Saber system suggestions

[razorace]

Oh, one more: Bring back (or in) kick flips! Since they would be more risky and costly than just regular kicks, they couldn't be spammed. In fact, they should do more FP damage than regular kicks. They could also be absorb by backfliping like the regular kick if you implement that idea.

I don't see that happening. It's just not a realistic move.

 

Here's a quick question: You said you implemented the hitting slow bounces idea which is great. Did you make a difference between hitting it with power fakes as opposed to regular swings such as more DP damage or a bigger mishap or something?

Other than the DP damage, there's no difference between doing an attack fake or a normal attack in that situation.

[Sazabi]

is it possible to make kicking, ydfas etc more controllable? now if you do lets say ydfa you are like forced to stand for awhile. probably what i really want is jk2-like control.

hmmm but why u should think about doing it? well you said yourself already that kickflips arent realistic. now what i think is that when you are paralysed after doing ydfa etc well thats just unrealistic too you arent smashed in to wall or something so why u should suffer that paralyse...

[razorace]

ydfa? Wha? I assume you're talking about the yellow overhead flip special? I agree that the overhead flips aren't very controllable but I'm not really sure how we could improve them.

 

As for kicks, I don't think there's really much that can be done to improve them without getting new kick animations.

[Vruki Salet]

BOTH_LK_ST_DL_T_SB_1_W has a cool kick anim but when I try to use it it always ends with this weird turn to the side that's not actually in the anim.

[JRHockney*]

I don't see that happening. It's just not a realistic move.

 

Not realistic? Sure, an acrobatic swordsman probable would try to use it in a real life fight, but these are Jedi were talking about. You do realize I'm talking about the flip kick that was apart of base saber combat, right? (....unless that was JA+.....Hmmm)

 

Other than the DP damage, there's no difference between doing an attack fake or a normal attack in that situation.

 

Hmm, Ok that works; however it might be worth considering in the future for variety's sake, maybe like regular hit causes knockdown and power fake causes disarm or something like that.

 

 

Btw, What did you think of the other ideas I mentioned. These too be specific:

 

Oooh, I just had an interesting idea to make the single saber styles differ a bit (that doesnt involve DP damage differences......this time).

 

You could make it so that the single saber styles have differing FP costs for doing special moves and power fakes as well as differing FP and DP% for when mishaps and stuns occur.

 

It could work like this: Red style (the heaviest) would have the least FP cost of special moves and fakes (other than dual sabers) but it would have mishaps occur at 70 FP and stuns occur around 70% or so DP threshold.

 

Tavions style (the lightest) would have the most FP cost for special moves and fakes but have mishaps occur at 30 FP and stuns at around 30% DP threshold.

 

You can fill in the in between yourself logically. This would be an interesting substitute for differing DP damages and still give the inpression of offensive and defensive styles.

 

 

Also, here's a quick idea for more variation in the single saber styles that doesn't involve searching around for new animations for new special move (which would be cool too):

 

Basically, the 3 single saber styles (that don't have an extra special move like desann and red) will have one of their special moves cause slow bounces (or pauses, mishaps, or stuns depending on the DP or FP of the opponent and maybe do some FP damage along with the DP damage. The specials moves based on style would vary like this:

 

Tavions: Rollstab

Blue: Lunge

Yellow: Arial move

 

I also think the desann and Red DFAs should have the same characteristic as well. I have this idea set up so that the benefits of a special move can at least be a little familiar based of on the style they can from (well, sort of). It would be your call if you want them to do more DP damage as well. Not that implementing this idea isn't your call in this first place!

 

If you not for differing DP damages, this might be a good alternative "pro and con" idea that works with the direction you seem to be taking this system (I think).

[razorace]

Not realistic? Sure, an acrobatic swordsman probable would try to use it in a real life fight, but these are Jedi were talking about. You do realize I'm talking about the flip kick that was apart of base saber combat, right? (....unless that was JA+.....Hmmm)

You're thinking of JKO or JA+. The flip kick isn't in basejka. Anyway, I just don't think it's a viable move for even a Jedi when battling another person with a light stick that cuts thru everything.

 

Hmm, Ok that works; however it might be worth considering in the future for variety's sake, maybe like regular hit causes knockdown and power fake causes disarm or something like that.

That's an interesting idea. We might want to try something like that in the future.

