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Force Power Suggestions


razorace

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Hello All,

 

I think we're at the point of development with Enhanced's saber system that we need to start considering what changes we should make to the Force Powers to make them a part of a more rounded Enhanced gameplay system.

 

Here are My Ramblings So Far:

 

- Force Powers are exhausting! The FP cost for Force Powers should be high since they require so much concentration and effort.

 

- Body-based Force Powers (speed, jump, etc) are inherently easier to do because the force user has a more personal Force connection to his own body. External/Unnatural powers like Push/Pull and Lightning should be harder to do. This is also the primary reason why it's easier to do lightsaber combat than Force power battles for Jedi.

 

- Using a Force power while using your saber lowers it's effective power because the player is also having to concentrate on being ready to block saber attacks.

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Prepare for a long thread because everyone will want to put in their 2 cents. For me the ultimate SW game will have a KOTOR storyline with Jedi Knight action. So taking this into consideration, if you want to go with force powers even if it is to inject it into a Jedi Knight game lets talk KOTOR (and KOTOR II :TSL).

 

For Jedi Knight (both Outcast & Academy) so far we've encountered (both SP & MP): Jump, Speed, Push, Pull, Lightning, Grip, Dark Rage, Absorb, Drain, Saber throw & Heal.

 

What I like about the 2 KOTOR games is the wide range of powers you got:

Universal Powers

 

Adv Throw Lightsaber

Affect Mind

Battle Meditation

Beast Trick

Breath Control

Burst of Speed

Dominate Mind

Energy Resistance

Force Affinity

Force Body

Force Breach

Force Camouflage

Force Channel

Force Confusion

Force Deflection

Force Immunity

Force Potency

Force Push

Force Redirection

Force Resistance

Force Sight

Force Suppression

Force Wave

Force Whirlwind

Imp. Battle Meditation

Imp. Energy Resistance

Imp. Force Body

Imp. Force Camouflage

Knight Speed

Mind Trick

Mstr Battle Meditation

Mstr Enrgy Resistance

Mstr Force Body

Mstr Force Camouflage

Mstr Speed

Precognition

Throw Lightsaber

 

Light Side Powers

 

Destroy Droid

Disable Droid

Force Armor

Force Aura

Force Barrier

Force Enlightenment

Force Shield

Force Valor

Heal

Imp. Force Barrier

Imp. Heal

Imp. Revitalize

Inspire Followers I

Inspire Followers II

Inspire Followers III

Inspire Followers IV

Inspire Followers V

Knight Valor

Mstr Force Barrier

Mstr Heal

Mstr Revitalize

Mstr Valor

Revitalize

Stasis

Stasis Field

Stun

Stun Droid

 

Dark Side Powers

 

Affliction

Choke

Crush Opposition I

Crush Opposition II

Crush Opposition III

Crush Opposition IV

Crush Opposition V

Death Field

Drain Force

Drain Life

Fear

Force Crush

Force Scream

Force Lightning

Force Storm

Fury

Horror

Imp. Drain Force

Imp. Force Scream

Insanity

Mstr Drain Force

Mstr Force Scream

Kill

Plague

Shock

Slow

Wound

 

And btw having a saber in your hand doesn't make your powers less effective or accurate for that matter.

 

End of part 1

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I personally think force powers should be part of the gameplay but have a draining risk or con to them, they should cost a decent amount depending on the power, here are my suggestions on the current powers available ingame. Basically I think powers should be activated for a one time use like push or toggled and have them drain force over time. (phew took awhile to post couldnt connect to the forums for some reason for awhile razor x.x)

 

This is just a rough description of how i see most force powers based on what they would do. I thought about making it have ranks and everything to be more detailed but I didnt wanna make the post any longer than it already is.

 

Neutral Force powers : Powers given both to Jedi and Sith I personally have viewed them as basics and thus shouldn't cost too much to perform but because of that they're mainly to assist the player and not for attacking/defending.

