Views on Jedi

[Tysyacha]

In my opinion, the Jedi are gifted people who want to serve and protect

others. However, they are not perfect, and they're not above doing things

like lying if it's for the common good. They never told Darth Revan, for instance,

that he was Revan, and they never told Luke that Vader was his father. This

lying was not done for manipulative reasons, though, but out of fear.

 

The Jedi feared that Revan would turn back to the Dark Side if he knew the truth.

The Jedi feared what the Exile could do to the Force, and so they lied to the Exile.

The Jedi were afraid Luke might seek bloody revenge against Vader, which

would not be the Jedi way, and thus they hid the truth from Luke Skywalker.

 

They can also become arrogant, and I hate their views on love and passion.

I believe love is a good thing, although it can lead to jealousy and possessiveness.

The Jedi Order should have allowed Anakin and Padme to be married, and they

should have made him a Master before they put him on the Council. That way,

he MIGHT not have fallen to the Dark Side of the Force, but notice the MIGHT.

 

However, the Jedi believe that everyone deserves a second chance, like

Revan and Darth Vader. I'm all for redemption, so I'll stick with the Jedi.

[JediMaster12]

If what you say is true Tysyacha about the Jedi and their fear, wouldn't they be already on the path to the darkside? In the words of Master Yoda, "Fear is the path to the darkside. Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering." Yes we all have fear but then what exactly is it about fear that would lead someone to fall so far?

I do say this, the Jedi do believe in redemption at least in the games but lookin at Return of the Jedi when Luke tells Obi-Wan that ther was still good in Darth Vader, he seemed unwilling to believe that.

I guess it boils down to the individual and their inner strengths.

[Darth InSidious]

Revan and the Exile's Jediness depends on what path you take. If you are LS, then they are Jedi. If you are DS, they are Dark Jedi, IMO.

[JediMaster12]

Ah if they are Jedi they will forgive and if they are not, they will not care.

[Master omega]

The jedi are honerable powerfull wise beings i personaly would not say if i had the force what personal stand point on the Darkside/Lightside thing would be becuase even though i agree with the protecting off all life and teaching the ways off the force. I dont agree with there stand piont on Love and redempation. For exsample Do you really think everone is justified in being redemed no mater what they did do you really think someone like Palpatine or one off the sith lords off old would have been redemed by the jedi If they turned from the darkside. I sertely dont

[Darth InSidious]

Ah if they are Jedi they will forgive and if they are not, they will not care.

Got it in one!

[Cygnus Q'ol]

Just because you are a force user doesn't make you a Jedi.

 

There is much training to become able to control yourself and the force enough to be trusted to go out into the gaalaxy and help others.

 

Which is what the order of Jedi do.

 

Some of their ideals however, are lost on me. Like the whole love thing.

How are we going to make little younglings if we aren't allowed to love?

 

Where do young hopefuls come from if not from jedi?

Why do the jedi pluck these youngsters from their families, for the greater good of the universe?

Some would say that's evil.

[JediMaster12]

Yes but relationships with family are frought with emtion, such extremes are to be avoided. Still controlling your passions while being in love, that is what they should teach you. Love itself will save you, not condemn you.

If love were forbidden, how could Obi-wan tell Anakin that he loved him and called him his brother?

[Cygnus Q'ol]

Yes but relationships with family are frought with emtion, such extremes are to be avoided. Still controlling your passions while being in love, that is what they should teach you. Love itself will save you, not condemn you.

If love were forbidden, how could Obi-wan tell Anakin that he loved him and called him his brother?

 

Sounds like a page out of Jolee's book.

 

I still wonder where the younglings come from.

[JediMaster12]

"The Force is in all of us but for some it is barely but a measurable whisper" Bastilla

 

In some ways even you are more capable than a Jedi. You could survive where they could not simply because you don't hear the Force as they do. Kreia to Atton

[JediMasterDeath]

Excellent Thread! UBER KUDOS TO GRAY ON THIS

This is the meat and potatos of the Star Wars Universe right here.

 

Now to answer this I must first answer what are the characteristics of a PERFECT JEDI? I don't care about what Mace has done, or Yoda, or Anakin, or Obi. WHAT DOES THE JEDI CODE SAY THE PERFECT FULL-ON JEDI SHOULD, IN THIS CASE, FEEL?

 

There is no emotion; there is peace.

There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.

There is no passion; there is serenity.

There is no death; there is the Force.

 

Remeber, Obi-Wan is NOT "The Jedi" Anakin is NOT "The Jedi" they are single Jedi, a piece of a much greater whole, if you will. Thus you can't judge a whole by a single.

 

Now lets break down the Jedi Code

1. - There is no emotion; there is peace.

