Views on Jedi

[BattleDog]

Firstly, I could shoot the guy, probably at WEG, who came up with the idea that the Force has two sides. The movies clearly show that there is only the Force, it even says it in the Code.

 

There is no death, there is the Force.

 

It doesn't say the light side of the Force

 

A true Jedi should be a servant of the Force, he does not seek to influence it or command it. He uses it in the way which it dictates. The Jedi are dedicated to bringing balance to the Force. Lucas has stated that Anakin brought balance to the Force not by reducing the number of Jedi but by finally destroying the Sith.

 

The Jedi serve the "light" because the darkness is easy and therefore apt to grow. The Jedi fight the dark side because if they don't it will win and the balance will be destroyed The dark side feeds off itself and grows stronger, the galaxey needs the Jedi to fight it.

 

So what is the dark side? Well the Jedi believe it is a corruption of the true Force and I am inclined to agree. The Force is nature and the dark side does not exist in nature, in fact the dark side is a manifestation of the Force twisted within an individual.

 

So if the Jedi are the guardians of the will of the Force why were they destroyed? They became arrogant, a trait common in Sith, a Jedi is suppossed to be in control of their emotions, they have them but they do not allow them to rule their thoughts or actions. Pride and arrogance are of the dark side, these began to seep into the Jedi philosophy and their power began to diminish.

 

How did the Jedi become arrogant, like anything of the dark side it was very easy. If a Jedi feels the Force and lets it guide him then obviously his every action is right and the will of the Force. Once a Jedi begins to think this way he rejects the possibility he could be wrong. Now he has pride and is arrogant.

 

What bothers me about TSL is that the Jedi there seem to have the same level of arrogance as in the prequels, even though en masse they didn't have it forty years ealier and are still rebuilding after the last Sith War. Interestingly enough the same level of arrogance doesn't seem to be present in KOTOR, even in Vrook.

[Vaelastraz]

Well at least starwars.com claims there are 2 sides of the force: http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/yoda/

 

[...]The two entered into a spectacular duel -- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides.[...]

[Master omega]

We all no there is two sides two the force lets be honest my appion off the force is that is is basicly the power of life. Eg the two sides are life and death nether are inhertly evil they just are a part off it. and the jedi and sith teach and use both depending on there own indvidual values and oppions. ill explain what i mean The force rember has bein explained to use as part off life without the force there can be no life and as yoda told Anakin that if one die's not to fear or morn this because that person has become one with the force.So hince Two sides off the force.

[Steve-O Kreesh]

I myself agree with Lucas's own view of the Jedi. The Jedi the galaxy's samurai, galactic sheriffs that help the weak and protect the innocent.

Now the Jedi follow the will of the force yet the Sith bend the force to their will. The rules of the Jedi are clear that attachments are forbidden, but secret relationships do happen within the Order. The exile admits to as much in certain conversation threads with the handmaiden. Not all Jedi that have lovers go darkside, look at Revan and Bastilla. In Anakin's case, his hunger to control life is what helped cause his fall. His greed to learn how to save Padme is what Sidious took advantage of.

I've read the New Jedi Order books too, and from them I think Force does not have a darkside. It's the darkside in all Jedi that cause them to fall. It's the individual that decides to do right or wrong and what they do after is what causes them to turn.

It's the individual personality of a Jedi that determines whether or not they are at risk of falling. Anakin showed those traits and that is what the council feared. Other Jedi have showed similar personalitys. Alema Rar, Kyp Durron, Mara Jade Skywalker, Zekk, and even Jaina Solo are some of those Jedi. All have turned darkside on some level at one point or another. Some were "saved" from the darkside, yet one is lost due to being corrupted by a more powerful influence.

 

Now this is just my personal view, but like in real life Jedi have to take responsibilty for their actions. Most do and seek the forgiveness of their peers. Some do not and choose not to. Those are the Jedi most at risk of turning "darkside".

[RedHawke]

Firstly, I could shoot the guy, probably at WEG, who came up with the idea that the Force has two sides. The movies clearly show that there is only the Force, it even says it in the Code.

PnP RPG's are about good and evil, or even order and chaos, at their cores, when making an RPG system for something like Star Wars sometimes the source material has to be deviated from to make a playable game system.

 

Fact is there is a Dark side the movies tell us as much, especially the OT, so there must be a Light side. This is where the games come from, and it actually makes better sense than Lucas' "cover-up his plot mistake" ramblings on the subject.

[mxsuprastang]

. . .But had the Council been more open minded and felxable with their code. . .