 

If you not for differing DP damages, this might be a good alternative "pro and con" idea that works with the direction you seem to be taking this system (I think).

I'm still thinking about it. I'm currently leaning towards my original idea of just using the mishap percentages as the balancing factor instead of the thresholds since I think the thresholds might need to be reserved for balancing the dual/staff sabers. We will see.

 

New Idea. I was watching the Dooku fight in Episode 3 and I came up with a new idea that I think might help with the issue of fighting multiple players at once. My idea is to set the saber bahavior to count anything that hits a player while they're performing a parry to be parried. This way a skilled player could use parries in a gang-up situation to push back multiple players at once and then be able to act.

[JRHockney*]

I'm still thinking about it. I'm currently leaning towards my original idea of just using the mishap percentages as the balancing factor instead of the thresholds since I think the thresholds might need to be reserved for balancing the dual/staff sabers. We will see.

 

The only thing I don't like about the mishap percentages is that they don't stress offense and defense enough and they seem kind of random and unstructured. You could change the general thresholds to where dual has the highest (more than red) and staff has the lowest (below tavions) and take away the double DP value and double FP costs for swings. That would still make them the best offensively (dual) and defensively (staff). If this become ths case, it might be wise to immune to slow bounce hitting mishaps until a certain FP or DP level.

 

New Idea. I was watching the Dooku fight in Episode 3 and I came up with a new idea that I think might help with the issue of fighting multiple players at once. My idea is to set the saber bahavior to count anything that hits a player while they're performing a parry to be parried. This way a skilled player could use parries in a gang-up situation to push back multiple players at once and then be able to act.

 

Hmm, interesting idea. Although how would the block animaitons work with that? In a situation where two saberist hit a parrier almost at the time, would the parrier switch animations really fast? Not doing so might take away from the movie realism of this idea.

[razorace]

The only thing I don't like about the mishap percentages is that they don't stress offense and defense enough and they seem kind of random and unstructured. You could change the general thresholds to where dual has the highest (more than red) and staff has the lowest (below tavions) and take away the double DP value and double FP costs for swings. That would still make them the best offensively (dual) and defensively (staff). If this become ths case, it might be wise to immune to slow bounce hitting mishaps until a certain FP or DP level.

You got a point. I'll have to think about it.

 

Hmm, interesting idea. Although how would the block animaitons work with that? In a situation where two saberist hit a parrier almost at the time, would the parrier switch animations really fast? Not doing so might take away from the movie realism of this idea.

It seems to work alright based on my testing. As for the animations, the previous animation is already running so it's not look it doesn't look right.

 

In other news, someone attacked the OJP repository and deleted all the files. Fortunately, we recover a backup copy but it will take a while before I can figure things out. But it does mean that I won't be able to update the repository with new code for a while.

[Lathain Valtiel]

What? Damn.

[JRHockney*]

Arrgh, thats just wrong. People who do that are sick. I was hoping to finally take a look at the new code soon and compare it to base for learning purposes. I hope it doesn't take too much work on your part to get it back.

 

I got it!! It's someone from the MB staff!! They know that we'll soon have a better saber system and their slowly sabotaging OJP!!!! LOL Yeah right.

 

If this become ths case, it might be wise to immune to slow bounce hitting mishaps until a certain FP or DP level.

 

Arrgh, what am I, retarded!! I meant that it might be wise to make the staff (only) immune to slow bounce hitting mishaps until a certain point in order to make it better defensively in this case. Maybe since the DP stuns don't occur until around 25% with staff, make hitting the slow bounce mishaps occur around 50 or 60% DP.

[razorace]

Well, to be honest, it could have been a mistake. Diane20 has posted on the forums asking other questions and it's possible that it was just a mistake on his/her part.

[razorace]

So, I've noticed that the friendlyfire cvar isn't currently working for saber damage in Enhanced. Should I fix it so that when friendlyfire is off friendly sabers pass thru each other with no harm or should friendly saber still cause blocks and bounces even if they don't do damage? Opinions?

[JRHockney*]

So, I've noticed that the friendlyfire cvar isn't currently working for saber damage in Enhanced. Should I fix it so that when friendlyfire is off friendly sabers pass thru each other with no harm or should friendly saber still cause blocks and bounces even if they don't do damage? Opinions?

 

Bounce! Bounce!!! BOUNCE!!! I SAY!!! It's more realistic that way.