A. Emotion: Any strong "feelings." (forgiveness, love, and even pride. If they can't experiance pride, this would mean that arrogance should also then be unexperianed by a TRUE JEDI)

B. Peace: The absence of mental stress or anxiety.

 

2. - There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.

A. This means they must be aware, never be unable to obtain knowledge

B. Knowledge: Experience with perception, learning, and reasoning.

 

3. - A. There is no passion; B. there is serenity.

A. They can't be intensely emotional.

B. Serenity: Free from stress, anxiety, or emotion.

 

4. - A. There is no death; B. there is the Force. (Heres a tricky one )

A. Death: End of life, departure from life.

B. Force: Physical energy or intensity, a powerful effect or influence.

 

5 - Love: A strong positive emotion of regard and affection. (Since this was mentioned in the last couple posts, I might aswell comment on it) The Jedi codes first line is "There is no emotion." Thus love is forrbiden. In the Sith Code it states "Peace is a lie, There is only passion, Through passion I gain strength." Some people say that this means that love is allowed by the Sith, and not by the Jedi. Wrong. Passion: A state of being intensely emotional, you can be passionate about manny things, not just love. To love someone or somthing shows a "weakness." Padme was Anakins weakness, and Palpatine used this to his advantage many times. At the end he lied to Darth Vadar, telling him he had killed Padme. Thus eliminating Vadars weakness. Sith do not tolerate weakness, and there for it must be eliminated.

 

Therefore the perfect Jedi would have no strong feelings, be absent of any stress of anxiety, would be experienced with perception, learning, and reasoning, and (This is only my opinon I supose) would not believe in death, but ever-lasting intense engery that has a powerful effect and influence over life. In my opinon these traits most imbody the Jedi Qui-Gon Jin.

 

Most people would say that Qui-Gon's decesion to make Obi promise to train Anakin was the down fall of the Jedi. Most also believe that Anakin was a false "chosen one"

However during the battle in the Second Deathstar, after Luke Skywalker had beaten Darth Vadar (Anakin Skywalker), Emperor Palpatine (Darth Sidious) struk down Luke. In the end as Palpatine was slowly killing Luke, Vadar became no more and it was Anakins love for his child that gave him the power to over-come the darkness in his heart and finally defeat Palpatine. Thus I believe it was truly Anakin Skywalker whom brought balance to the force, and defeated the last of the Sith. So I think Qui-Gon actually did know what he was doing. ^.^

(Once again this is only my opinon) Is this not in a way how Revan started as a Jedi, went to Sith, and then once again became a Jedi in defeating a Greater Evil? (For the LS atleast )

 

The Jedi are the ones whom attempt to bring balance to the force. These codes and rules they follow are to aid them in bringing Balance to the force, and to remind them of their true goal. Equilibrium. All survive as a whole to live in peace.

 

The Sith care not for balance, or being equal. When your a Sith your the strongest or your weak, your never equal. "The strong survive, and the weak die."

 

To conclude, as long as even 1 person will only believe that "The strong survive, and the weak die" equilibrium will be unatainable. When everyone can finally accept equilibrium shall it be in reach.

> . < Once again thats just my thoughts > . <

[Cygnus Q'ol]

Good point, I never thought of it in quite that way. Love did, afterall triumph.

 

However, two things:

1) There are no guidelines in the jedi code of love and procreation. Anakin did this in secret and against the jedi teachings.

 

2) Did Qui-gon actually know what he was doing? Last he saw Anakin he was a boy, hardly touched by the darkside. He dies. Many years passed, then Anakin's fall. Then many more years pass as Anakin reigns as sith lord. Finally, he turns his back to Sidious to save his long lost son. Killing the master and himself, but not before redemption.

 

I seriously doubt Qui-gon saw all of this while stealing a dab of blood from a boy.

[JediMasterDeath]

I would have too If at the end of Revenge of The Sith Yoda hadn't said that Qui-gon had become a force ghost For all we know he was watching Anakin throught ep 2-6 ^.^ What if Qui-Gon hadn't told Obi to train Ani? Would Duke, Grievous, and Sidious have destroyed the Rebellion still? Thoese are the questions that get you thinking ^.^ Qui-Gon believed the boy would forfill the phropecy, and I believe he did

lol, I wasn't trying to add love as a Jedi code >>> 5 - Love: A strong positive emotion of regard and affection. >>>>>>>(Since this was mentioned in the last couple posts, I might aswell comment on it)<<<<<<<< Thats the only reason I mentioned it there > . < I for one can't really know If Qui-Gon would or wouldn't have truly know(Just my opninon ). But I do know he was determined to have Anakin trained as a Jedi, even if anakin was to old, even if it men't dropping Obi as an apprentice, even after the council forbid it, even at the very moment he was dying. He had to have known that somthing about that boy that everyone else didn't

[Servantoflight]

Well, ui-gon might have foreseen it. As in KotOR 2 Kreia said something about the force allowing you to 'see' into the future. (My memory might be a bight rusty) However, here is my view of the Jedi:

 

The Jedi are much like the church, the set up is perfect, the church is (supposedly) set up by people (long ago) who God talked to directly. Therefore, the church is perfect, the positions are perfect, and just because someone fills that perfect position does not make them perfect. The person can choose to do what they are suppose to do, or to abuse their positions.

