The third side of the Force

[Cygnus Q'ol]

Because the gray side had no name,i decided to make one.

 

Yeah OK, cool idea to try to name it, but, Kanz?

[StaffSaberist]

It's part of his name on the forums:

 

Master Kan Maz - Ma = Master Kanz

 

I think...

[PoiuyWired]

Well, funny as it is, Kriea's teaching in kotor2 is also quite grey, with slight leaning towards DS. Now lets ignore the fact that she is a evil female dog ...

 

If you think of it Atris should be like that also...

[Prime]

...and you know this how?[/QUOte]The Star Wars saga.

 

You must admit, they do seem to have a tendency to...[/QUOte]Indeed. What are characters that people consider grey? Dooku tried it, and we all know how he turned out. Same with Anakin. Etc.

 

No, they can just be Jedi refusing to be fully light.[/QUOte]But what do you think that means?

 

In the films there is no "light side" per se (and that term is never used). There is the Force, and there is the unnatural corruption of the Force, which is the dark side. When the dark side is strong, the Force is out of balance as in it is not in its natural, stable state. Note that the prophecy to bring balance to the Force indicated that the Chosen One would destroy the Sith (dark side), thus getting ride of the dark side, thus bring the Force back into balance, which is what ultimately happened. It just turns out that the Jedi Order was decimated along the way.

 

If in fact there was a light side that opposed the dark side, then the balance would be somewhere in the middle. In that case, bringing the force into balance would imply that both the light side users and dark side users would have to be destroyed. But if that was true, then surely the Jedi would do everything in their power to prevent the prophecy from coming true, since that would imply their destruction. Yet Qui-Gon is emphatic that Anakin is the Chosen one and should be trained, because he knows that ultimately he will destroy the dark side and bring the Force into balance. And obviously Kenobi, Windu, and Yoda have no fear of the prophecy either, and in fact are hopeful that it will come to pass.

 

So there is really no way to be "not fully light." Either you are using the natural Force, or you using the corrupted form of the Dark Side. And we know that once this happens, forever will it dominate your destiny. And those who have attempted to use the dark side but not be corrupted by it have failed and eventually fallen.

 

And a force user that uses the dark side is not a Jedi at all, since such a being would not be following the Jedi Code or adhering to Jedi philosophies.

 

Or Sith refusing to be fully dark.[/QUOte]By the same token, by definition a being that is not devoted to the dark side ("fully dark") cannot be Sith by definition. Also note that the Sith are a group devoted to the dark side, and not all dark side users are Sith.

 

But if they can refuse all the temptations of the dark side, that would make them a Jedi. If they refuse none, they are Sith. What if they embrace exactly half of the teachings of the Jedi, and half the teachings of the Sith? Then they are true Gray Jedi.[/QUOte]The Jedi and Sith's beliefs are mutually exclusive, and therefore it is impossible for a being to be a member of both groups. They are striving to achieve opposite goals. Hell, Just look at their Codes:

 

Jedi

There is no emotion; there is peace.

There is no ignorance; there is knowledge.

There is no passion; there is serenity.

There is no chaos; there is harmony.

There is no death; there is the Force.

 

Sith

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.

Through passion, I gain strength.

Through strength, I gain power.

Through power, I gain victory.

Through victory, my chains are broken.

The Force shall free me.

 

The Jedi believe in peace. The Sith believe it is a lie. The Jedi believe there is no passion. The Sith believe it gives them strength. And so on. You can't take half the teachings of each group because they are opposed to one another. So there can be no Jedi (and that would be the wrong term anyway since they would not be following the code, etc.) that embraces some of both teachings and thus can't be "grey", like you said.

 

But in that case, Jolee wasn't really a "grey Jedi." In fact, he wasn't really grey, because that would mean he was neither light nor dark, and you just can't be. While he may be between the Jedi and Sith teachings, alignment is something different, and he wasn't dark or evil.[/QUOte]The only reason Jolee wasn't a Jedi proper was because he had mostly political differences with them. It was not because he had a conflicting view of the Force. He did not use both sides of the Force story-wise, and did not embrace any teachings of the Sith.