 

1) Force Sense : I've always felt that this power was pretty decent to find enemies but I always used it only for a few seconds unless I was completely lost and could not find the enemy at all. I think it could be a toggle force power and gradually drain force as it is enabled, though right now Its cost is 20 fp which doesnt seem to be that much normally but thats quite a bit of attacking(20 swings) in OJP E. Allows you to see people through walls, and see what force powers someone has on them IE absorb/protection. If they have both mix the shader color to tell you that. (2 fp every 3 seconds up to 20 fp for the full duration of the ability cost at max rank)

 

2) Force Jump : Right now I think it might drain a bit much fp for the power, I know you adjusted the back flip and side flip fp cost maybe this could be adjusted. I don't think anything else would be necessary to change in how it works. There is worry about people jumping around like bunnies but i think the cost would eventually stop that pretty quick as the cost will build up and they will be exhausted. (I think maybe 10/15 FP for a full jump at max rank)

 

3) Force Push : As it is now it seems pretty nicely balanced and there probably should be little change. I know razor implemented the knock down from sp and now it seems pretty perfect. The only adjusting would be how it affects things like other force powers. (Should cost about 20/25 FP which is a good amount at max rank).

 

4) Force Pull : I'm not quite sure why it pulled people to you but I can see how useful it is if you'd wanna bring someone who is gripping you down off a ledge with you. Not quite sure how much this one should cost seeing as this seems one of the fairly basic and easier things to do in the movies, maybe make it weaker as in not cause knock down and only pull people forward. Otherwise it would disarm weapons for a little lower cost than push. (Maybe 10-15 FP at max rank)

 

5) Force Speed : I've never really liked how this one was implemented in Jedi Outcast/Academy. I've always felt it should be a toggled burst of speed that drains force powers extremely quickly leading to exhaustion. Pros of this power would be the ability to catch fleeing enemies and quickly attack and cons would be its draining force cost and your saber must deactivated to run. When you swing the power is automaticly toggled off. (I think the FP drain over time hould be 5 FP every 3 seconds as it is toggled on at max rank)

 

 

Lightside Powers : To me the lightside has been more about enhancing your defensive abilities and concertration, in JKA base we see them mostly be miracle powers of healing and shields. I think that should be changed quite significantly.

 

1) Force Heal : This one I'm not sure how to change, right now hp in a duel is not very significant since the sabers are lethal and DP is more like your life points. I think it should be a toggled force power to convert your FP to DP at a faster rate as well as slowly heal your health if you are wounded. Since it requires alot of concertration it should be broken if you're forced to block, swing or run. It should convert the fp to dp at a much lower rate when your saber is drawn. (Force heal drains 10 fp every 3 seconds and converts it to restore 10 hp every 3 seconds and 5 dp every 3 seconds at max rank)

 

2) Force Protection : I for one have always hated how protection has been portrayed because it seems so out there and unrealisticly silly. It pretty much was a ugly green shield (get rid of the graphic and enhance the sound!) that lowered damage delt on you. I believe it should be an enhancing force power, enhancing your defense making it cost less dp to block. The power should be activated for a base force cost, much like is in base. (FP cost would be 30-40 FP to activate and force protection would last for 10 seconds decreasing the DP it costs to block attacks by 50% at max rank)

 

3) Mind Trick : I'm not sure how I would change this ability as it seems pretty unorthodox in a fight against force sensitive. I think it would be fine left alone, to be used as an escape method or sneak attack.

 

4) Force Absorb : This power should absorb all offensive powers and give you FP for it much like it does currently. However I'm not sure if it is a toggled ability that drains force over time or if it is an activated ability. I think it should be activated so it isnt too overpowering of a counter against darkside powers. However it shouldnt play a sound or have a graphic that a player could see without sense. (30-40 FP to activate absorb for 10-15 seconds, at max rank grants you 2x the force cost of the darkside power used on you while absorb is active)

 

 

Darkside Powers : Darkside powers should be very offensive and drain alot of FP to use as they are the most unnatural and take alot of concertration and cause exhaustion pretty quickly.

