How could the CIS lose?

[Redtech]

Well, this ain't realistic. Anyway, as RL shows, you can draft as many troops from as many countries as you want, but quality goes down the pan!

 

It makes good cinema and lets Lucas play with sci-fi stuff as he pretends he's an expert on robotics and cloning. Heck a single suicide bomber would wipe the senate. 9/11 x1000 methinks.

I'll arrogantly quote myself for truth.

[MachineCult]

its all been said here im just gonna but it in my own words. The Droids lost on two fronts. The clones even though there numbers were low are better soldiers. They have insticts and feelings. They also in a phitness perspective have much more flexibility. But also they were under control of the emperor so thats how the CIS lost. Its seen in the Revenge of the Sith.

One thing you do notice about the Battle Droids is that they don't take cover or attempt to stay out of the firing line, they just walk forward and shoot, one think that would def. make them more susceptible to getting blown away than the Clones.

[06protoguy]

One thing you do notice about the Battle Droids is that they don't take cover or attempt to stay out of the firing line, they just walk forward and shoot, one think that would def. make them more susceptible to getting blown away than the Clones.

 

True, Very true. you make a good point. They tried to use numbers instead of stradgey. (Also seen in The Lord of the Rings) But in the end all it took was one man.

[boinga1]

One thing you do notice about the Battle Droids is that they don't take cover or attempt to stay out of the firing line, they just walk forward and shoot, one think that would def. make them more susceptible to getting blown away than the Clones.

 

Not true at all. I know in TPM, you can see droids ducking under cover in the Theed hallways. Frankly, there is very little cover available in most of the areas that the droids fight (hangars, Geonosis, even Utapau). Obviously, there is no way that the figures given could reflect reality, 200 to 1 odds would be insumountable.

[06protoguy]

boinga is right i completly forgot about those parts. and he is right about the lack of cover. but i am staying with my decision that in a battle clones will win,

[Kurgan]

Until ROTS, the tactics of the Clone troopers was really no better than that of the droids. And in ROTS we see them taking HEAVY losses in combat against droids.

 

What shows them having success in AOTC is the element of surprise and their big guns that seem to be able to blow up droids in one shot. Of course droids can kill the clones in one shot as well, with weaker guns, so there you go.

 

It's all well and good to say that Clones are superior to droids (the only evidence for that we have in the movies is Lama Su's word for it, but he could just be exaggerating due to pride and to promote his product), but if the EU (Prior to this most recent retcon) is to be believed, they still should have lost, because there's no way that a few million soldiers can win a war against "quintillions" of soldiers even if they are slightly inferior, or even if every clone kills 2,000 droids each (even quadrillions is insanely impossible odds).

 

Still, even with the retcon, the Clone Wars turn into a tiny skirmish, not a galactic scale war as the movies depict them and we're supposed to believe. And if Clones make up such a tiny portion of the forces involved, why name the entire war after them (as Yoda does after the first battle)?

 

Given the EU situation (pre retcon), the CIS losing beggared belief, despite Palpatine's meddling and alleged Seperatist incompetance and alleged Clone soldier l33tness...

 

Now it just makes the war look pointless and inconsequential, far from the epic scale it was always intended to be. I think this is a solid example of EU writers basically all but ruining something cool from the movies. Oh well...

 

 

I mean, watching the movies and just forgetting the EU stuff while you do, you get the impression that the two sides are pretty evenly matched, with just some strengths and weaknesses on both sides with fairly even numbers (we just have to assume that "1 unit does not equal 1 individual soldier, otherwise the droid factories if they're all like Geonosis would far outproduce the Republic in short order), and what REALLY changed things was that Palpatine had "fixed" the sides and was playing them both against each other by controlling the top leader (Dooku) and manipulating everyone. THAT was believable, this other stuff that came later... not very much so.

[Prime]

Now it just makes the war look pointless and inconsequential, far from the epic scale it was always intended to be. I think this is a solid example of EU writers basically all but ruining something cool from the movies. Oh well...

Again, all of which could have been avoided if the original number had just been changed.

[Kurgan]

In the movies (millions of "units") or in the EU literature (3.x million)?