[lightofdarkness]

I agree with the dark rage concept, it also makes up for the Sith having no heal (Jedi tries to heal because he's taken a hard swing, Sith counters by fighting with extra prejudice, giving the jedi no room to heal).

As well as that, however, have you thought about making a style that is suited to fighting two or more saberists at once? Even if it's based off of a current stance, I feel it could be worth experimenting with (perhaps only with saber dfence 3 you get it?)

[Vruki Salet]

Bounce! Bounce!!! BOUNCE!!! I SAY!!! It's more realistic that way.

 

I don't know...I think I disagree. "Realistic" is that you would never let your saber hit a friendly saber. Lightsaber users wouldn't - couldn't - be that clumsy or thoughtless. But the game anims don't allow for that kind of precision. So I think the best thing to do is make it as easy to ignore as possible and pretend it doesn't happen.

[razorace]

I agree with the dark rage concept, it also makes up for the Sith having no heal (Jedi tries to heal because he's taken a hard swing, Sith counters by fighting with extra prejudice, giving the jedi no room to heal).

Right now, healing does really help the Jedi very much since the sabers are lethal once you're out of DP anyway. Maybe Jedi should be the only ones that get a DP/FP regen bonus from meditating and dark Jedi only get faster regen thru Rage.

 

As well as that, however, have you thought about making a style that is suited to fighting two or more saberists at once? Even if it's based off of a current stance, I feel it could be worth experimenting with (perhaps only with saber dfence 3 you get it?)

I've already been experimenting with fighting multiple players at once with powerduel. As mentioned above, I've tweaked the game behavior a little so that all blows are parried while the player is in a parry animation. This does make a definite difference since you only have to block one attack of the multiple strikes that come at you from multiple angles.

 

However, this might be overpowered and it might be nessicary to make this a style specific ability. Or maybe it should only work against attacks that at are in the same general direction. That way, players that work together by attacking their enemy from opposite sides would be able to reduce their opponent's DP very quickly unless their opponent is really, really good.

[JRHockney*]

I don't know...I think I disagree. "Realistic" is that you would never let your saber hit a friendly saber. Lightsaber users wouldn't - couldn't - be that clumsy or thoughtless. But the game anims don't allow for that kind of precision. So I think the best thing to do is make it as easy to ignore as possible and pretend it doesn't happen.

 

I don't know, being able to make you saber travel through someone else and hit you opponent sounds a little weird and unrealistic to me. If the just bounce and do no damage whatsoever, it would make sure weird things like that dont happen. Besides, it might be fun to give the bored teammates an option of whacking eachother with no damage. This might alsohelp prevent mindless two on one attacking and help the person who's being attacked because they can strategically keep one on the opponents in front of the other so they are absorbing only one attack.

 

Right now, healing does really help the Jedi very much since the sabers are lethal once you're out of DP anyway. Maybe Jedi should be the only ones that get a DP/FP regen bonus from meditating and dark Jedi only get faster regen thru Rage.

 

Hmmm, interesting idea, but I'm not sure if that would be balanced. Since you have to be sitting dead still with you saber off while meditating and the dark jedi wouldn't , the dark jedi wouold have a huge advantage in a saber fight.

 

What about using the Protection force power as a counter to Rage. Since protection is mostly useless now in a saber fight, it might be a good idea to make it do something decent. I keep thinking that Protection and Rage should differ somehow in this situaltion, but I'm not sure how.

[razorace]

This might alsohelp prevent mindless two on one attacking and help the person who's being attacked because they can strategically keep one on the opponents in front of the other so they are absorbing only one attack.

That was my thinking as well. But I figured that I'd ask what everyone else thou first. Should those friendly strikes cause DP damage or not?

 

What about using the Protection force power as a counter to Rage.

mmm, but then what would Protection actually do? Zenning with the light side doesn't really have the same effect as Raging with the Dark Side does. How about this, maybe protection/Rage should have the same effect, except differ in how they determine duration. For example, Rage's duration is based on how well a player is attacking (blocked hits vs parried hits) and a Light Sider's protection would be based on how well they are blocking personally (their blocks vs parries).

[JRHockney*]

That was my thinking as well. But I figured that I'd ask what everyone else thou first. Should those friendly strikes cause DP damage or not?

 

Hmm, thats a good question. Yeah I think it should, but if possible, make an opinion available where it doesn't aswell.

