Saber system suggestions

[da_chimp]

i have a suggestion now or maybe well 2

 

first allow the dual sabers to attack and gaurd at the same time they take more dp dmg as a draw back but can deal dmg while being attacked so you can at least try and defend your self from 2 people at once

 

and second make it so that with the doublesided you can parry by going with or against the attack coming at you but cost more FP to swing for an attack

 

remember these are just suggestions to make these 2 types of sabers more different then they already are.

[Lathain Valtiel]

Actually I think I'm going to leave the server on Enhanced for saturday as well. I'll post the news right now.

 

 

...Oh nooooooooooo.

 

God damn it.

[JRHockney*]

...Oh nooooooooooo.

 

God damn it.

 

[Kyle Kelasheski]

Hello All,

 

I need some help getting on OJP E's servers. As I said before, I've only played JA online twice before, so setting it up is a bit strange to me. Especially with what I experienced last night.

 

I tried entering as a New Favorite and as a New Server the following addresses:

65.99.206.101:29070

and

72.36.250.36:29070

 

Each time I entered them in they would NOT be listed on the main menu. Why? Is there a step I'm missing? I thought that it would be as easy as typing into the little window the new addresses and then okaying/saving it, but since no new data was displayed on the main menu, then I'm assuming that I'm missing something. Any advice?

 

Also, what time do most of you start looking for matches? If you could supply your play times adjusted for the Eastern time zone I could try to coordinate my appearance for when most of you are online.

 

And "Yes," TeamSpeak is an AMAZING utility, especially when one considers that it's totally FREE. It was the ONLY way to play Infiltration, since team work was absolutely essential for survival. I'm guessing that for OJP E it would be primarily used to discuss design ideas, and of course for talking smack. lol

 

My only worry is that my mic has not been working lately on my system. I have to update my SoundBlaster driver just in case that's the issue.

 

Have to go now! Hope to see you all online soon!

 

Yours,

 

Kyle

Feb. 18, 2006

 

 

.

[Tapela]

Shift + Tilde key (~), brings down console then type connect and hit CTRL+V which will paste what you copied which will be the IP. So then it will just start connecting and take you to load screen after you hit enter.

[razorace]

i have a suggestion now or maybe well 2

Those are interesting ideas which would be cool, but I think it would really unbalance the dual/staff sabers. They're already a bit too powerful.

 

Each time I entered them in they would NOT be listed on the main menu. Why? Is there a step I'm missing? I thought that it would be as easy as typing into the little window the new addresses and then okaying/saving it, but since no new data was displayed on the main menu, then I'm assuming that I'm missing something. Any advice?

1. Make sure that your firewall is allowing JKA to access the internet.

2. Press the "Get New List" and/or the "Refresh" buttons after entering in a new favorite.

 

Anyway, everyone, let's please try to stay on topic here. Off topic stuff needs to go in other more approprate threads or in new threads. I check the forums regularly so new threads WILL be seen.

 

Kyle, if you have additional problems or want to discuss the use of TeamSpeak some more, please take it to the Scheduling Thread.

[razorace]

Good news, I've figured out why the staff/dual sabers were causing more DP damage than they should. There was a bug in the bouncing bug so start animations weren't bouncing but they were draining DP. In addition, I've discovered some bounces are supposed to be using return anims instead of bounces and as such, I'll to change the code a little so that returns can be used as slow bounces.

[razorace]

Unfortunately, it looks like the bug fixes weren't enough to solve all our dual/staff balancing issues. By using the bots, which all act like the same person in terms of fighting skill, to experiment, I've come up with following to balance them out:

 

Duals:

- Increased saber attack FP cost to 3.

 

Staffs:

- DP cost for saber blocks increased from 50% standard cost to 75% standard cost.

- Increased saber attack FP cost to 4.

- Increased transition/attack fake FP cost to 4.

 

This does appear to balance out the various sabers so that the dual/staff users don't have a clear advantage. However, I realize that these are pretty drastic changes so I'm welcome to alternative suggestions.

 

BTW, I did try out the sabers myself after making the tweaks and I can safely say that the dual/staff sabers aren't impossible to use after the changes. While the FP drain is pretty high, it appears to be super easy to parry while using the staff saber.

[lightofdarkness]

In my playing experience, Dual Sabers are easily beaten with a single saber. Easily parried too. The staff is the one with the big balance issues. That and the blue dashing rising slash (you know, the one the Reborn spam in SP), which has some clipping bugs. It can become a one hit killer (DP and FP seem to be no help) and moves at ridiculous speed at times. It especially blows ehn you've been knocked down, as even kicking towards the opponent (force assisted get up) will get you killed if they initiate the move. I've also noticed camera bugs when being thrown. On the beta server I was thrown by a mind tricking player (horribly spammed the ability to melee while invisible, might need to be balanced a bit better too). Anyway, after he'd thrown me I was off screen for about 2 seconds, then the camera swictehd again and I was on screen, though I was looking at my feet on the ground and when I attempted a get up (which involved kick jumping forwards TOWARDS the screen, looked very cool and dramatic for a bug ), I was killed by that blue lunge again. Fun times. All in all though, I found that online the saber system really does shine as much as offline, if not more so. Congrats, you've managed to create the most intuitive and accurate lightsaber combat system in any game to date!