 

I take Gray Force-User as someone who follows their own teachings. But some of those teachings may be associated with either the Jedi or the Sith. Sorry for any confusion.[/QUOte]Again, this isn't really possible. They may follow their own teachings, but if those beliefs involve using the dark side, eventually they will fall fully.

[Master Kan-Maz]

All the students that are fallen to the dark/light side of the Force are weak.They believe in someone's teachings.

 

The Kans are strong.They believe only on theirselves.

[Vaelastraz]

@ Prime

 

No, with a very highwillpower you could use the dark side just to achieve what you want... you dont have to "fall" and become totally eviland twisted.

That counts for almost everyone in everystory who has a lot of power. You are always tempted to use it just for your own advantage.

Also the jedi or sith code doesnt determine someone's strength does it? It is all up to the potential in the force and training...

At least this is what i believe -.-

[Master Kan-Maz]

No, with a very highwillpower you could use the dark side just to achieve what you want... you dont have to "fall" and become totally equal and twisted.

That counts for almost everyone in everystory who has a lot of power. You are always tempted to use it just for your own advantage.

 

At least this is what i believe -.-

 

That's what i'm talking about!

You can use both sides to achieve what you want.

 

But DO NOT fall to the side you are using for.

[BattleDog]

Uh, guys? Think about what you're saying, I'm with Prime here, you can't go and pick bits of the Jedi and Sith teachings.

 

Firstly anyone who has ever held these sorts of "grey" veiws in the films or EU has ultimately fallen.

 

Second, this triangle thing sits very badly and it doesn't explain why people fall so fast or why no one stays grey very long. By definition the dark side is the use of negetive emotions to achieve your own goals and to subjigate the Force to your will. So as soon as you start usings bits of the dark side you start to fall, infact in almost every case this is what happens.

 

A Jedi becomes dissatisfied with the Jedi way, feels it is too slow/constricting/a waste of power and begins using other methods to get what they want, then they fall. The key thing here is WHAT YOU WANT.

 

There is no third side to the Force because you don't have a scale, you don't slide from one end to the other because ultimately the Force is not about your actions, it is about intent. If the Force was about actions then all Jedi would be pacifists.

 

You are either dark or light, grey is just a way of describing someone who is struggling with their side of the Force and maybe trying to change. Consider Jolee, his Force meter is neutral to show you he isn't a Jedi but neither Bastila nor Juhani are 100% light yet they are still Jedi. What StaffSaberist

, you said it yourself, he follows the Jedi way, and he does. What he doesn't do is except the monastic nature of the Jedi as an order, he doesn't say "Hay Revan, its okay to beat someone up once in a while." On the temple roof when you encounter Bastila and she asks you to join her Jolee says basically. "I am a Jedi and I will fight you."

 

Equally Kreia is ultimately a darksider, just look at the endgame. Also look at their motives, Jolee is along to help you, he knows who you are and once you do too he drops the act and tells you basically not to fall to the dark side and go save the galaxey.

 

Jedi and Sith are names for two orders that follow the two opposings sides of the Force, they are manifestations of the Force. Look at the films, you start out on the "light" side and then fall, only the chosen one goes the other way and he almost doesn't do it. There is no "light" side per se and you don't need to be a saint to be a Jei, you just need to be fundamentally good, like anyone else. Most people are "good" in real life.

 

Ask your self this? Why do the Jedi have all these rules? What happens to Jedi that don't follow the rules? They go DS. Why? The rules are there to protect you from yourself and the temptations of the dark side.

 

Being Jedi or Sith is about following an ideal but the Force and the dark side are beyond either, if you follow good ideals and use the Force for those ends you are uncorrupted, if you do not you are fallen. This duality has been developed over 25,000 years, its not something Yoda cooked up that first night with Luke.