 

 

1) Force Lightning : I want to say that I love the way you have it now, it causes knock back and is fairly lethal but can be blocked with a saber. However it should drain little of the victims dp when you use force lightning while your saber is drawn and it shouldnt knock back unless you're unarmed (in melee). That way you sacrifice being chopped up if you use force lightning at its full power (both hands) but its very lethal and causes knock back.

 

2) Force Grip : Ahh the evil grip, we've all been victim of it in MP games. I wonder if it is possible to port the SP grip to MP, make it have a sort of push effect when you fling your mouse in one direction and let go. I think grip should cost quite alot of FP because it disarms an opponent and causes a bit of damage, however it is easily countered by force push or damaging the opponent using grip. With a saber drawn the grip should work much like it does now, however without one drawn It could work like in SP where you're able to fling your victim around like a ragdoll. (I think fp cost should be 40 FP and cause 10 damage a second at max rank while your victim is gripped until they're dead)

 

3) Force Rage : I think this should be an offensive enhancement force power and make your swings cost more DP damage if not parried or nullified by another swing. However it should cost alot of FP as a con and your damage could be all nullified by a skilled player with parries/swing blocking paired with force protection . (I think it should cost 30-40 FP to activate and give you double DP damage for all swings, including doubling the fake dp damage for 10 seconds at max rank)

 

4) Force Drain : Not much to say about this power aside from it being really unorthodox, i don't like it much and so I have no idea how I would change this for OJP E balance. I think it could be removed and replaced with a new force power using the force to throw objects offensively. Razorace had a good idea about it.

 

 

Soo finally done with my post, I look forward to everyone elses ideas and suggestions for force powers.

 

 

And btw having a saber in your hand doesn't make your powers less effective or accurate for that matter.

 

I strongly disagree in the movies we've never really seen advanced force powers unless it was with two hands and in pretty good concertration. I think basics like neutrals should be unaffected by having an ignited saber but the advanced ones should.

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In KOTOR (I & II) your level determines the amount of Force Powers you have, the amount of points you have towards these powers and the rate @ which they refresh once you start using them. In battle your powers regenerate slower than being out of combat. Now heres what I like also the powers dont just upgrade they change. e.g for both JK games lets take push for example

Push begins at 1 then goes to 2 and 3 with the amount for force you use goign up, the area affected by your power goign up and the effect time goign up.

 

In KOTOR you start out with push which affects the person in the direction you're facing. Level 2 is called Force Whirlwind in which the person is picked up off the ground and is twirled around in a malestron of air and dust rendering them unable to attack you while leaving them wide open to attack. The next upgrade is Force Wave which is like a telekenetic explosion all around the jedi. Knockign every enemy to the floor and stunning the weaker ones. (360 degree push bomb you could say).

 

This is the kind of thought that was put into the game why its arguably the best SW game ever. (oh right it won game of the year 2003 how could i forget) If this kind of stuff was injected into a JK game it would make my day.

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I was thinking, maybe sense it takes a long time to kill someone in the movies with lightning, maybe we should lessen the FP cost, lessen the damage done (since it has knock down now), AND DEFINITELY lessen the rate of DP drain on when zapping a person with a saber.

 

With the lessened damage and lessened FP cost, we might have to allow gunners some kind of get away though so its not spammed against them.

 

Idea: Make absorb, reflect the lightning back at the person in malee and have the absorber use the lightning throwing animation to do it. Eventually, this idea could turn in to a "lightning lock" like in espisode 3.

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I was thinking, maybe sense it takes a long time to kill someone in the movies with lightning, maybe we should lessen the FP cost, lessen the damage done (since it has knock down now), AND DEFINITELY lessen the rate of DP drain on when zapping a person with a saber.