 

Can you be flexible and still have a code? That doesn't make much sense, it's like bending the rules for one person, it's not a good idea. Anakin knew what he was getting into when training to become a Jedi, he knew the rules, obligations and yet cried about the fact that he had to abide by them. Was he powerful, yes. But for some reason he believed he was an exception to the rules when he wasn't, like the "not being granted master on the council" scene. He believed that it was his right to be a master, even though he hadn't earned it from the right people. Exceptions can't be made in rules or a 'code' if you will, nothing good can come from it. Either obey the rules and accept the good consequences or disobey them and await your punishment.

 

Anyways, enough about that. The Jedi have their flaws, but nobody is perfect. I've always looked at Jedi as the "uncorrupted police" They go around the galaxy making sure that justice is intact. Justice isn't revenge and isn't one sided. The Jedi protect the galaxy form what it turned into during "The Dark Times" The Jedi ROCK!

[JediMaster12]

Yes, Anakin's abilities made him arrogant.

 

Yes a flaw more and more common among Jedi. Too sure of themselevs even the older, more experienced Yoda

[Revan Skywalker]

The grew too complacent. They thought that the Sith were extinct, instead of searching the galaxy for their arch enemies.

[JediMaster12]

What do you do when you can't sense a threat? That was why Palpatine decided to strike when he did. He knew the Jedi couldn't sense it.

[Revan Skywalker]

But they should have known not to trust their senses. Look at what haqppened during the Jedi Civil War. The Mandalorian Wars. The Great Sith War!

[JediMaster12]

The Jedi prefer to look at the whole picture. There was more at stake. Don't you remember what Bastilla said about something lurking out there in the Outer Rim and beyond? Sometimes the best way to fight an enemy is to make the enemy show himself by drawing him out.

[Steve-O Kreesh]

^ Yeah, but the remaining Jedi after the Jedi Civil War did just that and gathered on the Miraluka homeworld. Look what happened then. It would have been a better idea to do what they did after that disaster. Separate and go to places touched by war, Kavar's idea was a good one.

[YertyL]

The Jedi prefer to look at the whole picture. There was more at stake. Don't you remember what Bastilla said about something lurking out there in the Outer Rim and beyond? Sometimes the best way to fight an enemy is to make the enemy show himself by drawing him out.

It seemed to me that the Republic would truly have fallen if Revan, Malak and the other younger jedi had not interfered (One dialogue option in KOTOR2 is (roughly) "The Republic would have fallen if Revan had not interfered. That's a fact!" (while arguing with Atris the first time)) and I do not think that the intention to lure an enemy out of the shadows justifies the sacrifice of millions or eventually billions of lives...

 

I am really not sure what would have been the correct choice, and I believe that this is the way the two KOTOR games put it - there is a lot of arguing about that point (even in KOTOR 1, e.g. the 2. Bastila - Carth conversation) without a definite answer.

 

Remember Jolee's words: The jedi have good intentions (at least most often), but they are not perfect

[Steve-O Kreesh]

Jolee was right, that's why a lot of people want him to be in the new Kotor as a force ghost. Even the best intentions can have tragic consequences. I think Kreia says that in TSL on Nar Shadaa. But also doing nothing but discussing what will happen if Jedi get involved in a matter is wrong too. If the council had done a better job at training the Jedi that left for the Mandalorian War, training them to turn away from conflict once a battle has been won. The exile had to learn that the hard way. When he witnessed all those deaths at Malacor V, he closed himself off the the Force. It took Kreia's training to bring him back to the Force. If more Jedi had gone through what he did, more would turned way from war and wouldn't have had followed Revan to war. By the time some of the Jedi council members realized this, the Jedi Civil War was already in full swing.

[JediMaster12]

You may have a point there. I sense you may be a gray jedi or rather you see more gray than dark or light and both extremes annoy you Anyway that is valid. Even Zez-Kai Ell said something along the lines that perhaps the teachings had become arrogant and even the Order itself. My question to you is this: what about Kreia telling Atton that it is conflict that strengthens us while isolation weakens? Or does Kreia not count because of her hatred for the Force itself?

[Steve-O Kreesh]

You are right JediMaster12, I am a Grey Jedi. You must be truly intune with the Force.

 

To answer your question, yes, Kreia was right in a way. Conflict can strenghten a Jedi, but only if that Jedi is strong enough deal with that conflict after the fact. A true Jedi can turn away from conflict once it has been dealt with. Kreia also said " What is a Jedi without the Force? Just a man, just a woman." Jedi are only human, and as humans, they are not perfect. That's why some Jedi can "walk within the light", and some (like me) become Grey Jedi. We are viewed as "misguided" by the Jedi council and the Sith see us as Jedi no matter what.

Then there are the Jedi that "fall to the darkside". They let conflict consume them and eventually feed upon it. IMO, those Jedi should have never been trained in the ways of the Force. Their masters should have seen the personality traits in those Jedi, and should have refused to train them. Like I said before, the Jedi council hasn't always done their job.

