the Great Staff/Single Saber Debate (split from the JA+ thread)

[razorace]

Zombie Thread!

[Lathain Valtiel]

It has been pretty much proven now that staff and dual are broken... I mean, can you really argue with what me and razor put forth? Not really.

 

Also, the 'best single duelers' have the tendency to cheat with yaw. Which really disqualifies them.

[mysteryman]

oh, so you're one of those "ZOMG POKE NUB!"?

Someone make a thread like that.

And no, even the best 'non wiggler' is le better than staffers.

[razorace]

This is a pretty poor argument to be made. Deferences in skill level can overcome any unbalanced game aspect.

 

Simply put, staffs and duals have a hardcoded advantage in the code. Any farther argument is pretty useless.

[StaffSaberist]

Oh my God, I leave for a day and a half and see this thread? Come on, it was meant to die. Let's let it, already. I concede that the staves and duels have more raw power than single (though I still say the single gets better range) and I also say this thread needs to die.

[thehomicidalegg]

another thing, jedi academy has been pretty much abandoned by raven as soon as it was released. there are uncountable amount of "exploits". yaw, poke, wiggle, multitude of delays, extends, gbfs, jump axes, etc etc, theres hardly any point to whinge about them at this point in time. yes an axe wiggle will do 200, but so will a front-on gbf. all the top players use at least 1 exploit at some point and in the end, the most skilled players would still do better. random crazy beefed up m_yaw wiggling does not = win, you still have to hit them first. as a side note, most staffers that plays gets hammered by singles, but its not as simple as saying no poke etc for red would change that around, you also have to stop the staff exploits to make it fairer ... in the end the hypothetical situation would be completely ludicrous and unrealistic.

 

 

 

another thing. the comparative sample size for players changes matters greatly. there are far more single users than staffs, and there are even less dualies. there are also a much larger number of above average skilled single users than staff users of compartive skill. so in most cases as mentioned before, the single users will ccrush staffs, but the best staffers can hold their own against top singles in duals and ffas. that works for dualies too... but i dont think there are more than a few good dualies players playing... and most of these are proficient in all 3 styles ..

 

anyways enough of my ramblings

 

 

edit: btw this is all based on empirical evidence, i didnt actually study the foundational sabering system or anything llike that because that would be pointless - noone actually plays that way.

[StaffSaberist]

OK, good points. It makes a good case for them being fairly balanced, anyways, not including stupid exploits. I don't take those into account.

[Lathain Valtiel]

Let me put it this way.

 

You see Saber Offense and Defense Lv. 3?

 

Staff and Dual get a faux 'LEVEL 4' over single from their hardcoded bonuses. This is not subject to argument: they are not balanced, single users just have this nasty tendency to be more highly skilled to make up for the power deficit. Either that or they use exploits. Axe the exploits and you're still stuck with staff and dual's hardcoded advantages.

 

What's GBF? Go Back Frontal?

 

And honestly... That's some weird empirical evidence. I see staves as first place in frequency, with dual and single BARELY tying for second...

[DISTURBED 1]

You know, I am going to be articulate in my response to this argument: SHUT THE F&$K UP!!!! This game is meant to be enjoyed, not argued over. Oh, and LV, the topic of this thread is JUST about the technical skill. Now, if its not, I at least, have the honor and common sense to admit that I'm wrong. I PROBABLY AM!!

 

Oh, and by the way, since I don't post that often, I admit that I don't know how to make the quote thingy pop-up.

 

"And what's this about tables? I've never said anything about tables, I only mentioned observation data, which I actually have stored in my head from hours spent playing freaks. My only assertion regarding the data in and of itself is that it is very readily observable and confirmable at higher levels of NF saber play. I mean, do you really need a table to prove that staff and dual have better block, better guard penetration, and better damage/time due to them? Most of what I've stated becomes pretty obvious after awhile." LV

 

Okay, by even mentioning that you stored the 'data' in your head, that PROVES right there that you SAW these tables somewhere, which therefore means that these tables that you say you didn't talk about DO EXIST. Now, if you're going to keep this stupid argument going in your own VERY ARROGANT, EGOTISTICAL, SELFISH, AND ANNOYING way, Im sorry for your relatives and friends.

