Views on Jedi

[JediMaster12]

SilentScope001: I am the 12th master for the record. As to my use of Social Darwinism, it can still be applied even though its original intent was applied to the social classes and the races. Actually this was used in the years of industry boom after the Civil War to justify the proportion of wealth. Of course it was expanded to what you describe. The common phrase that was used was "survival of fittest" hence why I slapped the label on. Yes modern society still uses this system in spite of the new generation of learned liberals and conservatives.

 

What you say about the Jedi using this system holds true for some who are arrogant enough to base status upon it.

[Nancy Allen``]

I never used Force Sight, that allows you to tell what light side dark side alignment they have? Hmmm, that wants me want to play through the game again.

[Lord Foley]

As Vegere taught us, there is no light or dark side of the Force- only yourself. In that sense, both Sith and Jedi are foolish- though Jedi control themselves to wield the Force- making them superior. The Grey Jedi tend to be the strongest, though they normally self-ostrocize themselves, unfortunately.

[SilentScope001]

The common phrase that was used was "survival of fittest" hence why I slapped the label on. Yes modern society still uses this system in spite of the new generation of learned liberals and conservatives.

 

There is a difference between what surivial of the fittest means today and what it means in the past.

 

I always hear that in America, it's equality of the oppunrity, not equality of beniefts. EVERYONE is given the same oppurnity to become powerful, rich, and wealthy. But they must compete with others for that "status". Thus, the "surivial of the fittest".

 

It's different from Social Darwinism since it's not based on genetic and evolution that you are able to "naturally" dominate...basically, in today's society, everyone naturally starts off the same, and then they must defeat each other in order to gain that title of, say, Millionare.

 

What you say about the Jedi using this system holds true for some who are arrogant enough to base status upon it.

 

I'd go farther to say that the Jedi base a lot of stuff on Social Darwinism. After all, are the common folk suspectiable to the Dark Side? Obivously, the Jedi has to make sure they don't fall prey to the Sith, savages that they are. I also wonder if Social Darwinism actually can become true in such a galaxy...after all, in this universe, we see no floating lightsaber, and since the Force is decided via bloodstream...it can lead credence to the belief of superior beings.

 

As Vegere taught us, there is no light or dark side of the Force- only yourself. In that sense, both Sith and Jedi are foolish- though Jedi control themselves to wield the Force- making them superior. The Grey Jedi tend to be the strongest, though they normally self-ostrocize themselves, unfortunately.

 

Current retcon states that Vegere was a Sith, and is likely lying. I don't see Grey Jedi as stronger or weaker than Jedi or Sith, they're...just Grey.

 

I never used Force Sight, that allows you to tell what light side dark side alignment they have? Hmmm, that wants me want to play through the game again.

 

Blue means Light, Red means Dark. Green and Grey are Netrual. The darker the Blue or the Red is, the more extereme their alignment is. Animals too have alignment, but it is usually Grey and Green. There is a bug in which some Dark Side creatures on Korriban (the Hssiss) appear to be Blue, and Light Sided...when they are said to be created by the dark side energiers on some planet, suggesting that they are Dark Sided creatures, not Light Sided creatures.

 

Other than that, it works fine, and allows you to determine a lot about people. Kreia and Visas has a passive Force Sight ability that can be activated via the First-Person View.

[JediMaster12]

I always hear that in America, it's equality of the oppunrity, not equality of beniefts. EVERYONE is given the same oppurnity to become powerful, rich, and wealthy. But they must compete with others for that "status". Thus, the "surivial of the fittest".

I am well aware tha ttime ha a way of changing meaning and interpretation like the law. Yes America is equated with the land of opportunity. The Dec. of Ind. says that we have aright to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Of course we have to work for it. We like to delude ourselves in that we are egalitarian in most respects but in reality the gap between the haves and the have nots is a widening gyre. I am all too well aware of the disproportion of wealth in the US and the misappropriation of funds in my opinion.

 

I don't see Grey Jedi as stronger or weaker than Jedi or Sith, they're...just Grey.

They see neither light nor dark. They are, in modern political terms, the moderates. They may have leanings toward a particular philosophy but stay more along the lines of the shades of grey. They could also be the people who deal with diplomatic relations on a daily basis and can understand where the differences between culture occur. Some things are decided upon a moral basis but lets not get into that.

[Browny11uk]

I think there a set of arragont twits. I like Jolee's side of living he isnt adark nor light he does what is best for him i prefare his tkae much better. Like he can love be still be good but i dont like sith they just kill people for nothing & are evil!

[JediMaster12]

True that Jolee seems to have it right but even then there are dangers abotu his ways too.

[DARTH_DANZIG]

I always hear that in America, it's equality of the oppunrity, not equality of beniefts. EVERYONE is given the same oppurnity to become powerful, rich, and wealthy. But they must compete with others for that "status". Thus, the "surivial of the fittest".

 

A hardy point made.

So then tell me, where is the line between human arrogance leading a path to sustenece, and a human conscience enduring the sight of charity?

 

When does civilization (where verbally-linguistic communication derives) bare the prevelance of uncompromised servitude?

[YertyL]

As Vegere taught us, there is no light or dark side of the Force- only yourself. In that sense, both Sith and Jedi are foolish- though Jedi control themselves to wield the Force- making them superior. The Grey Jedi tend to be the strongest, though they normally self-ostrocize themselves, unfortunately.