[razorace]

Please spread each item/issue you bring up over different sentences, paragraphes, or bullets. Right now, it's very hard to read what you're trying to say. I appreciate the feedback thou. To address your issues...

 

1. I agree. The dual sabers were much easier to balance than the staffs. However, my experiments indicated that the dual sabers needed a little balancing so that's why I tweaked them a little.

 

2. The "blue dashing rising slash"? You mean the blue lunge special? Remember that you don't have the Dodge ability while in mid-air. As such, if a player slashes you while you're getup kicking, you'll probably die.

 

3. Camera bug while being thrown? Please be more specific. Which grapple move are you referring to and what sort of camera bug are you having?

 

4. So, you're saying that a player can do grapple moves while still remaining mind tricked?

 

5. Thank you. I'm glad you enjoy it.

[razorace]

JRHockney, you'll be glad to hear that I've implimented the slow bounce/saber impact->mishap concept that we kicked around a bit earlier. However, I should note that it's pretty hard to do vs single saber opponents since all the bounces/returns move the player away from the attack. This is good since we don't want this sort of thing to happen with unskilled attackers.

[JRHockney*]

JRHockney, you'll be glad to hear that I've implimented the slow bounce/saber impact->mishap concept that we kicked around a bit earlier. However, I should note that it's pretty hard to do vs single saber opponents since all the bounces/returns move the player away from the attack. This is good since we don't want this sort of thing to happen with unskilled attackers.

 

Awsome!! : Yeah I figured it might be harder with real opponents. You might want ot modify the Tabbots to move away more when they get slow bounced if possible as well, just to make them harder.

 

I hope go go for the less FP cost for cartwheel, walljump and less FP costing backflip aswell as the absorb kick with backflip next. I sure that backflip one will be tricky.

 

Also, I just figured out how to modify saber trails!!! I'll email you a version of the "Relatively Perfect Saber: mod that I have made several glow and trail modifications to.

[razorace]

You might want ot modify the Tabbots to move away more when they get slow bounced if possible as well, just to make them harder.

I don't think it's nessicary, it's hard to do even when they do what they currently do.

 

I hope go go for the less FP cost for cartwheel, walljump and less FP costing backflip aswell as the absorb kick with backflip next. I sure that backflip one will be tricky.

Oh, I suppose I could look into that stuff next.

 

Also, I just figured out how to modify saber trails!!! I'll email you a version of the "Relatively Perfect Saber: mod that I have made several glow and trail modifications to.

Ok, sure. I'll take a look at it.

[da_chimp]

you dont think that kicking sideways while blocking would be too unfair would you i mean it would really help survival in power duels for the guy on his own

 

 

ive been messing with the g_saberanimspeed, g_forceregentime G_dodgeregentime and ive found a really good setup which makes it more fun while not making fights go for exeedingly long, while making it possible for a single person to hold off or if there kinda skilled defeat 2 enemys

 

g_saberanimespeed 1.25

g_dodgeregentime 500

g_forceregentime 250

 

i've pound these settings the most enjoyable for me

[JRHockney*]

you dont think that kicking sideways while blocking would be too unfair would you i mean it would really help survival in power duels for the guy on his own

 

Hmm, maybe. However I would say that the side that the person is kicking from should still be exposed to slashes. Even then, it might be hard to get the hit detection to where it is fair and not spammable. If you can block completely, that would lead to excessive spamming. Half my kicks end up being side kicks anyways just to confuse and my opponent.

 

g_saberanimespeed 1.25

g_dodgeregentime 500

g_forceregentime 250

 

I'll have to try that.

[razorace]

I've already seen some overuse of the kicks even with the current system. I don't think we could allow kicks and blocking without having the melee nuts run wild with it.

[lightofdarkness]

Yeah, I meant Kyle_boss's special throw move. In more technical terms, after the throw was initiated the camera turned 180 degrees in the opposite direction of the player model (in my case, I was looking at a wall). It then turned again (180 degrees) to where it was before the throw finished but my model was far away with it's feet facing the camera, I then kicked towards the screen to get up. Probably some stupid lag related bug.

 

And yes, I was referring to the blue lunge special.