 

Now, Im probably arrogant and snobby, or just like Im being hypocritical about arguing in an egotistical way, but well then f&$* it. I am glad the moderators, the administrators, and razorace, someone of TRUE skill, finally stepped in and tried to peacefully end this flame war.

 

Okay, one thing about the saberstaff backflip, have you noticed that the saber attack part tends to occur AFTER you are already above the opponents head? That right there disqualifies your argument about the backflip.

 

Okay, Im going to admit right now that I use the ForceMod III. So that might have messed up stuff.

 

Oh, and I applaude StaffSaberist for saying that he's sorry in an attempt to end this argument.

 

You know, when you challenge someone objective to go up against you, then act in this egotistical, arrogant, and snobbish manner, that gives anyone good reason to be un-objective to you. And like we said, OUR F&$%ING VIEW'S ARE JUST BASED ON OUR PREFERENCE. So we are not FOOLS like you say.

 

Oh, one other thing that makes single saber strong... have you noticed that Strong style pretty much kills anyone who isn't cheating or using Force Speed to block really fast, because when it comes back up from an attack, it slices into you and usually kills you?!?! Now, that might just be in ForceMod III, but oh well its a valid point anyways. And since staff and dual sabers are usually really fast, its almost impossible to guard against this.

 

Oh, and your experience is inadmissable. After all, most of us have a lot of experience, and are not n00bs. Ive played plenty of games on servers where im using a staff, and i actually have the most experience, and all the others are still learnng how to use a freakin mouse. And yet they wiped the floor with because EACH AND EVERY one of them used single sabers and got really freakin lucky. Like I said, your experience is inadmissable because it gives you a biased opinion, and this is about technical skill, not battles and all that other crap.

 

Now, I am a staff user, myself, because ITS MY F@IN PREFERENCE YOU EGOTISTICAL, STUCK-UP, GOOD FOR NOTHING, ARROGANT, GODD$%& MOTHER-F&@%ING JACKA$$!!!!! SO IM NOT AN IDIOT, LIKE YOU CALLED THE OTHER TWO, DEMONMSTRATING THAT YOU ARE UNFAIR IN YOUR DISCUSSIONS!!!!!!! Im also a staff user only sometimes, because I switch between all three styles so I can master them all, and you know what, it is not unbalanced. I looked at all my scores in games where I was using dual, staff or single, and for your info, they were perfectly proportional, the dual and staff and single being almost equal except that when i used my staff and dual styles, i lost a lot more. And godd%$n it, since you say that have spent a year of studying the rulebook, guess what, Ive spent some time studying the attack and rulebook of every STARWARS game in the jedi knight series, but only marginally, because unlike you,

*** * * *** * * *** *** * *** *** *** !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

* *** *** * * *** *** * * ** *** !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*** * * * * * *** * * *** *** * *** !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

But you know, since you've proved yourself a dumbass, Im going to assume you can't read ant tell you that it says: I HAVE A LIFE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Obviously you don't if you spend that much time studying this stupid stuff!!!

 

And I know this is late, but I just read this post. TOO BAD, YOU BIG BAST#$D!!!!!!!!

[StaffSaberist]

*Is stunned, like being hit with a large rock*

 

*blinks*

 

I guess I can only say three things:

 

1. ForceMod III changes a lot, but it doesn't change the flip anims. This is based on the changes to the Force Powers.

 

2. To make quotes, use the [ quote ] tag minus the spaces between the "quote" and the [].

 

3. Although I appreciate your agreement with me, personally attacking Lathain here won't prove anything. I say this from my own experience. Though I admit that debate with him is a little... frustrating... I learned not to attack him.

 

Take it from the viewpoint of verbal arguing. If passersby see you getting red in the face and screaming at someone, it makes that someone much more credible, because he looks like a sensible person who's stuck with the unfortunate task of dealing with a red-faced screamer.

 

I respect your viewpoints; you do have excellent points (I never could get the backflip+attack to do anything unless meeting someone in mid-air behind me counts) but please keep the attacks to a bare minimum. Thanks.