An important source that shows Vergere has been corrupting Jacen with her teachings is none other than the creator of Star Wars, George Lucas himself. While many fans argue that the mentioning of the "dark side of the Force" in the movies could be taken as purely the belief of Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi. George Lucas has explicitly stated numerous times, in various interviews as well as commentaries for the movies, that the Force indeed has a light and a dark side, much like how in the Taoist beliefs, the Tao is formed by Yin and Yang, opposites of each other. Lucas's statements, along with the movies, are regarded as G-level canon by Lucasfilm Ltd.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vergere

[Darth Avlectus]

As far as equality of opportunity; concerning social darwinism in a way--since the views on jedi have evolved in this direction;

 

I generally tend to agree with free enterprise/market. However, I'm not so uninformed that I don't realize certain establishment is required to regulate it and keep the 'free' market from tearing itself apart and becoming the very things it is supposed to be against. Keeping it free and equal as far as opportunity is concerned requires this. Or else even this ceases to be.

 

Some claim, "well it's the 'free market', they can do it if they want to and regulations only stifle potential". I counter: eventually one rules... Where the ONE rules, can it really be the free market, then? I realize that is the sort of way of capitalism. However, capitalsim should not become facism.

 

Notice the analogy is similar to republic vs empire?

 

In SW republic #63 "Bail Organa fights for his life"

He makes comments (though not regarding the market, rather the republic as a whole) that go a little like this (though not exactly word for word as I'm going off memory--corrections welcome) which I'd like to bring to the forefront in terms of an idea, "My fellows of the senate, this republic was entrusted to us by our founders. We have a responsibility to maintain and uphold it--and these responsibilities we cannot cede to the ONE. it is not a republic when our power and responsibilities when only ONE has control of them."

 

Basically, our 'free' system is

freedom of choice ('custom'ers) to buy from one store or not, go to another

freedom of pursuit of invetion

freedom of income; provided it is made on MERIT (something many insurance companies don't care about--though some do)

freedom of competition in different venues of market

 

it IS NOT 'free' FROM responsiblity; that being maintaining and regulating the system and keeping it honorable

NOT freedom FROM competition

FROM playing on a "level playing field"

 

Where one company is allowed to keep getting bigger and bigger without restraint, eventually, it kills all other competition. Sure it is not the governing body, but where ONE company rules over all others in EVERY market category and none can compete (thet all die or get bought), would you or would you not say that's pretty much like a nation where the gov't serves the people (communism/socialism)?

 

if certain limits are not in place and strictly enforced, the system is destroyed.

Notice it is the same for governing systems.

 

Also, parts of china are becoming free market after centuries if not millenia of communism...if that says anything. I think this says that the power structure of non free market eventually can't keep up with the people.

 

Communism and socialism assures that everyone is fed and clothed and housed but on the flip side extra effort and inventiveness is never really rewarded, its people don't enjoy as many freedoms or rights, and there is no hope for improvement.

 

My point is that no system is perfect. None completely live up to their codes and such--sort of like how I mentioned before that as long as intellegent life exists (beings self-aware that can choose and feel and disagree) there will always be a possiblity of evil (or good)--depends on what is in contrast to current situation.

 

It's like this full potentials can be realized. Sometimes things must be forgone to realize it. Is it worth destroying honor and life for everybody else just for the saker of making a full potential even fuller?

 

I'll be happy to debate anybody on any points.

[ztemplarz]

Has there ever been a true monopoly in a capitalist system? The only way a true monopoly has and can occur is if the industry maintains POLITICAL monopoly of the industry. Read The Myth of the Robber Barons by Burton Folsom. Unless the state sanctions and supports a company as the only legal enterprise and provides it subsidies, monopolies don't happen.

 

There is always internal or external competition. Companies may break up because of disputes between the board members/founders/owners etc. Or, competition from abroad tests their efficiency and they either collapse or succeed (and wouldn't succeed if it wasn't for their vast size). Or their product/service becomes obsolete (ie. whalers losing their livelihood because of standard oil and Thomas Edison, farriers losing their livelihood because of Henry Ford, corn farmers having to adopt potato farming)- assuming that the GOVERNMENT doesn't stifle the ability for businesses to be started, competition whether direct or indirect will occur.

 

So, trying to tie this in to the actual thread topic, chances are Sith society would end up normalizing itself to a large extent. As invigorating as conflict might be, people would probably get a LITTLE tired of having to constantly prove themselves to survive and fearing for their death at the hands of some ambitious underling (kinda like the auto industries agreeing informally to stifle large innovation since they are all in the same business, or OPEC restricting oil production to protect the price of crude). They would still retain some of the key Sith values and traditions, but undoubtably modify them to be a little more "civil".

 

Laziness is an inevitable condition, all systems tend towards the path of least resistance. This is in support of whoever it was that claimed that passion is exhausting- it is, it requires massive amounts of energy to maintain, and so is costly (hence the rapid physical deterioration of dark side users). The flame that burns brightest burns itself out the fastest, that's a fact. This also is in agreement with whoever it was that mentioned the law of diminishing returns-sometimes it's not worth it to invest 100% because you can achieve 90% of the same return putting out 70% effort. Sith aren't all stupid. This would definitely be recognized and the Sith would become a little more restrained, or else they would destroy themselves.

 

Going on to the Darth Guy arguing for unrestrained Sithness, it ISN'T natural for a system to encourage constant conflict. Watch animal planet. Animals RARELY fight one another. They only do as much as is necessary to survive. Predators hunt when they're hungry and look for the weakest prey that poses the least threat to them. Why? Because if the siberian tiger gets gored when he decides to attack the largest water buffalo that he can find, it doesn't matter whether he kills it and survives or not- his future success is now almost certainly over. He doesn't have culture to defeat his wounds and heal him, he'll probably die because he is to weak. Plus, he can't eat all that meat. What is the point of taking all that risk when he can't reap all the reward. So instead he finds some old senile boar that isn't paying attention and kills it- it meets his needs and doesn't pose a huge danger to him.