 

Your idea of Grey Jedi is like this: I push a guy off a cliff, the next day I save a guy hanging from a cliff, so I'm a grey Jedi. It doesn't work like that, either you feel guilty about the first guy so you saved the second or you are conciously trying to "balance the scales" to justify your darkness. In both cases you were actually DS on day one and LS on day two.

[Darth InSidious]

Kreia wasn't grey. She disguised herself as grey. She hates the Force and wants to kill it. That is far from grey. That is a blackness beneath even that which the Sith would do.

 

Exar Kun also tried to be grey, I believe.

[Prime]

Yeah,the third side of the Force.

 

-The Kans-

 

Little information:

 

There is knowledge.

There is no stupidity.

There is Kans.

There is no Jedi.

There is no Sith.

There is Force.

There is no weapon.

Actually, you are way off...

 

http://www.kans.org/

 

Welcome to the Kentucky Association of Nursing Students. KANS is a preprofessional organization for pre-nursing and nursing students enrolled in Kentucky accredited diploma, associate, and baccalaureate degree programs. KANS is a constituent member of the National Student Nurses Association (NSNA).

 

The purpose of KANS:

 

1. To assume responsibility for contributing to nursing education in order to provide for the highest quality health care.

2. To provide programs representative of fundamental and current professional interest and concerns; and

3. To aid in the development of the whole person, his/her professional role, and his/her responsibility for the health care of people in all walks of life.

4. To advocate for nursing students in preparing for their professional roles as nurses.

 

The Kans are strong.They believe only on theirselves.

Now you are just making stuff up.

 

No, with a very highwillpower you could use the dark side just to achieve what you want... you dont have to "fall" and become totally eviland twisted.

In the Star Wars universe, yes you do. Using the dark side to do what you want is inherently evil, and continuing to do so means you are evil.

 

It appears that what you are stating is what you want to be true in the Star Wars universe, not what is true. And you have provided no proof that what you are saying is correct.

 

That counts for almost everyone in everystory who has a lot of power. You are always tempted to use it just for your own advantage.

But other stories do not have the dark side that tempts them, and so aren't relavent.

 

Also the jedi or sith code doesnt determine someone's strength does it? It is all up to the potential in the force and training...

At least this is what i believe -.-

The codes guides their actions. And the reasons for them are because of what we are discussing. Without following them, you fall to the dark side.

 

That's what i'm talking about!

You can use both sides to achieve what you want.

 

But DO NOT fall to the side you are using for.

Proof?

[Darth InSidious]

There is none. Only the Daft Side can be used by one without being either light or dark, though it is recommended that sanelings stay away as it may disturb their carefully catalogued hair follicles

[BattleDog]

I would disagree there, it should be much easier for a dark sider to use the "light" side, since it has no pull. Yet, and here's the best evidence for the Dark Side being a corruption, Sith can't use "light" powers like healing very much at all. This is stated in the Prologue to SOTE, Vader manages to heal his lungs but because he uses the dark side the satisfaction and joy he feals nulifies the healing.

 

Here's the basic thing. A Jedi draws his power from the Force, the Force flows through him, a Sith uses his emotions to harness the Force. In fact it might be said that a Jedi flows through the Force, letting it guide them. If the Force is "god" and we are all part of a grand design then the Sith trying to control the Force are the great disruption that needs to be removed.

 

Hence the prophecy.

 

Kan-Maz, no offence but you sound like every Sith Lord ever.

[Gray_Master]

May I point out that Qui-gon was viewed as a Gray jedi...he belived in the lightside but felt there was more than one way to accomplish the "good" outcome...so he fought with the council on many things..one being Aniken's being a Jedi.

 

A Gray Jedi is not one who belives half Sith and half Jedi for the reasons Prime said (I think it was Prime) they could be full blown lightside but their views...Star Wars breaks alot of it's ideas down into points of view...the Jedi and the Sith are alike in almost every way they both want "peace" now what that peace entails is different but the goals are the same...Gray Jedi are they same way....Jedi=Loving Order Sith=Iron Control Gray= Enlightend(sp) Choice.