 

1. The Jedi have a set of guidelines, like we have the bible (or whatever religion you practice) which we can choose to obey or not obey.

 

2. The amount of power each Jedi position has and the positions in the church are perfect. The people that fill those positions are not perfect and never will be, but some might start to believe that they are, and become blind to there mistakes and cannot fix them.

 

3. In the KOTOR games there was the 'fall of the Jedi', which I believe is the Jedi consul could not admit there mistake of (mutiple choice here)

-not explaining the plan to the Jedi who felt the need to save the innocent being slaughtered by the Mandalorians

-Could not come up with a plan in time and just covered their butts by saying they had a plan

-Thought the right thing to do was stay out of the fight, then that they should have gone to war to stop it, where too arrogent to see their mistakes and blamed it on those who went to war trying to save countless innocents. Therefore, starting (or not stopping) the Jedi Civil War.

 

Now my whole veiw of Jedi and their ban on love is this: If you love someone (spouse, or offspring) then when they are killed you feel anger and are more susseptable to the DS and revenge. The Jedi are there to help society, and if they allow themselves to love, then they will be bias, wanting to give more to there loved ones rather than a complete stranger. As such, love cannot exist without hate, and hate cannot exist without love. If you let one in, you let both in, and the Jedi (I think) would rather avoid the whole thing entirely, no love, no hate, no strong emotions. As an enemy could use those emotions against you, especially if you are allowed to love.

[JediMaster12]

Yes there are guidelines for they Jedi but they are not perfect. Jolee says it in KOTOR. Love and passion are not the same thing, check out the OED meaning of love and passion.

 

Leaves the discussion table

 

By the way JediMasterDeath, I started this thread.

[Master omega]

My oppion on this is we all have diffrent views on this i agree the perfect jedi would follow the jedi code to the letter. And that Anakin was in fact the chosen one in the end due to his love for his Son. So his love Was His weekness and then his strength. But i belive That The jedi order in the expanded universe has it right the most because They dont ban love relashoips Luke and his fellow masters are told to be always mindfull off their fellings and to take strenght from them. The old jedi order should have taken the same stand point in my oppion. And to be honest the old jedi did kind off almost love each other because that attachemnt for master and apprentince was vergin on this. (Agin in my oppion) They semed to gain strengh From this wich is an emotion.

 

P.s Watch Ep2 and listten carefully You can hear Qui-Gon Shouting anakin !!! When he lose it with the Sand people.

[Jae Onasi]

(snipped) The Jedi are an unholy order. They are the evil that walks among us....We Sith on the other hand are the most noble of all people. We remove the weak links from a society so that only the best survive. With only the strong genetics we can start to improve ourselves, so one day everybody will be perfect.

 

Going philosophical here, and not trying to attack anyone personally, it just happens that jedi3112 did a nice job of summing up Sith views (which are not mine).

 

Well, let's take the Sith philosophy to its logical conclusion. If Sith are philosophically and genetically superior, then they should continue to purify their gene pool and become a Super-race by killing off anyone inferior. What's inferior? Anything that makes the race or empire function improperly is inferior. Anything or anyone that does not contribute to the ultimate Sith philosophy is inferior. Anyone who doesn't agree with the ultimate Sith philosophy is inferior (because if they truly believed, then they would agree). Anyone who is not liked/useful to his superior is inferior. Who determines what is superior? The guy at the top of the food chain--the Sith Lord. What does this lead to? A Sith Lord determining who and what is 'superior' (regardless of whether he's actually correct or not). Destruction of anything and anyone who does not contribute to the Sith Lord's wishes. Stifling any creativity (including that which could improve the empire or people in unique ways) if it does not conform to the Sith Lord's views or wishes. Conforming blindly to the Sith Lord's wishes, even if you know he's incorrect, for fear of being eliminated if you question his orders. Subjugation of entire races and planets. Destruction of anything the Sith Lord doesn't like or anyone who attempts to stop him. Desire to expand the empire by any means possible in order to gain more power over enemies, including enemies in his own ranks. Development of a police state to control those he has subjugated. Genocide, if the Sith Lord decides that it's in his personal (or his empire's) best interest.

 

The Jedi are meant to be the antithesis of this philosophy.

