Saber system suggestions

[razorace]

So, do you like the idea about making sith (or dark jedi) have slighty quicker FP gain and light jedi have slightly quicker DP gain?

I'm preferring the protection/rage changes at this point.

 

I also still like the idea of each style having its original trademark move (I'll just pretend tavions trademerk move was rollstab! ) cause Slow bounces (or saber freezes) or stuns as well as the DP damage.

I think it would make more since for individuals to have signature moves rather than the different styles. Afterall, different characters might use the same style, but they'd still have different signature moves. That's why I've been rather loose with the special moves so far.

[JRHockney*]

I think it would make more since for individuals to have signature moves rather than the different styles. Afterall, different characters might use the same style, but they'd still have different signature moves. That's why I've been rather loose with the special moves so far.

 

Hmm, Maybe we could give players an option of having one special cause stuns and another cause more DP loss, but give palyer a choice about which ones. We could even do one that causes more FP loss as well. One way of doing this might be to add some text that offers a selection of what the special move does under the window that demonstrates the special moves in the that menu.

[razorace]

mmm, that might be something that we can do in the future but for now I just haven't gotten to the player class/skill systems yet.

[JRHockney*]

Review of Enhanced 0.0.8:

 

Holy crap! My Tabbot fights have never been this fun!!!! Wait for it....Wait for it!!!...... : there we go! These changes make this system, killer!!! I finally have something to aim for!!!! With the cartwheel and backflips changed, it also makes the quote on quote "aturu" saber style possible for the fanatical 7 forms people (don't ask why I know what it's called). I do have a few questions though:

 

1. Do back hits still do double DP damage and if so, does that mean hitting my opponent in the back with a power fake will do triple or quadruple DP damage? If my opponent in a slow bounce turns his saber away from me so I can't hit it, I would like the option to hit him in the back for more DP damage.

 

2. Have the FP or DP mishap thresholds for the single saber styles been changed at all?

 

3. Do the red and desann DFA's do anything? If they do, they should do more because its not noticable and they are very hard to hit with.

 

Problem: Staff is now TOO EASY to beat at least for me (and dual is not too hard either). The fact that staff runs out of FP so fast it can hardly do any damage is not worth what ever DP benefits it has and because it is so easy to hit in slow bounce back make it almost a pushover to beat. I just fought 10 rounds with a staff weilding bot and they were the quickest 10 rounds in a long time.

 

Interesting suggestion: make "tap" fakes do a little HP and FP damage at super close range (like against the opponent). Alot of the animations in this case look like you hitting you opponent with you arm, saber, or fist. This might also help keep the fighters at a distance a little more. Also, kicks at distance should knock people back as soon as you press the button (this should prevent any possible spamming with the tab fakes)

[da_chimp]

well i for one know most of the 7 forms or rather 11 forms because of Kotor2 and list time i checked aturu was based around simply anillating a single opponent who weilded a saber but it wasnt so good if there where more then one opponent makesh i thinkis the one obi uses and its more about defence

[JRHockney*]

I never played KOTOR. I mainly know it because there was a big discussion at the MovieBattles site on how the 7 - 11 forms fit into MB2's saber combat. Aturu, if I remember right, was a very arial style of saber combat used by Yoda and Episode 1 Obi. If TK Paddy (Maxstate) comes here and fights with OJP Enhanced (after hopefully winning the MB2 saber tournament), I hope he makes a seven styles saber combat manual that fits this saber system like he did for MB2 eventually. He's a saber combat junky like me.

[razorace]

Meh, I don't believe in the 7 forms theory of lightsaber combat. I personally think its one of those EU materials that just doesn't fit with the movies. The saber styles in the movies are simply too personalized to have "forms" associated with them.

 

1. Do back hits still do double DP damage and if so, does that mean hitting my opponent in the back with a power fake will do triple or quadruple DP damage? If my opponent in a slow bounce turns his saber away from me so I can't hit it, I would like the option to hit him in the back for more DP damage.

Back hits don't do 2x DP damage yet. I just haven't bothered trying it yet since it hasn't really felt like it was needed (altho it is a good idea).