 

Animals fight over territory because every system has a limited amount of resources and they need those resources to survive. Animals tend to procreate only as much as they need to to continue survival. Again, no culture to overcome nature, so that means too many children is actually a bad thing, because that means less food, which means children get killed off (the other side of the animal kingdom that tree-huggers conveniently ignore). Sith could persist, but only as Sith-lite. Meaning, formalized procedures for challenging other Sith, and judges to determine if it was a valid challenge (think of a feudal system). In general, powerful Sith would look out for other powerful Sith, because they aren't interested in being eaten by their ambitious charges.

 

On to Jedi.

 

Jedi ARE elitists. They believe that it is their moral obligation to try to guide cultures to success and stability. Jedi are EXTREMELY conservative, because they understand that in general, instability in a system tends to destroy it and make the lives of those dependent on that system extremely trying or impossible. Jedi want to establish animal preserves because they understand that without that specific eco-system, certain species will die off. The problem with Jedi is that they have to decide whether protecting that eco-system is more important than allowing the agricultural project to continue, and they might decide wrongly out of misplaced sympathy for the victim- maybe it WAS time for that species to die out, maybe it should have died out a long time ago and they are fostering weakness by allowing it to hang on to life.

 

Jedi try to reduce conflict because conflict can be destructive. Conflict is productive in the sense that it produces new behavior, strategies, sciences, etc. So if no conflict exists, the system will persist but only very slowly advance and almost certainly be unprepared for outside competition when and if it arrives (kinda like the Republic when faced by the Mandalorians, or Rome by the Germanic tribes).

 

So basically, neither one is completely right. Both could be successful, if not taken to extremes. Both could be successful for relatively short periods of time before collapsing or being destroyed. Things go in cycles (mainly because energy can't be destroyed, only transformed). Something could exist in one form for a REALLY long time, but not forever (unless we're talking supernatural).

 

Going on to the distinctions in using the Force.

 

I think that Jedi have the advantage (since they understand the law of diminishing returns). Basically, they use the Force the most "naturally". Meaning, rather than being that tiger that attacks the largest meat-source he can find (the biggest challenge), they look for that old boar. Also, they try extremely hard to ensure that THEY are the masters of their tool, the Force. By using it carefully, they ensure that they make fewer mistakes with it, and don't get carried away. Clearing one's mind, focusing, meditating, examining other's actions with skepticism, all of those things help to ensure that you are a master of yourself and minimalize the chances that others are going to be able to manipulate you.

 

The Sith's focus on emotion and Angst pretty much ensure that they are going to make mistakes, because emotions are rarely well thought out or understood. The Sith knowingly give themselves over to the Force because of the temporary power it will give them. The issue is that because their judgement is impaired, they might very well dig themselves a grave using that power wrongly applied (they might very well kill that water buffalo, but get too grieviously wounded to be able to fight for long- or find out that that water buffalo was carrying some disease that if they had taken a little more time stalking it, would have realized and not got diseased in the process). Also, they are more prone to just automatically reacting emotionally because that is how they are used to channeling the force and end up not thinking period- which obviously doesn't allow for a long period of survivability.

 

So basically, the Jedi have it right when it comes to using the Force, while the Sith-lite have it right when it comes to "philosophy". The Sith would have the advantage in recruiting Force Sensitives because it would seem like the easiest, most appealing way of using the Force, but ultimately couldn't be as good at using it as the Jedi because of it's costly nature and inherent lack of control and understanding. Capable of more general destruction? Yes.

 

On the other hand, the Jedi have survivability on their side. Their systems aren't likely to catastrophically collapse. The Jedi can reassert themselves and recover from loss, while Sith are more likely to fragment and be destoyed.

 

If you were to combine the social values and attitude of the Sith with the personal development and use of the Force of the Jedi, then you would have something really great.

[Nancy Allen``]

Attitude of the Sith? Oh?

 

"I'll kill you all because I can, because I have the power to do so."

 

False Sith maybe. Most of them are because that is their typical attitude.

[ztemplarz]

Attitude of the Sith? Oh?

 

"I'll kill you all because I can, because I have the power to do so."

 

False Sith maybe. Most of them are because that is their typical attitude.

 

Right, and that's what I was talking about- Sith would attract idiots. People purely interested in power, with limited ability to think through their actions and the consequences that might develop out of them. True Sith probably wouldn't countenance those idiots for long unless they wanted to use them for their amusement (kinda like the Mob versus say Crips). Gaining power isn't a simple process- it does require lots of careful planning and thought. I don't think that the Sith encourage people to be running around in blind fits of rage all day, since it's not even feasible. When pursuit of power is the only objective in life, life becomes pretty empty. Also, when power and forward momentum are the only things that are valued, you're guaranteed to have back-stabbing, instability, and ultimately, anarchy. I'm pretty sure that the Sith don't encourage that (because otherwise they wouldn't exist long enough for anyone to know about them).

 

What I meant by their attitude was their favoring of competition and conflict, but in a controlled environment. Professional sports being a great example. MMA does feature guys beating each other up. They are allowed to do ALMOST anything, but not things that will permanently maim or destroy. Not quite as realistic as "real-life", but approximating it closely enough to be more valuable than say a "sport Taekwondo tournament". Paintballing as opposed to really stalking and hunting other human beings. Technically, Jedi could support these things. I just tend to think that they become so concerned with making sure that conflict doesn't occur that they wouldn't.