 

Do they always succeed? No, because they are imperfect beings just like everyone else (or, at least they're as imperfect as George Lucas writes into the script ). Both Jedi and Sith are blessed with incredible powers due to the Force. However, the Jedi choose to wield this power for the good of the galaxy, not for personal gain. They represent all that is good and right in the universe. Their goal is to root out and destroy evil, protect those who can't protect themselves, dispense proper justice, and foster a safe environment in which people can grow and develop. Because they are constantly required to mediate and/or fight in volatile or dangerous situations, they require a tremendous amount of training in order to wield their gifts for the good of the universe. They have to be skilled in diplomacy, politics, psychology of various races, history, strategy, tactics, and fighting if the need comes. They have to be intelligent enough to see all the various options and wise enough to discern which one is the correct option in any given situation. They have to handle their gifts with a great deal of responsibility, honesty, humility (arguably something missing in some of the masters in the movies), honor, and grace. Even though they control great power, they have to recognize that they are simply servants of the Force and those around them. The Jedi Order was created by imperfect beings, so it's not going to be perfect itself, although they are always well-intentioned. The Jedi is a group of beings who are trying to do their best to analyze and interpret any given situation and respond wisely in a way that is going to ultimately provide the most beneficial effects on the universe. The Jedi Order is meant to provide a framework in which a Force-sensitive person/being can develop his unique powers from apprentice through master in such a way that the Jedi hones his skills to the greatest degree possible while minimizing the corrupting influences of the dark side. While it is not always perfect, the Jedi Order's goal is to protect its own as much as the rest of the universe from the dark side. So, the ultimate Jedi is one who wields the Force with a great deal of strength, who is always seeking to make himself a better person, who attempts to make the lives of those around him more positive, and who does so in an honest and humble manner, knowing he is a servant of the Light.

 

Ok, enough philosophy for now!

[Darth InSidious]

Good points. If people think the Jedi are slow to react, what about the Baran Do?

[JediMaster12]

The Jedi look at the whole picture, the whole thing about the greater good. You Sith like to look at the here and now and not the future. That's why you guys are always dying; power but no longetivity.

[Revan Skywalker]

The Jedi are flawed. The Sith are flawed. They both have weaknesses and strenghts. But in the end, both fail at different times. The Sith, the early Wars. The Jedi, Order Sixty-Six. You must not fear the dark side, use it, but keep your emotions in check. You must have a perfect balance between the two to be at peace, and to never have your Empire, or Order, get destroyed. The only beings who had this kind of serenity were.... Revan ( lightside ), Jolee Bindo, Klye Katarn, Luke Skywalker, Anakin Solo, Anakin Skywalker kind of had it, and the greatest of them all, Jacen Solo. He knew what the Force truly was, and recognized the advantages in wielding the Light and Dark Side of the Force. He was the perfect Force user.

[Darth InSidious]

What about Yoda? Vandar Tokare? Obi-Wan? They all seemed pretty serene.

[Revan Skywalker]

Obi-Wan and Yoda were pretty serene, yes, but were they wise, no. They could not sense the Sith threat until too late, much like the Jedi Civil War. As the prophecy of the one said, A chosen one will be born, and will tip the scales to balance, but only one will truly mourn. I got this from my brother, Steve. He works with Lucasfilm. He's a cameraman. Back to my point. The Jedi felt too safe. And they were all but conquered. This why Revan attacked the Republic. After the Mandalorian Wars, the Republic felt too safe. So Revan gave them a new threat. This kept them sharp and alert.

[Master omega]

I see Why you would say that jacen Solo is the perfect jedi because he can see The advantage to use both side of the force. According to what weve read thats the only way the jedi were able to defeat the Vong. But In the Dark Nest books we read that Luke is trying to change this appion on the force To be more mindfull of the darkside. Because it caused the Fall off one off The jedi knights Alema Rar. And he is undoubtfully the gratested Jedi in the Expandend Universe (my Opppion). They have become to dependint on that attudde and become less mindfull off the darkside sway on them. Which is the gratest risk in this oppion.

[Revan Skywalker]

Agreed.

[Darth n00b]

While I were reading trough the thread I noticed a patern.The hypocrisy(?), the lies and the arogance comes from one group of Jedies, the masters, the powerfull and the respected.

Obi Wan, Yoda, Vrook, Bastilla...

 

While tho ones that can see the colours is the ones that have traveled into the twilight zone of the force, such as Jolee and Kyle.

 

And for keeping my self on topic:

I see the Jedies as galactic police, and kinda like a japanese fighting thingie.

The ninja's belived that they had to leave their emotions to be good ninjas, the name "ninja" comes from nin (The own heart pirced) and ja (human).

(Ninja's wearn't wariors, but more spies wich only killed when needed, or when the mission were assationation)

 

But enough of my half asleep ramblings...