2. Have the FP or DP mishap thresholds for the single saber styles been changed at all?

Not yet. I'm still toying with ideas. Plus, I haven't had the time to work on OJP much lately. One such idea was that maybe a disarm mishap check should happen whenever a player is knockdowned by a kick or any other knockdown condition. That way players would be able to kick the saber out of a player's hand in certain conditions. Any suggestions on that concept?

 

3. Do the red and desann DFA's do anything? If they do, they should do more because its not noticable and they are very hard to hit with.

Not yet. I don't think I had time to mess with them yet. If it's not in the changelog, it's not in the release.

 

Interesting suggestion: make "tap" fakes do a little HP and FP damage at super close range (like against the opponent). Alot of the animations in this case look like you hitting you opponent with you arm, saber, or fist. This might also help keep the fighters at a distance a little more. Also, kicks at distance should knock people back as soon as you press the button (this should prevent any possible spamming with the tab fakes)

hmmm, I don't really want to get in a position of having to alter gameplay to account for the occasional weird @$$ clipping issues. I don't think most players even notice the clipping (I normally don't), so I think any such changes would frustrate/confuse most players.

 

Spamming with the start fakes? Wha?

[Sushi_CW]

I've been lurking on the forums and playing with OJP E for a little while now, and I thought I might as well make my opinion known. If I say something stupid, please bear with me... I don't understand all of the details of the current implementation of the saber system, but hopefully I know enough to say something intelligent.

 

First of all, I like it. I like the fact that you can play defensively, which doesn't work very well in standard JA. I like fact that it makes saber combat more of an art than it was previously.

 

That said, there are a couple of things that bother me. One is the animation, and there's not much you can do about that. Unfortunately, the JA animations were designed for the simpler "base" system. The other issue that bugs me a bit is the dodge system. I like the fact that it exists, but it feels a bit too powerful sometimes. If someone stabs me in the back, I WANT to get killed by it (at least most of the time). If I've been disarmed, I shouldn't be able to dodge 5 or 6 swings before I am finally killed. Maybe you've already considered this and rejected it, but have you thought of making the chances of a dodge attempt failing directly proportional to current DP? If you have full DP, you are guaranteed a dodge. If you have half DP, then a normal dodge situation would result in a successful dodge half of the time (or 3/4 of the time, or whatever... this could be tweaked).

 

I also noticed that when I hit someone and they block, it seems harder to transition to a new attack than in SP. Maybe this is intentional, maybe I'm just not doing it right. In either case, I like the fact that in SP I can swing one way, get blocked, and then swing off the bounce straight into an attack from a different side. It makes the combat feel nice and fluid.

 

If someone is mid swing, can they still block? From what I've seen, the answer appears to be a consistent yes (although I could be wrong!). As more of an idea than a suggestion, would it maybe make sense to have this only happen part of the time? Like the idea I mentioned for dodging, your chances of blocking if you're in the middle of an attack could be proportionate to your current DP.

 

Finally, I would just like to say that I am in favor of a certain degree of randomness. For me, the randomness adds a risk factor that makes combat more exciting.

 

Just a couple of ideas, for whatever they're worth.

[razorace]

First off, thanks for your feedback. It really helps when I get to hear from people that play the mod.

 

That said, there are a couple of things that bother me. One is the animation, and there's not much you can do about that. Unfortunately, the JA animations were designed for the simpler "base" system.

No argument there. Unfortunately I'm pretty limited in terms of animations. Plus, as things get more and more complex, you gotta have more animations to cover for it. Since I don't have any active animator contributors at the moment, that means we're stuck with what we got.

 

If I've been disarmed, I shouldn't be able to dodge 5 or 6 swings before I am finally killed. Maybe you've already considered this and rejected it, but have you thought of making the chances of a dodge attempt failing directly proportional to current DP?

Right, mmm, I might have to increase the DP cost for body dodges vs sabers. It is a bit frustrating that you have to swing spam someone those dropped their saber before they'll die. Maybe increase the cost to 40 DP? What does everyone else think?