[StaffSaberist]

I'm no expert on Gray Jedi (Being a Jedi fan) so you explained more than I ever could. *Bows* Thank you.

[BattleDog]

Grey Master, yes you're right there but now you're talking about something totally different to the others. Qui-gon was "Grey" in his methods but, as you say, he was still 100% light. This is like Jolee Bindo, although Bindo is more extreme. They're Jedi but without all the dogma and iron adherence to rules. Qui-Gon might have done some things the Council frowned apon but he's not going in for murder or oppression of the masses.

 

While we're talking about points of view, if you notice in all six films not once do the Sith lie, they often don't tell the whole truth.

 

Palpy: I love democracy (because you elected me) I will lay down these emergancy powers as soon as possible (because I'm going to reform the constition and make them permenant.)

 

Dooku: The Senate is being run by the Sith.

 

Obi-Wan: Vader betrayed and murdered your father.

 

Who's actually lieing?

[StaffSaberist]

None of them. The Jedi Anakin died when he embraced the Sith teachings. And Dooku told the whole truth, didn't he?

[Gray_Master]

well other than that whole "the Jedi are overthrowing the goverment and will kill all the senators" lol

 

I think "Gray" methods were used much much more during the latter years of the order (Mace wanting to kill Palpy)

 

Also the Jedi Order from the movies is very different from the Order of KOTOR IMO.

 

BattleDog: are you saying Qui-gon's methods were different from his point of view?

 

Jedi are followers of the LS to bring about peace

Gray Jedi are "Robin Hoods" take from the evil and give to the needy.

Dark Jedi are Cults that follow the evil methods of the force for their own gain.

Sith are followers of the DS to bring about Order.

 

IMO Kriea was a Dark Jedi..not Gray, Bindo, on the other hand, is Gray as he wants to help the underdog IE the wookies in KOTOR.

[Prime]

May I point out that Qui-gon was viewed as a Gray jedi...he belived in the lightside but felt there was more than one way to accomplish the "good" outcome...so he fought with the council on many things..one being Aniken's being a Jedi.

Qui-Gon only was defiant one what needed to be done, not how something was accomplished. He thought Anakin should be trained, whereas the Council did not. But when the Council put its foot down, Qui-Gon did obey. And the Council did not frown on his methods for doing things. In that respect he was the same sort of Jedi as any other.

 

I think "Gray" methods were used much much more during the latter years of the order (Mace wanting to kill Palpy)

But Mace wanting to kill Palpatine was still within the Jedi Code of conduct. He was correct in what he was saying to Anakin. Killing him to protect the Republic wasn't grey at all.

 

Jedi are followers of the LS to bring about peace

Gray Jedi are "Robin Hoods" take from the evil and give to the needy.

How is the second group really different from the first? What examples are you refering to?

[StaffSaberist]

Well, the Gray Jedi are a little less nice in their techniques. They are a little less hesitant to kill because unlike the Jedi, they don't have love for all life; just the needy.

[BattleDog]

I dissagree, first off they (Greys) don't exist as an order. The idea that they only help the needy is a bit simplistic. I also don't think they "take" or "give," they're Jedi who opperate within the code (laws) but outside the rules. Rules being different from laws. For example Qui-Gon cheats Watto with the chance cube, something that the Council would frown upon in the abstract at least but bothers Qui-Gon not at all.

 

Also I don't believe Palpy said the Jedi were going to kill the senators, just that they were going to overthrow the government, and him. Thats exactly what they were planning. It only seems different when you know Palpy is the Sith Lord.

 

As far as Qui-Gon's pount of view, well he is a Jedi but his methods are a little dodgy and he doesn't believe in the wisdom of the Council, ultimately of course he was wrong. Anakin should not have been trained.

 

Notes: Yes Kreia was dark and Jolee was really light, if you notice his change in attitude after you find out you're Revan he starts talking about being wary of your feelings and learning to deal with them. Also the KOTOR Order was very different, for one thing the Council knew what it was doing.