 

With the lessened damage and lessened FP cost, we might have to allow gunners some kind of get away though so its not spammed against them.

 

Idea: Make absorb, reflect the lightning back at the person in malee and have the absorber use the lightning throwing animation to do it. Eventually, this idea could turn in to a "lightning lock" like in espisode 3.

 

I think that lightning should definitely be lethal, if it isnt it becomes useless and its one of the core darkside powers so I don't think it should be useless, infact I don't think any power should be totally without benefit at a cost. But I do agree that it should drain less dp damage because people can easily just drain your dp and do a lunge and win very fast. Just not so little dp damage that its essentially useless to use against anyone that isnt a gunner.

 

Your idea for absorb is cool but it could be a hassle, would it require new graphics / animations? For my suggestions I tried to be more simple, wish JKA originally had the ability to throw barrels/objects from the map at your opponent kind of like in JK1 :(. That to me fits darkside more than some weird drain ability heh.

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I think that lightning should definitely be lethal, if it isnt it becomes useless and its one of the core darkside powers so I don't think it should be useless, infact I don't think any power should be totally without benefit at a cost. But I do agree that it should drain less dp damage because people can easily just drain your dp and do a lunge and win very fast. Just not so little dp damage that its essentially useless to use against anyone that isnt a gunner.

 

I just dont think thats movie realistic for it to do that much damage that quickly. I think that as long as the FP cost is balanced against the DP damage, it will work alright.

 

Your idea for absorb is cool but it could be a hassle, would it require new graphics / animations?

 

I think with the existing animations it wouldnt be that much of a hassle. Just some interesting if/then C statements which razor could do pretty easily most likely.

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- Force Powers are exhausting! The FP cost for Force Powers should be high since they require so much concentration and effort.

 

- Body-based Force Powers (speed, jump, etc) are inherently easier to do because the force user has a more personal Force connection to his own body. External/Unnatural powers like Push/Pull and Lightning should be harder to do. This is also the primary reason why it's easier to do lightsaber combat than Force power battles for Jedi.

 

- Using a Force power while using your saber lowers it's effective power because the player is also having to concentrate on being ready to block saber attacks.

 

This all sounds pretty good to me. However, I think that it would be better to have lowering your saber boost your force abilities instead of having your abilities lowered when a saber is out. For example, I'd rather have a +1 boost to push ability with saber lowered than a -1 penalty to push ability with saber raised. Also, I don't think it should necessarily apply to every force power.

 

I personally think force powers should be part of the gameplay but have a draining risk or con to them, they should cost a decent amount depending on the power, here are my suggestions on the current powers available ingame. Basically I think powers should be activated for a one time use like push or toggled and have them drain force over time.

 

I agree with this as well... for force powers that are chosen to apply (speed, sense, etc), I'd generally rather see a slow drain with no initial cost than a huge initial cost with no drain. The "toggled" powers should automatically deactivate after a certain time, though, to prevent players from accidentally draining all of their FP because they forgot to deactivate a power.

 

 

And now my own rantings...

 

Force Push, Force Pull

These are basically fine as they are. I would kind of like to see the force pull-slash and force pull-stab moves work effectively, so they cause significant DP damage (they don't seem to at the moment).

 

Force Jump

It would be nice if this cost slightly less.

 

Force Speed

I'd like this to be a toggled power.

I kind of like Tapela's idea of having this automatically deactivate on swing. It would make this most useful for catching up to enemies or attempting an escape. I think it would be cool if a force push on a charging speeder or a pull on an escaping speeder would deactivate their speed as well (besides potentially knocking them down).

 

Force Sense

I'd like this to be a toggled power.

This works pretty well as is. It would be kind of cool if a high-level force sense on a nearby enemy would show their current FP, DP, or both.

 

Absorb

Good as is, I think. I can see this working well as a toggled power.