[Lord Foley]

An important source that shows Vergere has been corrupting Jacen with her teachings is none other than the creator of Star Wars, George Lucas himself. While many fans argue that the mentioning of the "dark side of the Force" in the movies could be taken as purely the belief of Yoda and Obi-Wan Kenobi. George Lucas has explicitly stated numerous times, in various interviews as well as commentaries for the movies, that the Force indeed has a light and a dark side, much like how in the Taoist beliefs, the Tao is formed by Yin and Yang, opposites of each other. Lucas's statements, along with the movies, are regarded as G-level canon by Lucasfilm Ltd.

But is she all wrong, really? Can a strong person not control and channel the Dark Side more than a weak one? Look at Kreia vs Nihilus or Sion. They are mad with killing for the sake of exerting their power, where Kreia channels all of her strength in intricate, clever ways- ways that make it hard for her to truly look evil. No matter how Light or Dark the Force can be, the person in control has a vast amount of control of how it affects them- which is all that really matters, now isn't it? The Jedi fear they will not be able to control their emotions, that they will turn into crazed murderers if the Dark Side takes them. But again, look at Kreia. She doesn't exactly looked crazed, does she?

[ztemplarz]

But is she all wrong, really? Can a strong person not control and channel the Dark Side more than a weak one? Look at Kreia vs Nihilus or Sion. They are mad with killing for the sake of exerting their power, where Kreia channels all of her strength in intricate, clever ways- ways that make it hard for her to truly look evil. No matter how Light or Dark the Force can be, the person in control has a vast amount of control of how it affects them- which is all that really matters, now isn't it? The Jedi fear they will not be able to control their emotions, that they will turn into crazed murderers if the Dark Side takes them. But again, look at Kreia. She doesn't exactly looked crazed, does she?

 

She might not look crazed, but I think it's pretty safe to say that she is just a little warped, no? Meaning, she sounds like she is sane, but doesn't think in sane thought patterns, or very strongly believes something that is quite clearly insane (kinda like the people at Jonestown, that included teachers, lawyers, and other educated, "sane" "smart" people). Destroying the Force, meaning all life in the universe, to make sure that no one would be manipulated by it? That sounds a little extreme to me...

 

The Jedi don't fear that they will all become crazed murderers, what they fear is that they will cease to be in control of their decisions and that by using the Force inappropriately they will create horrible disasters. For instance, what if they loved someone and force persuaded a president to sacrifice a whole city or nation as ransom to terrorists to make sure that their loved one was returned unharmed.... Or what if they had a really great friend that was a scientist that convinced them that they needed government funding to further their research, so they force persuaded that same president to shift funding from some other project to their friend's project- regardless of whether or not their friend did need the money, was it ethical? Or that they might become jealous of someone and use the Force to ruin their life, not necessarily kill them. That is what the Jedi fear, acting irrationally, unobjectively.

 

A Jedi could use dark side powers, the assumption is that it's a slippery slope. It's relatively easy to act selfishly, a little more difficult to look outside of yourself and self-regulate. The Sith only use the Force selfishly, to advance their own personal motives (meaning it's more likely that they will harm others or violate their "rights" in pursuit of their interests). Jedi try to only use the Force academically, to study it, or to protect other's interests. They HOPE that in so doing that they help people, and minimalize harm. They try to refrain from using the Force to help themselves, because they understand how easy it is to get carried away and end up harming others in the process (again, not necessarily physically).

 

They also realize that they ARE in the minority, and have to protect themselves- it's not all altruism. The more crazed killers using the Force, or people caught using the Force to make illegal business deals, the more likely society will turn against them and attempt to either control them or eradicate them, for good reasons. If on the other hand, they make themselves useful to the establishment and society in general, then they protect themselves and reap some nice benefits in turn.

 

Going to the X-Men, it's the same idea. One side is sensitive to how others view them and think that with their unnatural ability they should help them, while the other side believes that their unnatural ability entitles them to dominion over the less powerful ones.

[Lord Foley]

She might not look crazed, but I think it's pretty safe to say that she is just a little warped, no? Meaning, she sounds like she is sane, but doesn't think in sane thought patterns, or very strongly believes something that is quite clearly insane (kinda like the people at Jonestown, that included teachers, lawyers, and other educated, "sane" "smart" people). Destroying the Force, meaning all life in the universe, to make sure that no one would be manipulated by it? That sounds a little extreme to me...

 

The Jedi don't fear that they will all become crazed murderers, what they fear is that they will cease to be in control of their decisions and that by using the Force inappropriately they will create horrible disasters. For instance, what if they loved someone and force persuaded a president to sacrifice a whole city or nation as ransom to terrorists to make sure that their loved one was returned unharmed.... Or what if they had a really great friend that was a scientist that convinced them that they needed government funding to further their research, so they force persuaded that same president to shift funding from some other project to their friend's project- regardless of whether or not their friend did need the money, was it ethical? Or that they might become jealous of someone and use the Force to ruin their life, not necessarily kill them. That is what the Jedi fear, acting irrationally, unobjectively.

 

A Jedi could use dark side powers, the assumption is that it's a slippery slope. It's relatively easy to act selfishly, a little more difficult to look outside of yourself and self-regulate. The Sith only use the Force selfishly, to advance their own personal motives (meaning it's more likely that they will harm others or violate their "rights" in pursuit of their interests). Jedi try to only use the Force academically, to study it, or to protect other's interests. They HOPE that in so doing that they help people, and minimalize harm. They try to refrain from using the Force to help themselves, because they understand how easy it is to get carried away and end up harming others in the process (again, not necessarily physically).

 

They also realize that they ARE in the minority, and have to protect themselves- it's not all altruism. The more crazed killers using the Force, or people caught using the Force to make illegal business deals, the more likely society will turn against them and attempt to either control them or eradicate them, for good reasons. If on the other hand, they make themselves useful to the establishment and society in general, then they protect themselves and reap some nice benefits in turn.