 

I was referring to the fact that melee while mind-tricking is a tad cheap and a little imbalanced. A hit should reveal a mind-tricking player IMO (who could focus that well after being shot or glanced by a saber?).

[JRHockney*]

I just found a bug. I noticed that I tend to get stunned alot when my DP is still a little over 50%. It usually happens between 50% and 60% DP. You might want to check the probabilities or the DP scale (or whatever) again for this especially now that parrying is harder to do (which allows for multiple hits on someone who have been forced into a block). Also because of this, you might what to make stuns caused at 40% FP rather than 50% or a little better leeway.

 

Question: how is the idea about hitting the opponents saber in a slow drawback going to affect dual and staff considering how much easier it will be to hit those styles?

 

Problem: this is kind of unrelated to saber system stuff but I have been having problems making the dismemberment work. Even trying multiple dismemberment mods still hasn't done anything. I have a feeling is related to a another mod that is conflicting, but I have no idea which one it could be. Any ideas?

 

Btw Razor, I made the saber glow trail much brighter in the near the core in that saber mod that I set you and resently made some change to the core blur itself. It seems to blend together a lot better now and a little better at low FPS.

[razorace]

Yeah, I meant Kyle_boss's special throw move. In more technical terms, after the throw was initiated the camera turned 180 degrees in the opposite direction of the player model (in my case, I was looking at a wall). It then turned again (180 degrees) to where it was before the throw finished but my model was far away with it's feet facing the camera, I then kicked towards the screen to get up. Probably some stupid lag related bug.

If I recall, I had to do some weird yaw hacking to get the animations to sync up properly. I imagine I could fix that if it's a major problem, but it would be a hassle to do.

 

And yes, I was referring to the blue lunge special.

I haven't had any problems with it. the blue lunge is blocked as long as the player has non-critically low DP/FP. If the player is critically low on DP/FP, they will die. It's an intentional finishing move.

 

I was referring to the fact that melee while mind-tricking is a tad cheap and a little imbalanced. A hit should reveal a mind-tricking player IMO (who could focus that well after being shot or glanced by a saber?).

How is it cheap? You only get one punch/kick/grapple in before you decloak, right?

 

As for new ideas, I was thinking about how we could retool Rage. My thought was that maybe Rage should dramatically boost your DP/FP regen rates but also keep track of your fighting status (probably in terms of your parries/hits vs the number of hits/parries made on the player), if the player starts to lose, the player panics/losses faith, takes a DP/FP hit, and has reduced regen rates. The idea being that we're simultating a person's rage.

 

As seen in the movies, Dark Siders have a hard time raging when they're being emotionally confronted or being beaten by a suprior fighter. In addition, this would probably help skilled Dark Siders take on multiple opponents at once.

[razorace]

I just found a bug. I noticed that I tend to get stunned alot when my DP is still a little over 50%. It usually happens between 50% and 60% DP. You might want to check the probabilities or the DP scale (or whatever) again for this especially now that parrying is harder to do (which allows for multiple hits on someone who have been forced into a block). Also because of this, you might what to make stuns caused at 40% FP rather than 50% or a little better leeway.

That's due to the way the system works. The Block DP is deduced before the stun is performed so in reality any hit that reduces you to 50 DP will leave you open to stun moves. I guess I've been doing it this way since realistically, you spend the effort to block an attack weither you are successful or not. Besides, if mishaps didn't cost DP, you'd actually want them TO happen.

 

I suppose I could reduce the DP threshold a little lower so that you can't normally get stunned while your DP is visually above 50, but that would involve reducing the DP threshold down below 50 as much as the largest DP damage move (which is currently 20). It's really up to you guys.

 

Question: how is the idea about hitting the opponents saber in a slow drawback going to affect dual and staff considering how much easier it will be to hit those styles?

Staffs/duals have something to fear now? Seriously thou, that might help balalnce the duals/staffs.

 

Problem: this is kind of unrelated to saber system stuff but I have been having problems making the dismemberment work.

Don't use dismemberment mods, they're only designed for SP. Anyway, all you need to set you g_dismember and cg_dismember levels. The OJP_cvars.txt covers what those cvars do.

 

Btw Razor, I made the saber glow trail much brighter in the near the core in that saber mod that I set you and resently made some change to the core blur itself. It seems to blend together a lot better now and a little better at low FPS.

Uh, ok. Sorry if I'm not totally entheraled by the saber blade issues. I'm of the opinion that the saber blades in the movie varied enough that there's a level of creative license that one can take with the blades and still be "right". I mean, I haven't heard any complaints about how the blaster bolts in the game don't look like the ones in original trilogy. As such, I'm pretty happy with the saber blades as is.

[Vruki Salet]

Well now that you mention it the blaster bolt thing is a big gripe of mine... lol! but why complain? If I don't like it I'll learn how to change it.