[acdcfanbill]

disturbed, relax man, its just a game on the internet

[Lathain Valtiel]

*Cracks knuckles*

 

1: Guess what Disturbed? It turned out that, surprise, my observable data turned out to be COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY GENERALIZABLE TO THE ENTIRE BASE GAME BY ALL STANDARDS. That's beacuse almost all that I said was true, regardless of delivery. And honestly, I never said they were in table format, only that it was observational data, i.e., just plain observations. There's a difference between data and creating a visualization to better express that data. You store memories and data in your head, so yes, the observational data was in my head. You get no points.

 

2: I already stated that I made a mistake and was referring to sideflip as backflip for awhile. I also mentioned that both are ludicrously powerful defenses regardless. Spun sideflip is just ludicrously powerful offensively on top of defense, even on the supposed end-lag.

 

3:The problem is that your 'views' are irrelevant in the face of my excellently articulated observations and the facts that later accompanied them, proving the reality behind the assertions coupled with said observations.

 

4: Yes, I would presume that is in ForceMod III. Which is effectively irrelevant to the debate at large.

 

5: it has been demonstrated repeatedly that I have great technical skill, as demonstrated by my painstakingly clear notes on various saber attacks. Furthermore, it has already been proven that staff and dual have a hardcoded advantage. Meaning that my 'opinions' on duall/staff superiority were, surprise, actually facts. Which completely destroys your point here and in your post in general.

 

I pray you are done humiliating yourself.

[StaffSaberist]

1: Guess what Disturbed? It turned out that, surprise, my observable data turned out to be COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY GENERALIZABLE TO THE ENTIRE BASE GAME BY ALL STANDARDS.

 

OK, no offense, but that's heresy unless you can provide a source of some kind. I know what your personal experience is, but claiming your arguments are accurate by your testimony alone won't stand up in court. It doesn't hold water.

 

2: I already stated that I made a mistake and was referring to sideflip as backflip for awhile. I also mentioned that both are ludicrously powerful defenses regardless. Spun sideflip is just ludicrously powerful offensively on top of defense, even on the supposed end-lag.

 

It would take a complete moron who'd run right into the line of movement to get whacked with that. I can't even hit SP AI that well with that move because they just jump. If only MP gamers were that smart... it seems more useful for escape than anything.

 

it has been demonstrated repeatedly that I have great technical skill, as demonstrated by my painstakingly clear notes on various saber attacks.

 

Again, though, you have no way to back it up. Mostly what you've cited so far is the standard measured attack of most single-saberists versus the n00b tactics practiced by far too many stavers to count. If a staver fought as well-cadenced as the single-blade (and it is possible) then the game would be much more even. Not to mention the fact that it's been brought up time and again that while the staff has excellent defense capability (even the concept provides defense bonuses) it is rather poor on the attack, having little range. The staff is more than a little clumsy, which might shed light on how you can so easily defeat them.

 

and the facts that later accompanied them, proving the reality behind the assertions coupled with said observations.

 

I looked through the *entire* thread again, and the only link you've posted is at the beginning - a self-serving portrait of what happens to people who don't know how to properly argue. But without any way of backing it up, your entire argument from your first post is inadmissable heresy.

[Lathain Valtiel]

1: *Cough* Did you not see what Razorace posted? Staff and dual have a direct advantage in code. It is unquestionable. We had lengthy discussions about this.

 

2: You don't get it. It can be chained out of almost ANYTHING. While it more often misses than not, in the event it DOES hit you can have tons of HP erased... and due to its ability to be chained out of almost anything staff has and its ability to be spun for greater power and defense, you can screw over a person trying to counter almost any mistake you make, and since they're countering, they risk getting decked in the teeth.

 

So what do we have here... An anti-counter ON TOP of all of the bonuses staff already has, namely the inherent defense and offense bonuses? Yeah. I don't think I need to say anything else. All this, and almost no end-lag that can't be protected by a spin (and is reasonably jumped out of anyway)! No other style has anything this blatantly broken with or without cheating.

 

3: What did Razor say? That's right... STAFF GETS AN INHERENT BONUS TO OFFENSIVE POWER. Not arguable.

 

Let's also dissect the range issue... By mentioning the fact that its strikes have almost no lagtime. Now, presume for a moment we have single... What then does range matter? Yellow and blue get swatted away by defense more often than not. And what's this? Red, with the greatest range of all, can get staff-countered thanks to two things: Attack lag, and overall bad speed in general. Which defeats any advantage it has unless you yawcheat.