[jawathehutt]

The rep. in my eyes which arent very in tune with EU, had the vehicle advantage

i mean atte, that wheele swamp thing and other stuff while the CIS had hail fire, spider and aat

[Redtech]

The number of ground units getting owned is pretty high as well. You see an AT-TE blown away with one Hailfire missile on Geonosis and a UT-AT being killed by a "giant uber virus droid-looking-thing" on Mygeeto. A lot of clones would get wiped by one vehicle being wrecked, but numerically, each functional droid is a unit by it's own right (despite them being inert in BF1/2).

[fuzzyfreaker]

Wow.... Kargath is the only person I recongnize in this topic... it's been too long...

 

Anyway, if we are getting on the topic of vehicles of the different opposing sides, i'd have to say that the Republic's vehicles are far superior. Droid Starfighters are have little armor, not very many weapons, and as far as I know they have no shields. Basically they're mainly like cannon fodder... such as TIE fighters are in the OT. Face it, preprogrammed flight paths can't combat the sheer force of ships piloted by multiple clones, they just can make better strategical choices... (Stealth anyone? Crappy movie...) proving to be a more formidible force. This was even more confirmed in the battle between Thrawn and the Trade Federation in Outbound Flight.

 

Land assault? Same thing... massive amounts of hail-fire droids and other vehicles arn't a match for clone-piloted vehicles.

 

EDIT: Oh, I see Prime too... guess that's two people I know...

[Kurgan]

The Republic fighters don't seem so great in ROTS. The Jedi fighters don't seem to have any shields at all... or hyperdrive for that matter, while the droid fighters are equipped with missiles and buzz droids and can transform and crawl around on capital ship hulls...

[Prime]

In the movies (millions of "units") or in the EU literature (3.x million)?

The EU number.

[Redtech]

Anyway, who exactly is controlling the overall strategy? You don't neede geniuses who can fight, just someone smart to lead them. Think Hannibal, Carthage had a PATHETIC army of mercenaries who still managed to crush the disiplined and millitarily superior Roman army.

[Prime]

But any real life example of victory against greater you throw out are not of the 3 to 2,000,000,000 variety.

[MachineCult]

Anyway, who exactly is controlling the overall strategy? You don't neede geniuses who can fight, just someone smart to lead them. Think Hannibal, Carthage had a PATHETIC army of mercenaries who still managed to crush the disiplined and millitarily superior Roman army.

You saw that programme on BBC 1 the other week didn't you. Lol, it was funny seeing Dr Bashir from DS9 as The Carthaginian general.

[Prime]

An interesting take on the whole number debate and the craziness of SW fandom.

 

Let the flames begin.

[Redtech]

But any real life example of victory against greater you throw out are not of the 3 to 2,000,000,000 variety.

I was siding with the CIS against the "Droids are too stupid to win" idealology.

 

---------------

MachineCult, I did see it, I'm a Rome:total War fan, after all... I fear that he might be getting typcast as he might have "arab" roots.

 

He did good in that role though, despite the small BBC budget.

 

----------------

An interesting take on the whole number debate and the craziness of SW fandom.

 

Let the flames begin.

More literary Bukkake methinks.

[Kurgan]

Or rather, let no flaming commence.

[Darth Alec]

I liked the movie at the end....

[Prime]

Or rather, let no flaming commence.

I mean on that page.

[KyleOfHarpenden]

The CIS lose there leaders and because they have the IQ of a 4 year old

[Darth Alec]

But the CIS should have won within 30-100 days. 3 years is way to long for 3 million clones to hold of an army millions/billions times its size.

[PoiuyWired]

I think fatal flaws is deliberately built into CIS so they would be a lot less efficient than what it should be.

 

CIS is designed to wear out the Jedis, and at the same time, make the clones and Palpy look like a hero.

[Darth Xenus]

Right, one reason why Palpatine would have prefered the clones to win: if the CIS was going to win, then they would have to openly take down every single Jedi, taking enormous losses, because the Jedi would be expecting the droids to attack them. They didn't know the clones would attack them, that is the only reason that the Jedi were wiped out (apart from Vader, but Sidious+Dooku could have both done the same themselves). And if Sidous had REALLY wanted to take the galaxy by force (as would have been the case with the CIS) he could have quite easily remade the Sith Order on some remote Outer Rim planet that the Republic didn't bother with...