 

Isolation isn't the answer either. Jedi are supposed to help the weak and protect the innocent. If the Jedi didn't, we would be like the Baran Do or the Matukai. We are neither, WE are Jedi. We help those who are in need of us, whoever they may be.

 

And remember, Kreia didn't always hate the Force. She was a Jedi once and a Sith. Being cast out of both is probably the source of her hatred.

[Cygnus Q'ol]

How do we know that the Republic would have fallen if the young, restless jedi wouldn't have interfered at that particular time?

 

The Mandalorians had only taken three systems way out in the outer rim,

systems that weren't even apart of the Republic.

(Does anyone know which ones they were?)

 

The Mandalorians are masters at war, their culture is defined by it. It was a dangerously masterful stroke to lure the jedi out. A brilliant move, if you play Chess, Go, or Dijarik.

 

Unfortunatly for them, Revan was the one to answer the call.

I wonder, would things have been different if Kavar had been the one?

 

I also wonder what would have happened if the strongest and most talented of the jedi would have stayed behind and made a concerted effort with the Republic forces and the resources and approval of the jedi counsel.

 

Steve-O Kreesh, Why put the blame of jedi falling to the darkside on the masters? Masters aren't omnipotent. They can't see everything.

 

Look at Qui-gon Ginn.

Do you think he would have still had Annakin trained if he could see what was going to become of him?

If the masters can sense every little thing about a person, then why couldn't they sense Sidious standing right next to them? ...bit of a stretch.

 

Oh, and about Kreia.

I think Kreia's hatred goes a bit deeper. Kreia is tormented by her belief that she once was and still is (like all jedi) a slave of the force.

...and she is fatally jealous of the Exile's ability to not only live without it,

but become stronger for it.

[JediMaster12]

You are right JediMaster12, I am a Grey Jedi. You must be truly intune with the Force.

 

To answer your question, yes, Kreia was right in a way. Conflict can strenghten a Jedi, but only if that Jedi is strong enough deal with that conflict after the fact. A true Jedi can turn away from conflict once it has been dealt with. Kreia also said " What is a Jedi without the Force? Just a man, just a woman." Jedi are only human, and as humans, they are not perfect. That's why some Jedi can "walk within the light", and some (like me) become Grey Jedi. We are viewed as "misguided" by the Jedi council and the Sith see us as Jedi no matter what.

Then there are the Jedi that "fall to the darkside". They let conflict consume them and eventually feed upon it. IMO, those Jedi should have never been trained in the ways of the Force. Their masters should have seen the personality traits in those Jedi, and should have refused to train them. Like I said before, the Jedi council hasn't always done their job.

 

Isolation isn't the answer either. Jedi are supposed to help the weak and protect the innocent. If the Jedi didn't, we would be like the Baran Do or the Matukai. We are neither, WE are Jedi. We help those who are in need of us, whoever they may be.

 

And remember, Kreia didn't always hate the Force. She was a Jedi once and a Sith. Being cast out of both is probably the source of her hatred.

 

Yes, I am in tuned with the Force as my brother tells me. You are right about the Jedi. I have watched the prequels Ep 1-3 and I find myself noticing the arrogance of the Council concerning the Sith. I have no problems in being neutral when it comes to diplomatic affairs and seeing both sides but as a Jedi I need training. If you would become my master, I would accept your teachings. I know of a sacred river and clearing where ritual meditation is held by the hunters on my homeworld Avalon.

[Steve-O Kreesh]

To Cygnus Q'ol: Are Jedi Masters perfect? No, far from it. But as a group, they can identify potential Padawans by using their other senses, their instincts. True Masters know that you can't always rely on the Force. As people they should have good judgement on who they should train as apprentices. As supervisor at a business, wouldn't you want the best people to do the job required? Yes.

 

Your question on Qui-gon is a good one. IMO, he was to focused on the here and now. He saw Anakin as the Chosen One, and at that point and time he saw fit to have Anakin trained. Did he see the risks? No, but the council did. Yoda himself sensed much fear in young Skywalker. Mace Windu was adament in refusing to train Anakin. They sensed something not quite right with Anakin, they were right to refuse to train him. It took Obi-Wan to promise Qui-Gon to train young Skywalker, when Qui-Gon was dying. Obi-Wan then threatened the council to train Anakin with out the council's approval, which forced their hand. They were not going to let a promising young Jedi like Obi-Wan leave the order. Only then did they agree to allow Anakin to be trained.