 

We've had this argument before. It doesn't work when attempting to attack with red slows you down enough for a staff user out of range to get an almost free counter attempt with no lag and almost no windup (forward diagonals).

 

4: Psst. Razorace. What he says is a fact. Which happen to concur with basically everything I've ever said with staff and dual.

[StaffSaberist]

1: *Cough* Did you not see what Razorace posted? Staff and dual have a direct advantage in code. It is unquestionable. We had lengthy discussions about this.

 

SHOW THE G*****N CODE. IF YOU CAN'T, YOU CAN'T REFER TO IT. ANYONE WITH KNOWLEDGE OF PROGRAMMING KNOWS THAT.

 

Am I speaking to a chat bot here???

 

2: You don't get it. It can be chained out of almost ANYTHING. While it more often misses than not, in the event it DOES hit you can have tons of HP erased

 

 

The blade cuts through rock! A direct hit from one of those things should hurt. A single blade is equally capable of doing severe damage. Even in SP a single lucky hit from a Red Single Reborn can take off all your armor and some health.

 

and due to its ability to be chained out of almost anything staff has and its ability to be spun for greater power and defense, you can screw over a person trying to counter almost any mistake you make, and since they're countering, they risk getting decked in the teeth.

 

You try going from a right to a back-right in a Staff. Not only does it rarely hit the intended target, there is definite lag that a Blue stancer could do some damage on (roll-stab would probably kill).

 

So what do we have here... An anti-counter ON TOP of all of the bonuses staff already has, namely the inherent defense and offense bonuses? Yeah. I don't think I need to say anything else. All this, and almost no end-lag that can't be protected by a spin (and is reasonably jumped out of anyway)! No other style has anything this blatantly broken with or without cheating.

 

So... you dominate the staff (you said so on Page 1 or so) and yet it's impossible to counter? YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS, LATHAIN. PICK ONE. EITHER THE STAFF HAS WEAKNESSES OR IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO BEAT.

 

3: What did Razor say? That's right... STAFF GETS AN INHERENT BONUS TO OFFENSIVE POWER. Not arguable.

 

I say you're a stubborn mule. Not arguable.

 

Not true of course, but you should see my point: If facts were on a "I call this to be true" basis, the world would be much more messed up than it is. You can't define fact with words. Back it up, bitte.

 

We've had this argument before.

 

But we never finished it. This argument is done when someone can show the hard numbers. If nobody can, then inferiority is an opinion. And when it comes right down to it, opinion is all that's stated in this entire thread. And opinions differ. That is the way of life; get over it.

 

I declare my argument finished until further notice. Replies will be read, but then ignored until someone shows indisputable fact from the game itself or from a leading developer.

[DISTURBED 1]

Ohhhh boy..... where to start....

 

2. To make quotes, use the [ quote ] tag minus the spaces between the "quote" and the

.

 

Thank you for the advice, StaffSaberist. This will help me a bit, though knowing me Ill probably still screw it up.

 

disturbed, relax man, its just a game on the internet

 

You know, I think Im pretty calm, although listening to this argument is really getting on my nerves.

 

2: I already stated that I made a mistake and was referring to sideflip as backflip for awhile. I also mentioned that both are ludicrously powerful defenses regardless. Spun sideflip is just ludicrously powerful offensively on top of defense, even on the supposed end-lag.

 

(*sheepish grin...*) Ok, LV, I'm sorry but I forgot to mention that at about that point in this this whole thread I got pissed off enough at you and stopped reading all of your posts. Of course, saying this leaves me open to a whole lot of sh&t from you, I know know, but I needed to tell everyone that.

 

I pray you are done humiliating yourself.

 

Ohhhh no, don't you worry, Im just getting started on that. In fact, i strive for that every day. Okay, but seriously, if you want someone to argue with you, or stop, what ever, you shouldn't say stuff like that.

 

SHOW THE G*****N CODE. IF YOU CAN'T, YOU CAN'T REFER TO IT. ANYONE WITH KNOWLEDGE OF PROGRAMMING KNOWS THAT.

 

THANK YOU!!

 

So... you dominate the staff (you said so on Page 1 or so) and yet it's impossible to counter? YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS, LATHAIN. PICK ONE. EITHER THE STAFF HAS WEAKNESSES OR IT'S IMPOSSIBLE TO BEAT.