[shaded6]

wouldnt you think after having a different idea towards your capability and power over your thoughts and how you control your emotions could give you a power, not higher then any other, just a different understanding towards how to control your very being from both the light and the dark? what is the Grey Jedi? i think we should have a knowledge of both the light and the dark for a greater source of power, but seriously, when did someone not convert to the Sith in the process because of what the teachings offered? only someone who knows how to use themselve...........

 

seth

[GuitarNProgress]

Although I'm really enjoying the conversing, I must ask: Why use Jolee and Kreia? The game itself says that Revan is exactly what you're trying to say. He would kill a thousand to convert a few and so on ;/.

 

Ok, debate on.

[Gray_Master]

Palpy did say the Jedi wanted to kill the senetors, right after Anakin killed Mace, he said the jedi's next move will be to kill them.

 

LS Jedi follow the law, the don't believe good can be achived through unjust means.

Gray or "Robin Hoods" break heads when needs be to gain the greater good. They may steal or (in a form) cheat. Remember Jolee? The council praised him for not killing his wife...a choice he regrets due to the loss of life. Gray is simply more blunt than full LS.

 

Prime: Qui-gon was not a full Gray but he was Gray-er than other Jedi. He is the best example of Gray in the movies however. He wanted Anakin to learn the force one way or another...he obayed the council when they said not to teach Anakin...but still told him to watch and learn.

[shaded6]

"anakin, if one is to understand the great mystery, one must study all its aspects, not just the dogmatic, narrow veiw of the Jedi. if you wish to become a complete and wise leader you must embrace a larger veiw of the force." Darth Sidius, aka, Chancellor Palpetine.

 

this is a great path to great knowledge.....lol. do you have what it takes to control yourself? lmao

 

seth

[Prime]

Well, the Gray Jedi are a little less nice in their techniques. They are a little less hesitant to kill because unlike the Jedi, they don't have love for all life; just the needy.

What is "less nice."? The vast majority of Jedi do not hesitate to kill when they feel it is required. None have a love for all life. They are not pacifists. Each Jedi may come to a different decision about when killing is necessary, but there is no "grey" group that has different views than the "normal" group of Jedi. Mace Windu, using the dark side-skirting Form IV, is much more martial than Qui-Gon for example. Yet Mace is put up as one of the examples of the Jedi Order.

 

LS Jedi follow the law, the don't believe good can be achived through unjust means.

That's right. The Jedi do not believe the end justifies the means.

 

Gray or "Robin Hoods" break heads when needs be to gain the greater good.

That is exactly the philosophy of the Sith. To them the end does justify the means. They will "break heads" when they feel it will help them achieve their goal, which they view as being good. Anakin the most of all.

 

They may steal or (in a form) cheat. Remember Jolee? The council praised him for not killing his wife...a choice he regrets due to the loss of life. Gray is simply more blunt than full LS.

I don't know what you mean by blunt. Many Jedi have done things that could have been viewed as stealing or cheating, or twisting the truth (including the council for that matter). Many Jedi have taken actions that have turned out not to be the best, and have regretted it. Again, this doesn't put them in some "grey" group.

 

Qui-gon was not a full Gray but he was Gray-er than other Jedi. He is the best example of Gray in the movies however.

I would say that Anakin was more so on his decent to the dark side. He was way more defiant as a Jedi than Qui-Gon ever was. And I was say Mace was more "grey" as well.

 

He wanted Anakin to learn the force one way or another...he obayed the council when they said not to teach Anakin...but still told him to watch and learn.

So ultimately you are saying that a Grey Jedi is one that does not agree with every decision of the council? If that is the case then that includes the majority of the Jedi, since there have been many that have disagreed at one point or another (Obi-Wan, Quinlan, Qui-Gon, Anakin, and so on). Simple disagreement on certain issues or taking certain actions that don't follow the strictest interpretations of Jedi views doesn't put a Jedi in some arbitrary group. If that was the case then the majority and even council members like Mace would have to be included in that group.