I am not for completely giving yourself up to the Force, nor to giving in to your raw emotions. I am for understanding the Force; for seeing the truth. Vergere and Kreia are the absolutely perfect examples. Everyone accuses them of being evil, but in reality they are really the only ones who are wise enough to understand the Force.

 

The Jedi believe in altruism and controlling their own emotions so that they might remain in control and not turn into animals. But at any moment did Kreia (or Vergere, for that matter) seem overwhelmed with emotion? Never did she display real emotion. She understood everything, she was always calculating, always understanding the situation for what it was. You claim that the Jedi fear acting unobjectivable. Does Kreia ever look like she is not viewing the world for what it is? Despite her being "of the Dark Side", she was always in control.

 

That is why the Grey Jedi, the Shadow Jedi, and the Potentium 'Heretics' are truly the masters of the Force.

[ztemplarz]

I am not for completely giving yourself up to the Force, nor to giving in to your raw emotions. I am for understanding the Force; for seeing the truth. Vergere and Kreia are the absolutely perfect examples. Everyone accuses them of being evil, but in reality they are really the only ones who are wise enough to understand the Force.

 

The Jedi believe in altruism and controlling their own emotions so that they might remain in control and not turn into animals. But at any moment did Kreia (or Vergere, for that matter) seem overwhelmed with emotion? Never did she display real emotion. She understood everything, she was always calculating, always understanding the situation for what it was. You claim that the Jedi fear acting unobjectivable. Does Kreia ever look like she is not viewing the world for what it is? Despite her being "of the Dark Side", she was always in control.

 

That is why the Grey Jedi, the Shadow Jedi, and the Potentium 'Heretics' are truly the masters of the Force.

 

Well, that failed to address the question of whether she was crazy or not. The fact still remains that she sought to destroy the Force, and with it, all life in the universe.

 

"Darth Traya would refine her beliefs while wandering the galaxy, eventually coming to view the Force as being a sort of uncaring, insidious god that uses the lives of sentients as pawns in a pernicious game of balance. This, she thought, was evidenced by the widespread occurrences of destruction and death that had persistently transpired throughout the galaxy to that point, many of which could be traced to a conflict between Force-sensitives. Yet, Traya blamed neither the Jedi nor the Sith, but rather the very thing they had both come to draw and rely upon: the Force itself. She was, however, upset with the Jedi and the Sith for being too "caught up in the game" to realize how the Force was manipulating them." wikipedia

 

She believed that since the Exile had cut himself off from the Force, that meant life could exist without it. That doesn't mean that's actually the case. While the Force wasn't running THROUGH the Exile, it was being SUCKED IN by him- he was still dependent on the Force for life. And EVEN IF he COULD live completely without it, his life was empty and hollow. Was that because he lost the Force? Meaning, is it because he had lost something that he was so used to? Or was it because without the Force, the will to survive is nonexistent, since the Force is Life? Personally, even being non-Force sensitive (which I'm pretty confident would describe me), I wouldn't want Kreia experimenting with destroying the Force, since I enjoy life.

 

In Kotor II, Kreia was certainly in control, probably because she really had no more emotion left. It's like that analogy of the guy that grows up in a society where it is impossible to kill- that doesn't mean that he is virtuous because he didn't kill. Kreia is jaded with life, with the Force- it's not hard for her to act without emotion. And prior to becoming Kreia, she WAS controlled by the Force, first as a Jedi, then as a Sith. THAT is WHY she abhors it so much. Personally, I don't believe that the Force controls anyone, but that is because I believe in free-will. In other words, Kreia was too weak to "resist" the Force (meaning think for herself, whether as a Jedi or a Sith) and instead decided to call the Force some sort of manipulative monster (self-justification is awesome) so that she wouldn't have to confront the fact that the problem existed inside her, not inside the Force.

[Jediphile]

Well, that failed to address the question of whether she was crazy or not. The fact still remains that she sought to destroy the Force, and with it, all life in the universe.

 

I don't agree with that, because there is an important detail to note here. What Kreia hates is that the force seems to have a will. It is this will of the force that she hates. She does not hate the force itself, and she certainly doesn't want to kill all life. If she did that, then she would have no problem with Nihilus sucking the universe dry.

 

Kreia: "It is said that the Force has a will, it has a destiny for us all. I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me. Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost.But in you... I see the potential to see the Force die, to turn away from its will. And that is what pleases me.You are beautiful to me, exile. A dead spot in the Force, an emptiness in which its will might be denied. I use it as I would use a poison, and in the hopes of understanding it, I will learn the way to kill it."

 

This part, which Kreia speaks near the end of the game, defines Kreia and her quest more than anything else in the game. It's there, but it must be emphasized, because it is so easy to lose track of what Kreia really is all about. That's one of the things we can justly criticize TSL for - it didn't always take the required time to point these things out in the relevant detail.

 

Kreia is the Star Wars equivalent of Captain Ahab from Melville's "Moby Dick", who is at war with God, represented by a giant, white whale. But she's not quite as crazy as Ahab.

 

She is also a satanic or byronic hero in that she seeks to defy ultimate authority or control so completely. The problem is, at what point does the quest for independence and liberty turn from an acceptable desire for freedom to an compulsive obsession to reject authority of any sort?

 

For Kreia that is only part of the problem, though, because she is willing to do things in the pursuit of her goals that makes the "oppression" of the force pale by comparison. She accuses the force of manipulating lives, but certainly doesn't refrain from doing so herself. She accuses the force of dictating fates for all living beings, yet is quite willing to sacrifice others herself. So while Kreia might once have been an idealist pursuing a commendable goal, she has lost her way and - like Anakin - become the very thing she swore to destroy.