 

Again, THANK YOU!!! He has got a really good point there, LV.

 

But we never finished it. This argument is done when someone can show the hard numbers. If nobody can, then inferiority is an opinion. And when it comes right down to it, opinion is all that's stated in this entire thread. And opinions differ. That is the way of life; get over it.

 

Again, THis is an OPINION PAGE, LV. NOT A *IM RIGHT AND THEREFORE YOU'RE WRONG* page.

 

And guys, this supposed to be a debate, not an argument. And there IS a difference. I have taken a debate course in school, so I know that to be a fact. ARGUE THAT!!!

[StaffSaberist]

Oops. Forgot to mention that at the end of quotes you have a [ /quote ] without the spaces.

 

Pick reply with quote and you'll see what I mean.

[Lathain Valtiel]

Let's make this quick...

 

1: I don't HAVE the code on me. And if I did, I'm not even sure you or even I could fully understand it! If you want it, ask Razorace. In the meantime, considering that the guy managed to rewrite the entire JA saber system and has fixed legions of glitches in base Jedi Academy, I'm going to take his word for it. If you don't, that's your choice, but personally I think you'd be foolish to considering his credentials.

 

Or are you calling him a liar?

 

2: The fact that a weapon can cut through rock if it existed is painfully irrelevant when we are speaking in terms of gameplay balance.

 

The problem with saying that single can do as much damage is that you fail to consider certain factors, like attack speed, damage/time, and guard. It is true that red has great attack damage, but the problem is its attack speed is beyond pathetic, making its overall damage over time less than that of a fast, strong, guard-penetrating, and generally broken style with more defense like staff.

 

3: Excuse me you rat, but I never used the word 'impossible' in any of my posts by itself, it is usually prefixed by the word 'almost' ONCE to indicate great difficulty. Don't put words in my mouth.

 

4: See 1.

 

5: See 1. It also doesn't help that JA actually is highly random short of handing out certain bonuses.

[DISTURBED 1]

No, I am not calling Razorace a liar. In fact, I respect him very much. And I guess you're right, if I really wanted the freakin code, I should just ask him.

 

Oh, and about the never saying impossible thing, I don't know if you were target ing that at me or at StaffSaberist. If you were talkin to me, in all honesty I probably didn't quote it right. sorry. But if you're talkin to StaffSaberist, well, um...... okay im not going to say anything there except it would nice once in awhile if you didn't call people names.

 

CANT WE ALL JUST GET ALONG, GUYS?!?! SERIOUSLY?!??!

 

Okay, this time Im just gonna state my opinion without attacking you, LV. Personally, although I deeply hate to admit this, I happen to think that staff is *slightly* overpowered, but this is because Im now used to playing against bots all the time who are so idiotic they cant tell the difference between a lightsaber and a block of cheese. Mostly I slaughter them, because they use single saber and I use staff. And yes, I hate to admit it, but staff DOES have the advantage of being a little faster, and because it has two blades, it is a little harder to counter.

HOWEVER, I still think that if you're patient enough, good enough, or just really lucky, you can usually win with a single saber. But you have to be really thinking. And besides, and this is my opinion, I tend to think that people who overuse staff are kinda cheap (im not harkin on ya, StaffSaberist, honestly). I think that only one person should be allowed to use the staff, not tons and tons of people. And it shouldn't be someone who can totally wipe the floor with us, but not someone who sucks beyond belief. And besides, Darth Maul's a freakin PANZEE!!

 

Off the topic: Have any of you seen the Spartacus movie? Cause I was just watchin the part where a bunch o' slaves are sittin up on the hillside, and the Roman guys ride up lookin for Spartacus. And it reminded me of that Pepsi commercial spoof of that scene. Man, I was laughin so hard!!!

[StaffSaberist]

No offense taken. I don't always use the staff. Sometimes I use a single and switch usernames to take a look at some hosts before I actually join them. If they look like "OMFG N00B STAFF BANNZOR!!!!11!!!1!" people I just play along - sometimes I play them a few times to see if they're any good. I'm rarely disappointed because I expect them to be weak.