 

Now about Darth Sidious. There are techniques to allow you to close yourself off from the Force. These techniques effectively hide yourself within the Force. By focusing inward, you can mask your Force signiture. I believe Sidious used a something similar to hide himself from the Jedi. It must be a Sith technique I'm not familar with.

 

I agree with you on Kreia. But she also loved the exile for turning away from the Force and then becoming stronger for it. I agree she was jealous of the exile, but she also loved the exile for the same reasons.

 

To JediMaster12: I could take you on as an apprentice, but before we travel to Avalon, you must first meet me here on Onderon. There is much to learn here, as I have done myself in my solitude. Plus the nearby moon of Dxun has much offer as well in lessons of the Force.

[Revan Skywalker]

You would be wrong in my opinion, Steve-o-Kreesh. The Jedi needed to be destroyed, so did the Sith, and Kreai did what needed to be done, not willingly, no, but the Force works in mysterious ways. The Force created her, it seems, to hate the Force, and to attempt to kill off the Jedi and the Sith. I am currently learning about the White Current,a different part of the Force, and it seems that if you master it, you could see clearly into the future. The Light and Dark sides allow you to see dimly, not clearly. Jacen Solo knew this, and I see him with higher respect than Luke Skywalker or Revan. Steve-o-Keesh, I will learn about the Force with you, if you will allow me to, because my view is imperfect. It always will be. But with further study, I may be able to grasp its full nature. My sig says May the Force guide you! because the Force is always with you,t hough it might not always guide you.

[JediMaster12]

@Steve-O-Kreesh: I will travel there on my ship The LoreSeeker

 

@Revan Skywalker: Just remember the Force is in all of us. To be able to see the flaws is not a sign of clouded view. Remeber TSL how they were quick to punish the Exile. To me that holovid was not really a trial more like a character bashing. I guess I am us to a trial by jury kind of thing. What I saw there was nothing more than an attempt to get things done and over with.

[Cygnus Q'ol]

I have a problem with the way the counsel went about the Exile's so called trial. Jedi Master12 is right. That really didn't seem like a trial.

They all ganged up on the Exile, spit their un-researched accusations, took the lightsaber, and sent him packing without so much as a explanation or goodbye.

 

(In the movies)The counsel on Coruscant seemed to at least try to understand the threats they faced before they went into action.

...sending Kenobi on fact finding missions like Geonosis and such.

Like finding Dooku and hunting down Grievious.

 

Why didn't they at least try to understand what happened with the Exile?

I may be wrong, but I don't think any of those masters were at Malachor.

Nor did they investigate afterwards.

It just didn't add up to what my thoughts on the intelligence of the counsel really was.

 

In KotOR they acted too slow and Revan could wait no longer. Either they really were acting too slow, or their teachings weren't good enough to have instilled enough discipline to check Revan's actions.

 

In TSL, they acted too fast without thinking.

...almost as if they were in fear.

 

What would Yoda have done with the Exile?

What about Windu? Would they have acted as brash and ignorant?

[JediMaster12]

Also remember that Zez-Kai Ell said something along the lines insteading of trying to understand why the Exile did as he did they punished him instead. That sounded like regret and remember he said he was Jedi no longer. Could that be a hint that he took a leaf out of Jolee's book? What about Kavar? He knew about war himself having fought in what was it Exar Kun? Anyway Kavar seemed to understand better the choices the Exile made but he may have been driven by fear.

 

I think you were right in the fact that the Jedi may have acted in fear with the Exile. It seemed to show again at the final meeting on Dantooine. Fear does tend to make a person act rashly without weighing the consequences.

[Steve-O Kreesh]

To Revan Skywalker: I'm sorry you disagree, but this is a forum, so I'm not surprised.

If you look at it from a certain point of view, Kreia did destroy the Jedi and the Sith. Kreia taught Revan, Sion, and Nihilis. All three killed many Jedi. She taught the exile, who effectively killed the Sith in known galaxy. He killed Sion and Nihilis and their followers. Kreia also corrupted Aeris, which the exile could choose to kill. Kreia herself killed the last three council members still alive. All that was left was the exile, the "Lost Jedi", and Kreia. It was up to the exile to start over, whether to rebuild the Jedi or the Sith was your choice.

 

I too hold much respect for Jacen Solo, he truly is what a Jedi is meant to be. He has an understanding of the Force.

[JediMaster12]

I never thought of it that way Steve-O-Kreesh. Jacen Solo I'm guessing he was different from the start from his twin sister Jaina. From what I understand, he can see that there are no definite lines. Like you he sees more grey. As for Kreia, she was a manipulative witch trying to destroy the Force because she hates it yet she can't bear the thought of it being lost. Sounds like she has psychological issues and needs a therapist but how can someone be like that? Did it have to do with the betrayals of Sion and Nilhilis?