 

I'd leave the whole blade shape, trail graphic, sound thing alone since practically everyone knows they can just stick in whatever clientside pk3 saber-style mod they want and see what they like on their own screen. There's no need to make some kind of "official OJP saber shape" or something packaged with OJP.

[razorace]

Yeah, I think that's going to be the official OJP policy until we come up with a blade style/sound selector system..which I don't know when I'll do that.

 

JRHockney, I've fixed the FP costs for the cartwheels and the backflips like you asked for. It will be in the next release.

[JRHockney*]

I suppose I could reduce the DP threshold a little lower so that you can't normally get stunned while your DP is visually above 50, but that would involve reducing the DP threshold down below 50 as much as the largest DP damage move (which is currently 20). It's really up to you guys.

 

Hmm, I think that I would be for reducing it a bit more. It just does not seem like there is a whole lot of leeway right now and if you get combo chained while you've been forced into a block, you pretty much screwed. What does everyone else think?

 

I have yet to see anyone use the red DFA very effectively and it doesn't seem to do much DP damage when it is. Because of this I think the DP damage should be increased from what ever it is with that and maybe the desann DFA.

 

I'd leave the whole blade shape, trail graphic, sound thing alone since practically everyone knows they can just stick in whatever clientside pk3 saber-style mod they want and see what they like on their own screen. There's no need to make some kind of "official OJP saber shape" or something packaged with OJP.

 

Yeah fair enough. I do think that some decent mods should be suggested intially though until a selector can be made (which I don't think is too high on the priority list.

 

JRHockney, I've fixed the FP costs for the cartwheels and the backflips like you asked for. It will be in the next release.

 

Excellent, that should help alot. I do still kind of like the idea of the wall springs (where you press jump and the direction of the wall when you standing next to it) costing less as well because its a cool and strategic move. Have you been able to also implement that cool idea you had about using backflip to absorb a kick yet? Thats pure gold in my opinion.

 

Also, have you or anyone else thought of any new special moves for the the styles that don't have DFA or any special characteristics. I'm a little to busy to think at the moment, but I'll do my best aswell.

[JRHockney*]

Oooh, I just had an interesting idea to make the single saber styles differ a bit (that doesnt involve DP damage differences......this time).

 

You could make it so that the single saber styles have differing FP costs for doing special moves and power fakes as well as differing FP and DP% for when mishaps and stuns occur.

 

It could work like this: Red style (the heaviest) would have the least FP cost of special moves and fakes (other than dual sabers) but it would have mishaps occur at 70 FP and stuns occur around 70% or so DP threshold.

 

Tavions style (the lightest) would have the most FP cost for special moves and fakes but have mishaps occur at 30 FP and stuns at around 30% DP threshold.

 

You can fill in the in between yourself logically. This would be an interesting substitute for differing DP damages and still give the inpression of offensive and defensive styles.

 

 

Also, here's a quick idea for more variation in the single saber styles that doesn't involve searching around for new animations for new special move (which would be cool too):

 

Basically, the 3 single saber styles (that don't have an extra special move like desann and red) will have one of their special moves cause slow bounces (or pauses, mishaps, or stuns depending on the DP or FP of the opponent and maybe do some FP damage along with the DP damage. The specials moves based on style would vary like this:

 

Tavions: Rollstab

Blue: Lunge

Yellow: Arial move

 

I also think the desann and Red DFAs should have the same characteristic as well. I have this idea set up so that the benefits of a special move can at least be a little familiar based of on the style they can from (well, sort of). It would be your call if you want them to do more DP damage as well. Not that implementing this idea isn't your call in this first place!

 

Oh, one more: Bring back (or in) kick flips! Since they would be more risky and costly than just regular kicks, they couldn't be spammed. In fact, they should do more FP damage than regular kicks. They could also be absorb by backfliping like the regular kick if you implement that idea.

 

Here's a quick question: You said you implemented the hitting slow bounces idea which is great. Did you make a difference between hitting it with power fakes as opposed to regular swings such as more DP damage or a bigger mishap or something?

 

OK, thats it for now. Hope you like the suggestions.

[razorace]

Hmm, I think that I would be for reducing it a bit more. It just does not seem like there is a whole lot of leeway right now and if you get combo chained while you've been forced into a block, you pretty much screwed. What does everyone else think?

mmm, we will see. I think a lot of it is personal taste really.

 

Have you been able to also implement that cool idea you had about using backflip to absorb a kick yet?

Not yet, but I think I'm much closer after figuring out where the code handles the backflips.

 

Also, have you or anyone else thought of any new special moves for the the styles that don't have DFA or any special characteristics. I'm a little to busy to think at the moment, but I'll do my best aswell.

DFAs don't do anything special at the moment. I'll have to work on that.