 

She believed that since the Exile had cut himself off from the Force, that meant life could exist without it. That doesn't mean that's actually the case. While the Force wasn't running THROUGH the Exile, it was being SUCKED IN by him- he was still dependent on the Force for life. And EVEN IF he COULD live completely without it, his life was empty and hollow. Was that because he lost the Force? Meaning, is it because he had lost something that he was so used to? Or was it because without the Force, the will to survive is nonexistent, since the Force is Life? Personally, even being non-Force sensitive (which I'm pretty confident would describe me), I wouldn't want Kreia experimenting with destroying the Force, since I enjoy life.

 

Personally, I think the exile's case is a little more complicated than that. After all, the exile is in denial about his entire past for most of the game and didn't even realise that he cut himself off from the force. And we can't actually be sure that whether we even know the whole story yet or just what the exile managed to find out...

 

It is true that there is a correlation between life and the force...

 

Qui-Gon: "Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force"

 

Note, though, that he does not actually say that life IS the force.

 

Obi-Wan: "It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together."

 

So, living things, which to me means life, creates the force. Not the other way around. Besides, there are areas in the galaxy dead to the force, yet force suppression clearly does not equal death. Luke Skywalker couldn't use any force powers near the Ysalamiri on Myrkr, but that did not kill him or anyone else. It just suppressed the use of force powers.

 

I don't agree that Kriea blames the force for things inside herself. After all, Qui-Gon also said the following about the midi-chlorians:

 

Qui-Gon: "They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force."

 

Now, however much anyone may love or loathe that idea, this is said in one of the films, making it as much canon as we can get in Star Wars. It establishes that the force has a will whether we like it or not. And if there is a will, then it is permissible for Kreia to hate it.

[SilentScope001]

But, for all these arguments, it seems that there IS the Will of the Force.

 

This Will is the creators of the Star Wars universe, George Lucas.

 

I mean, why in the world did Anakain Skywalker fell to the Dark Side? Cut through the nonsense, and you know the truth: Anakin Skywalker fell because George Lucas wanted Anakin Skywalker to fall.

 

So, it is the designers that decide what happens. Only in K1 and K2, do you have free will to decide what to do...BUT only within the framework the Force gives you. After all, can you go and space Disciple? Nope. Why? The Force (aka, the designers) won't let you. [Not to mention that you TOO can be considered The Force, as you are manlipuating Revan and the Exile, and not actually the Exile himself]

 

With this definition...it looks like Kreia, in attempting to destroy the Force, is secretly contorlled by the Force itself. Kreia soon found that out, and became very, very mad. In fact, I speculate that she sees The Exile as the only one that is able to do what he wants to do (as the Exile is contorlled by the Player). Not even Revan is able to decide what he wants to do, after K1, no matter what alignment he is, Revan flees to the Unknown Space.

[ztemplarz]

I don't agree with that, because there is an important detail to note here. What Kreia hates is that the force seems to have a will. It is this will of the force that she hates. She does not hate the force itself, and she certainly doesn't want to kill all life. If she did that, then she would have no problem with Nihilus sucking the universe dry.

 

Kreia: "It is said that the Force has a will, it has a destiny for us all. I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me. Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost.But in you... I see the potential to see the Force die, to turn away from its will. And that is what pleases me.You are beautiful to me, exile. A dead spot in the Force, an emptiness in which its will might be denied. I use it as I would use a poison, and in the hopes of understanding it, I will learn the way to kill it."

 

This part, which Kreia speaks near the end of the game, defines Kreia and her quest more than anything else in the game. It's there, but it must be emphasized, because it is so easy to lose track of what Kreia really is all about. That's one of the things we can justly criticize TSL for - it didn't always take the required time to point these things out in the relevant detail.

 

Kreia is the Star Wars equivalent of Captain Ahab from Melville's "Moby Dick", who is at war with God, represented by a giant, white whale. But she's not quite as crazy as Ahab.

 

She is also a satanic or byronic hero in that she seeks to defy ultimate authority or control so completely. The problem is, at what point does the quest for independence and liberty turn from an acceptable desire for freedom to an compulsive obsession to reject authority of any sort?

 

For Kreia that is only part of the problem, though, because she is willing to do things in the pursuit of her goals that makes the "oppression" of the force pale by comparison. She accuses the force of manipulating lives, but certainly doesn't refrain from doing so herself. She accuses the force of dictating fates for all living beings, yet is quite willing to sacrifice others herself. So while Kreia might once have been an idealist pursuing a commendable goal, she has lost her way and - like Anakin - become the very thing she swore to destroy.

 

 

 

Personally, I think the exile's case is a little more complicated than that. After all, the exile is in denial about his entire past for most of the game and didn't even realise that he cut himself off from the force. And we can't actually be sure that whether we even know the whole story yet or just what the exile managed to find out...

 

It is true that there is a correlation between life and the force...

 

Qui-Gon: "Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the Force"

 

Note, though, that he does not actually say that life IS the force.

 

Obi-Wan: "It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together."

 

I don't agree that Kriea blames the force for things inside herself. After all, Qui-Gon also said the following about the midi-chlorians:

 

Qui-Gon: "They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force."

 

Now, however much anyone may love or loathe that idea, this is said in one of the films, making it as much canon as we can get in Star Wars. It establishes that the force has a will whether we like it or not. And if there is a will, then it is permissible for Kreia to hate it.