 

Anyway, as for the proportional DP idea, it's interesting, but it would be brutely unfair. Players expect some sort of consistance when getting attacked in terms of damage and such but this would completely unbalance that. Could you imagine just randomly NOT dodging or blocking whenever your DP isn't full? It would result in instant kills completely at random (which seems to be a common complaint about MB2).

 

I also noticed that when I hit someone and they block, it seems harder to transition to a new attack than in SP. Maybe this is intentional, maybe I'm just not doing it right. In either case, I like the fact that in SP I can swing one way, get blocked, and then swing off the bounce straight into an attack from a different side. It makes the combat feel nice and fluid.

It's intentional. I made it so that you'll return to the start position if you continue to try to attack from the same direction after a bounce (IE impact). This was done to prevent newbie swing spamming and to avoid situations where an attacker's blade goes thru the defender's blade by continueing to spam attack from a certain direction. However, you do make a good point that it would make things easier if the player automatically spun around and attacked from the opposite direction. I could do that if that's what players wanted. What does everyone else think?

[razorace]

Finally, I would just like to say that I am in favor of a certain degree of randomness. For me, the randomness adds a risk factor that makes combat more exciting.

Well, the problem is that randomness translates directly into unfair things happening to players for no reason at all.

 

After a lot of play testing, we determined that having a more straight mechanical approach to things made the system feel more solid and playable. Originally mishaps could happen on ANY saber impact and not just parries and such. However, it also made it so the players would be randomly falling down, getting stunned, etc and it wasn't as fun to play.

[Vruki Salet]

...if the player automatically spun around and attacked from the opposite direction...

 

I would like to see this tried.

[Lathain Valtiel]

Well, the problem is that randomness translates directly into unfair things happening to players for no reason at all.

 

Oh boo hoo, they got unlucky.

 

The only times randomness gets significant is when dual and staff are factored in, due to their retarded bonuses. That's when you can honestly say it comes down to some luck... Especially oif a combination og staff and dual are pitted against each other.

[razorace]

Well, there's a difference between being unluck and getting iced in two swings due to no fault of your own.

[Lathain Valtiel]

True, but usually it is your fault if its single vs. single.

[Tokakeke]

Saber duels are looooooong as hell. I had a 10 minute duel with Hock yesterday.

 

Not that anything's wrong with that, though.

[JRHockney*]

Oh boo hoo, they got unlucky.

 

The only times randomness gets significant is when dual and staff are factored in, due to their retarded bonuses. That's when you can honestly say it comes down to some luck... Especially oif a combination og staff and dual are pitted against each other.

 

The funny thing is, I think staff in the new Enhanced is incredibly under powered! LOL. Yeah, basically because it now costs 4 FP to swing and it is easy to hit the staff (and dual) in a slow bounce which causes a mishap, thus killing their DP. I murdered several staff tabbots playing FFA last night fairly easily. They just don't do enough damage before they hit less than 50 FP.

 

 

...if the player automatically spun around and attacked from the opposite direction...

 

Might be cool, but I just hate the fact that this makes them expose their back in a saber fight... but...I guess I'm for it.

 

Spamming with the start fakes? Wha?

 

Yes, if they (the start fake/saber malee hit) did DP damage at super close range, you might have some noob just run up and do it constantly, kind of like people do with the saber malee at MB2 (although that knocks people over and does no BP damage).

 

Right, mmm, I might have to increase the DP cost for body dodges vs sabers. It is a bit frustrating that you have to swing spam someone those dropped their saber before they'll die. Maybe increase the cost to 40 DP? What does everyone else think?

 

Yes!!!

 

Saber duels are looooooong as hell. I had a 10 minute duel with Hock yesterday.

 

Yeah, but that was mostly because of our bad ping though. We kept swinging through eachother like ghosts! LOL

 

Suggestion for the hitting slow bounce mishaps: Low and side swings in slow bounce should get disarmed (it looks really cool when it happens like this!) High swings in slowbounce get knocked down, and hitting it with power fake stuns and disarms! Also, back hits should cost more DP so people can't turn away in slow bounce (I already mentioned this, but Its a good idea and just reminding).