 

mmm, but then what would Protection actually do? Zenning with the light side doesn't really have the same effect as Raging with the Dark Side does. How about this, maybe protection/Rage should have the same effect, except differ in how they determine duration. For example, Rage's duration is based on how well a player is attacking (blocked hits vs parried hits) and a Light Sider's protection would be based on how well they are blocking personally (their blocks vs parries).

 

Ooooh, I like it. If thats possible, go for it. Although I do think that the special effects like the glow and red electricity should be reduced to a minimum for realism sake if thats possible. Those effects always have annoyed me.

[razorace]

Oh yeah, as for Dodging splash damage from weapons, I've just implimented it so that players dodge by getting knockdowned and throw away from the explosion. It might be an issue where gunner could use

 

I've also fixed a variety of small issues with the knockdown system and animation conflicts while sailing thru the air.

[da_chimp]

i think that multy parry should be style specific because im a ferm believer that the styles are getting too close to each other i personaly believe that each style should be based for a specifiic purpose.

 

idealy this is what id like

Green style - Saber defenceive style

-multy parry

-quicker dodge point recovery

 

Blue style - ranged defenceive style

-back defence against gunner

-quicker dodge point recovery

 

yellow style - jack of all trades master of none

 

Red style - saber offenceive style

-quicker recovery from stun

-cheaper fakes

 

Purple style - forceuser style

-increased force recovery

-increased force damage/defence

[razorace]

Yeah, I just haven't gotten around to making the single saber styles different yet. While you offer some interesting ideas, I'll reiterate that I'm trying to go for a realistic system here. As such, it doesn't make since to have faster FP/DP regen in certain style since FP/DP regen is an attribute of the person and not the saber style they're currently using. Same goes to increased force damage and such. Plus, changing the DP/RP regens for particular styles would probably be a balancing nightmare.

 

However, if anyone can come up with a realistic reason for such differences, I would be willing to reconsider on a case-by-case basis.

[JRHockney*]

I stil think my most recent ideas about making the styles different are realistic enough to be considered. Your probably still contemplating them.

 

Also with this idea, I might also suggest that since you want the characteristics to be based on the person, you might make differences between sith and jedi. Maybe you could make it so that sith have faster FP gain but slower DP gain and jedi have vice versa. The differences would have to be subtle, but still benefitial. This makes sense logically because jedi supposedly use the force for defense and for not for attack or something like that.

 

If you decide not to go with the ideas I had on making the styles different, another idea that might be interesting (and based on the person) is to have a list of characteristics such as: lower stun DP threshold, lower mishap FP threshold, saber length increased, special moves cause stuns or special moves do mor DP damage, less FP cost for force powers, etc. and have each player be able to choose many two or three of them. Obviously, this would be a lot of work and balancing, but it's a possible alternative.

 

Griever, your ideas arent bad either, but be thinking of some realistic reasons for them and razor will listen.

[razorace]

Well, I've been messing with it and it's pretty obvious that the staffs/duals drain TOO much FP with the way I tweaked them. As such, I'm probably going to try again using your suggestions.

 

However, the staff has got to have some sort of disadvantage to off set the two blades. Any ideas?

[JRHockney*]

Well, I've been messing with it and it's pretty obvious that the staffs/duals drain TOO much FP with the way I tweaked them. As such, I'm probably going to try again using your suggestions.

 

However, the staff has got to have some sort of disadvantage to off set the two blades. Any ideas?

 

Well, with the way my ideas worked, both dual and staff would no longer use double FP and the staff would no longer have double DP. Instead, Dual would have the least FP cost for fakes and special attacks but have the highest stun and FP mishap threshold, and staff could be the exact opposite (and all the single saber styles would be inbetween). I think having the highest FP cost for fakes and specials plus the disadvantage of it being too easy to hit the staff during slow bounces (causing mishaps) would be enough to balance it out.

 

So, do you like the idea about making sith (or dark jedi) have slighty quicker FP gain and light jedi have slightly quicker DP gain?

 

I also still like the idea of each style having its original trademark move (I'll just pretend tavions trademerk move was rollstab! ) cause Slow bounces (or saber freezes) or stuns as well as the DP damage. Whatever move causes the stuns should also cost more FP as well. Staff and Dual should probably have their standing special do that so people aren't spamming the butterfly with it.