 

I'm not so sure that Kreia really cared whether all life ended or not... If I were to make a guess, I might say that she wanted to stop Darth Nihilus BECAUSE he was a slave to the Force, to his hunger to consume more Force (and yes, this does serve to throw a monkey wrench into my theory of free-will, unless you assume that Darth Nihilus really did understand the implications of his power and really didn't care). Another issue at play here is that EVEN IF Darth Nihilus DID consume all life in the universe, the FORCE would still persist in him. And once he HAD consumed all life, then he would die and the Force would be released and things would eventually (in the sense of millenia) return to normal, with the Force all well and good. The point is, Darth Nihilus WOULD NOT kill the Force- maybe life but not the Force (which is ultimately what Kreia hates). And that also means that there is a distinct chance that Kreia WOULD be willing to end all life IF it also meant the end to the meddling Force. And your quote even included her saying that she hates the Force. If the Force inherently has a will, then the only way to destroy the will is to destroy the Force.

 

Until the Force begins returning to the Exile, he/she admits, no matter what path you take, that ONLY THEN does the Exile begin to FEEL alive again. And that is part of my concern. MAYBE life CAN exist without the Force, but at what cost? Every person that you know of in Kotor II that is described as a wound in the Force HATES their existence, or is at least not happy.

 

"So, living things, which to me means life, creates the force. Not the other way around. Besides, there are areas in the galaxy dead to the force, yet force suppression clearly does not equal death. Luke Skywalker couldn't use any force powers near the Ysalamiri on Myrkr, but that did not kill him or anyone else. It just suppressed the use of force powers."

 

I just looked that up... It's interesting. It's saying that the Ysalamiri push Force away from them to protect themselves from the Vornskrs. Even if that is true, the Force does remain, albeit outside of the "bubbles". They're still not existing independently of the Force, the Force is just constantly being pushed outside their bubbles, like osmosis. Now, if I had it my way, I'd go find some regular dogs and let them loose on the planet- that would be fun! And because the Force is suppressed, does not mean that it is non-existent, but rather that it can't be manipulated by Force sensitives (which is quite different). One could postulate that Force-users would actually be able to siphon more Force near the periphery of the planet, since that is where it is being pushed to!

 

Qui-Gon: "They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force."

 

Maybe Qui-Gon is crazy... You're right, I loathe the idea. Sounds much too akin to the demon on one shoulder and the angel on the other. Even ASSUMING that there really is an angel and a demon, you're still left with free-will, you CHOOSE which one you decide to listen to. Now, if you stop THINKING, then of course you're just going to go with the one that provides the easiest option, which is more than likely going to be the dark side, since the dark side appeals to selfishness and self-gratification.

 

No matter what, you can't DEFINITIVELY say that life can exist without the Force. You DEFINITELY can't claim to know whether Kreia would be willing for all life to end if it meant the end of the Force (kinda like Captain Ahab being willing to sacrifice anything to kill Moby Dick). And IF life can exist independently of the Force, then HOW does FORCE-DRAIN work, when the ONLY thing it "drains" is Force? By definition, Force must be life. Even when the Exile "cut himself off", he could STILL "hear" it, it was just really faint. He didn't remove himself from the Force, he just buried it really deep within himself and threw away the key.

[JediMaster12]

Ok it seems like we are drifting again into dangerous territory. What my orginal question was what people see the Jedi as. I have heard comparisons being drawn and the popular examples given are Anakin and Jacen Solo, if people read EU. We also have crossed into the cynicism territory saying because Lucas wanted it that way.

 

My view on the Jedi is based upon what was observed and said throughout the movies and some of the EU novels that I have read. They seem to be not pacifists but a direct action civil disobedience type. They place emphasis on the greater good,meaning society as a whole. The Sith on the other hand seem to think that power should be grabbed at all costs and used to bend the will of others. I may seem idealistic but that was my initial opinion. Now I see the opposites but the same side, so you might consider me somewhat grey.

[Darth Avlectus]

Ok it seems like we are drifting again into dangerous territory. What my orginal question was what people see the Jedi as. I have heard comparisons being drawn and the popular examples given are Anakin and Jacen Solo, if people read EU. We also have crossed into the cynicism territory saying because Lucas wanted it that way.

 

My view on the Jedi is based upon what was observed and said throughout the movies and some of the EU novels that I have read. They seem to be not pacifists but a direct action civil disobedience type. They place emphasis on the greater good,meaning society as a whole. The Sith on the other hand seem to think that power should be grabbed at all costs and used to bend the will of others. I may seem idealistic but that was my initial opinion. Now I see the opposites but the same side, so you might consider me somewhat grey.

 

 

Agreed. Though I must say, I did not anticipate my little bit about 'capitalsim and communism being analagous to jedi and sith' would indirectly make such a feverish onslaught of replies. Then again, maurice chavez on VCPR (all vice ity and not real BTW) didn't anticipate pastor richards going looney with a revolver and shootin the nudie guy in the studio either.

 

As for ztemplarz sentiments; I won't deny that perhaps such a supernatural entity could exist (and that I possibly just can't see it); I will agree to disagree with you though. However (I'm making no claim to KNOW that this is the answer) I see all of existence -having no particular will but every will- as the ultimate being. Purposes and accomplishment must have trial and conflict, happiness must have suffering, good and evil, etc. It cannot destroy itself or create itself. It always was, it is, and will always be.

Go on and on about higher spiritual beings if you wish; perhaps they are of some unity of willful obedience (not conformity-though there is a lapse between the two) that can manage to stay good even with the power of choice... even though I think we all saw how that went. I reiterate though; with the power of choice there will always be a possibility of the other. In ultimate good, evil will always be possible even though it does not exist at a certain point in juncture. And vice versa when ultimte evil reigns. The cycle is the beat of existence; it gives (and takes) life. Everything changes and evolves. No one thing can last forever. No ever-and-all forseeing power "always in motion" as yoda said.

 

I too am grey by comparison, JediMaster12. Or so it would seem.