[razorace]

Might be cool, but I just hate the fact that this makes them expose their back in a saber fight... but...I guess I'm for it.

Spin is just a word for it. The actual transition animation probably wont include an actual spin.

 

Yes, if they (the start fake/saber malee hit) did DP damage at super close range, you might have some noob just run up and do it constantly, kind of like people do with the saber malee at MB2 (although that knocks people over and does no BP damage).

saber melee hit? Well, the start/windup animation do does saber transition damage but it doesn't cost FP. So you're right, it's probably possible to cause some DP damage on your opponent by starting an attack while the saber is in the other player. We could fix this by either removing the transitional damage done while in a windup or we could add a FP cost to windups in addition to the FP cost for actual attacks and transitions. In fact, we could just make it so that attacks cost no FP and that the FP cost occurs during the windup/transition prior to the swing. hmmmm...

 

Suggestion for the hitting slow bounce mishaps: Low and side swings in slow bounce should get disarmed (it looks really cool when it happens like this!) High swings in slowbounce get knocked down, and hitting it with power fake stuns and disarms!

I suppose that would work, however, that would be more hardcoded than the current mishap checks.

[JRHockney*]

saber melee hit? Well, the start/windup animation do does saber transition damage but it doesn't cost FP. So you're right, it's probably possible to cause some DP damage on your opponent by starting an attack while the saber is in the other player. We could fix this by either removing the transitional damage done while in a windup or we could add a FP cost to windups in addition to the FP cost for actual attacks and transitions. In fact, we could just make it so that attacks cost no FP and that the FP cost occurs during the windup/transition prior to the swing. hmmmm...

 

Might be a good idea, although I do kind of like using the start up fakes to block and wear down my opponents FP. I'll have to think about that.

 

After fighting several running swing spamming noobs, and getting killed a few times before I started fighting smarter, I have an Idea to make the Wlaking more essential to the combat:

 

Make it so that if you run and hit you an opponent's walking or standing with a saber (not a gunner), you get knocked down in that new awsome knockdown animation.

 

Exceptions will be if you run and hit an opponent when they are in slow bounce, stun, knockdown, disarm, hit their back or they are swinging. You should still be able to still block while running though.

 

If Both saberists are running and swing and hit each other the same time, they will both get knocked over!!! LMAO!!! Wow, that would be worth downloading the mod itself!!! LOL

[razorace]

Make it so that if you run and hit you an opponent's walking or standing with a saber (not a gunner), you get knocked down in that new awsome knockdown animation.

Well, running already doubles your mishap chances so I'm not sure we need to mess with it farther. Making it tuff is good, but making it impossible doesn't seem nessicary.

[JRHockney*]

Well, running already doubles your mishap chances so I'm not sure we need to mess with it farther. Making it tuff is good, but making it impossible doesn't seem nessicary.

 

Well, if tonight was any indication, its still not tuff enough. They just didn't see a reason to stop running because the would still kill eachother inspite.

[razorace]

mmm, maybe no slow bounce protection for running people?

[razorace]

Hold on. They were doing ok without parrying at all?

[JRHockney*]

mmm, maybe no slow bounce protection for running people?

 

Hmmm, although it would be as funny as having two saberists collide and get knocked off their feet and fly backwards (LOL!), this might help alot too. Since your idea would be a lot easier to implement, you might want to do it and we'll see if it's enough.

[razorace]

I think my issue is that I don't want to completely kill the run saberring since it's useful in some situations.

 

You know, I just realized that I can test prototype new code MUCH faster when the backup system is the server. I can actually impliment some of these changes and have them up on the server immediately.

[JRHockney*]

I think my issue is that I don't want to completely kill the run saberring since it's useful in some situations.

 

You know, I just realized that I can test prototype new code MUCH faster when the backup system is the server. I can actually impliment some of these changes and have them up on the server immediately.

 

Really, cool! Does that mean we can play with them too?!