes from the Glorious Qu'ran, most Christians would care.

 

And don't get me started on my famous three thousand studies on video game violence:p.