 

No, I'm not calling razorace a liar. But razorace, would you be so kind as to post the code, and tell us what language it's written in? I have some buddies on a few other forums that can help translate it; not that we don't trust you, razorace, but...

[thehomicidalegg]

i cbf'ed reading all new the posts, seems very emotional when i scrolled over them :S

 

gbf = ground butterfly

 

regardless of whatever advantage that is coded into staff, it is insignificant relative to differences in skill levels. therefore you cant definitively say one saber should always beat another

[Lathain Valtiel]

That is correct, however that's the problem. It takes a difference in skill to render the advantage insignificant. That shouldn't need to be.

[StaffSaberist]

The entire point of this thread is how much of a difference is needed. And nobody has shown exactly how much.

 

And no, I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth, or take them out of context. You still say that you own the staff and yet it's nearly impossible to counter (happy now? ...), and it just doesn't work that way. Something as minor as a skill difference shouldn't need to be a debating issue.

 

The way I see it, it should be at least a little imbalanced. If they were perfectly equal, what would be the fun in the game? Staves, when used properly, can simply cause a challenge that needs to be overcome... and it usually can! Of course, it is equally unfair to handicap the staff and make it weaker. If that were the case, everyone would flock to the dual/single, and this thread would be in reverse, you saying the single is imbalanced, me saying... just about the same thing.

 

Of course you're going to run into n00bs who abuse the staff. My advice: find another channel. If people can't use the staff correctly, go somewhere where there are no stavers or only stavers that know what they're doing. But don't try to pin these n00b freaks' behavior on the staff in general. IIRC, there was a lot of arguing in JO about how "blue was imbalanced because noone can keep up" and "red stance is for spamming n00bs", and apparently how only yellow stance was fair.

 

In short, the game isn't quite fair - get used to it. It hasn't been since JO and never will be, though it's not so imbalanced that it's unbalanced.

[Andan]

(Apologies for reviving a 3 week old thread)

 

I have to defend Staff Saberist and any staff saberist in general. If you're a experienced saberist of any type (especially single) and you are open minded and a overall friendly and nice person (some players like to argue the point that anything but what they use is noobish), then staff and duals tend to be, in my experience, a great addition to your current saber skills.

 

For me I'm proficient with single saber and decent on staff. I've found that my love of yellow single stance complements and even helps me when I do need to rely on the staff saber for a duel or a match.

 

IMO, there's exploits, but there's always been exploints in the JK series of games. The expliots in JKA are mainly with saber/melee combat. Exploits can be annoying (like spam), but can help balance out your gameplay and your style of combat when you face opponents on the battlefield.

[MeleeMaster]

I'm an owner of both the xbox version and the PC version of JA. I play the XB version more often because I'm not very good with the controls on the PC (all my PC games are either driving for flying) but I'm a staff user and I'm no noob (atleast on the Xbox version), I use the staff with skill and most of my attacks arent random but rather specific slices. Even though this might have been previously said, for all those people who say the staff takes no skill whatsoever you can shut up because if the staff takes no skill you should be able to weild it efficiently even if youve never touched it before and be able to break through everybodys defences no problem with a few precise yet simple slices then score a super major ultra power criticial on them and kill them in the blink of an eye because it takes no skill at all, am I right? **sarcasm**. (Even though I know this has already been debated some, I think) Besides duals can leave your legs extremely open for a few quick deadly horizontals, and atleast in the Xbox version, people turn on high sensitivity so they can do extremely fast and deadly spin strong moves that cannot be blocked and etc. Besides strong has awesome defence etc. Even though I'm probably restating what's already been said I just wanted to get it out of my system.

 

EDIT:You know what, I just realized something. Whenever somebody compares single to staff or duals, they compare only strong style. When Raven made the 3 styles of combat for single, they ment for all the styles to be used in unison, not only strong, eventually all anybody ever used was strong so nobody was ever good at fighting with fast or medium. I mean you could go up to somebody, send a blow with strong to their saber and send it flying backwards, then quickly switch to fast or medium and get a few quick easy deadly hits. Thats using them in unison. Or the usual aproach people take is they hit somebody with strong which usually is blocked but crushes your guard, and then by the time the strong user finally gets his person to attack again, the other person has his guard back and ready, and might be about to retaliate and counter attack. I know people extremely skilled with single can easily work around this but thats not my point.