 

I do wonder, though, if the force, fate, and life aren't all SEPERATE from each other? Permeating each other and the innards of existence. Certain things happen independently of others. I have always thought of existence as a whole as the ultimate "being". Knowing no face or boundry.

 

I don't deny inevitabilities, but I don't see anything as being so definitve either; don't give too much creedence to the will of a higher power where that higher power may do something even wiser at certain points. Where it isn't necessary to enforce a will......that "something wiser" would be to simply let things play out and work with it as it goes along-after all, who is anybody to say what is will and what simply is churning along?

 

I should also like to add to make this thread more about K3: For whoever said for K3's potential beginning, the question of whether to be a jedi (or sith) versus a regular guy at the start: there should be an option whther or not to be. Each should have certain drawbacks:

 

Obviously we have seen in the 'regular joe until a certain level' approach. Its only drawback is, say on K1 you start out as a scout and hit level 9 then become a Jedi Guardian. Obviously you in your jedi stuffs will not be as developed as someone who was a guardian to start with (i.e. Juhani), but you acrry with you certain traits that a pure guardian could not. (though this is a strictly player thing anyway its the only one I care to say: I.E. you get your repair skill up to 13 and grab the modifier item to put it at 17 so you can repair HK-47 and get the additional goodies as well as find out what happened with HK, pre-leviathin).

To 'start off as a jedi option', I would say (just to make it interesting and encourage the replay value even more) the character has quite a bit of a different role in the storyline (dialoge covering a wide range of matters, like what we've discussed here, even), many things should not be able to be done if you start out that way as opposed to the regular joe (I mean come on, it's too easy if you just give everything to the jedi like you give it to everyone else), game should be extremely more difficult--in a challenging and puzzling intrigue and NOT redundant way-- until a certain rendezvous point...and even then a few consequences will stick because of the way you started either way. That would make it more like real life. Different beginnings and initial levels--springed by any one or chain of several related events.

Also, Like the trade off, when you choose what character you wanted to take the lead on the leviathin while your main character and 'B' and 'C' were being held up. I want more of that. It sends a good overall message of teamwork, unity, and morality of sorts--as well as a good reminder to modify your characters wisely.

[Lord Foley]

But, for all these arguments, it seems that there IS the Will of the Force.

 

This Will is the creators of the Star Wars universe, George Lucas.

 

I mean, why in the world did Anakain Skywalker fell to the Dark Side? Cut through the nonsense, and you know the truth: Anakin Skywalker fell because George Lucas wanted Anakin Skywalker to fall.

 

Pardon my saying it, but that is a stupid argument. The designers make the story, but it does not make them a part of it.

 

Agreed. Though I must say, I did not anticipate my little bit about 'capitalsim and communism being analagous to jedi and sith' would indirectly make such a feverish onslaught of replies. Then again, maurice chavez on VCPR (all vice ity and not real BTW) didn't anticipate pastor richards going looney with a revolver and shootin the nudie guy in the studio either.

 

As for ztemplarz sentiments; I won't deny that perhaps such a supernatural entity could exist (and that I possibly just can't see it); I will agree to disagree with you though. However (I'm making no claim to KNOW that this is the answer) I see all of existence -having no particular will but every will- as the ultimate being. Purposes and accomplishment must have trial and conflict, happiness must have suffering, good and evil, etc. It cannot destroy itself or create itself. It always was, it is, and will always be.

Go on and on about higher spiritual beings if you wish; perhaps they are of some unity of willful obedience (not conformity-though there is a lapse between the two) that can manage to stay good even with the power of choice... even though I think we all saw how that went. I reiterate though; with the power of choice there will always be a possibility of the other. In ultimate good, evil will always be possible even though it does not exist at a certain point in juncture. And vice versa when ultimte evil reigns. The cycle is the beat of existence; it gives (and takes) life. Everything changes and evolves. No one thing can last forever. No ever-and-all forseeing power "always in motion" as yoda said.

 

I too am grey by comparison, JediMaster12. Or so it would seem.

 

You don't seem grey so much as you seem to simply be a nonbeliever. The grey Jedi see the Force to be more healthy when balanced between light and dark, and you look at it like it could not possibly be- or at least in the sense that we supposedly know it.

 

I would like to believe that the Force is grey, and balanced- completely one entity, with no light and dark side. But our Lord George Lucas has told us on many occasions that the Force isn't, so unfortunately, I just look evil.

 

The Force is all about how you allow it to flow through you. Even the Dark Lords can exert more control over themselves than Jedi if they are truly strong.

[SilentScope001]

Pardon my saying it, but that is a stupid argument. The designers make the story, but it does not make them a part of it.

 

But it makes them God. They are responsible for the story, they created all the characters. How can you talk about an omiprescent entity that contorls everything (the will of the Force) instead of going to the source, the people who made the story in the first place, the "puppetters", if you will, who make a story only for money, and who really do not care of the pain and misery they inflict upon all the characters. You know why everyone cares what George Lucas says...because he's the main designer who knows how HIS world is supposed to run.

 

If the Will of the Force really cared for the people in the galaxy, he would have made it all LS people who live in a Utopia. It is obivous the Will does not, so why? The answer is right in front of us, we just need to shatter the "4th Wall" (the boundary between real-life and the story-life) to get it.

[PoiuyWired]

Well, ultimately we as players and fans does have some control over stuff. The obvious example being the bobba resurrection. Well obviously he is back due to the wishes of his fans(and the possable merchandise that goes with it).

 

Point, since we are also comsumers and the galaxy far far away is also tied to annoying mundane things like money and profit, the general tide of our wishes does sway things around sometimes, ignoring the SWG case since Sony is a muthraflucking besturd son of a beach that doesn't listen to nyone and sells inferior overpriced consoles.