 

Protect

I agree with Tapela on this one... it should reduce DP costs by a fraction depending on the level of Protect. I think this one would work well toggled as well.

 

Mind Trick

Works just fine. This should be a toggled power.

 

Heal

I mostly agree with Tapela, although I don't think it should necessarily stop during combat. How easy it is to heal/how fast you can convert FP/DP should depend on the level. I'm not so sure about the idea that having your saber drawn penalizes your heal.

 

Lightning

This seems pretty good as-is. Lightning should be saber-blockable if the defender is more-or-less directly facing the attacker. It would also be kind of cool if at very close range, the lightning blocked by the saber would actually reflect back on the attacker (ala Windu vs. Palpatine). Blocking lightning should cost less DP than it does now, but should cost enough to hurt (since it's so expensive in FP for the attacker).

 

Grip

This works fairly well as is. I like Tapela's suggestions on this too.

 

Rage

This should be a toggle power that increases DP damage, but drains FP as well as health. Simple enough. :)

 

Drain

Like Tapela, I wouldn't be sorry to see this go (my least favorite power). It doesn't seem to fit very well in the OJPE system, but if we have to keep it, make it do something like drain enemy FP to increase the DP regen rate (similar to heal). The advantage to using Heal is that it couldn't be blocked by an absorb, the advantage to Drain is that it hurts the enemy in the process.

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Hi Sushi_CW you have some pretty good ideas (sense why didn't I think of that? And drain is a very good idea too, hehe) but I disagree with a few things. Just to clarify I think toggle powers should have a cost to activate, that way players don't abuse things like absorb and toggle it on for 1 second and then off before it drains fp. Lets just say for example Tapela uses Absorb : 5 fp drained, 3 seconds till next 5fp is drained, like a tick.

 

1) Sense if it was as useful as displaying the stats of your opponent would have to cost a little more or something cause that information would help alot in a 1v1 fight.

 

2) Absorb being a drained toggle power would be overpowering if it didnt drain enough fp per second But yeah toggle could work fine as long as its a moderate fp/sec drain rate.

 

3) Protect as a toggle ability would be very very powerful and I'm not sure it would be balanced unless the FP/sec ratio is very high. Guess that would make most lightside toggle abilities and alot of darkside activated.

 

4) Heal being penalized cause of saber drawn plays off razoraces guidelines/ideas about force powers. I think the idea would work best with heal because it healing dp would make it very strong with a saber to protect you being forced into a dodge, so if its reduced by 50 percent or 25 while your saber is ignited its effectiveness is exchanged for protection.

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Here's a nice suggestion.

 

UN-NERF FORCE LIGHTNIG AND GRIP.

 

Seriously. What is wrong with you people?

 

Do you all suck so bad you can't Absorb, Push, Pull, or Lightning somene who tries to Grip you? If I can do that without binding any of them, you really don't have an excuse short of your own ineptitude.

 

And saber lightning absorb... Is this a joke? It's not very funny. If you don't have absorb, YOU PAY THE DAMN PRICE. Or, wait, try this: DRAIN THEM DRY AS THEY LIGHTNING YOU! A novel idea! Make it so that they basically drain their force twice as fast! Except, oh, you all complained about Drain. Grand.

 

*Rolls eyes*

 

Oh, PS: Protect as toggle... HELLO? WHAT DO YOU THINK DRAIN IS THERE FOR!?

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As I mentioned in the saber suggestions thread. The unmodifed grip was a major issue in power duel because the double team could just grip the player and have the other player just slash the soler down before they can even push (there's a delay) the gripper away.

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Doh I guess my post earlier never went through correctly. Anyways I think the powers need to be rebalanced because FP is your life in OJP enhanced and draining it from ranged kind of broke things. It reduced the gameplays speed greatly and generally made it unfun. So I was thinking drain could be made like it is in singleplayer which is more like a grapple move that drains the opponent. The cons would be that you'd have to get up close in melee to use it, the pros would be draining your enemies force by a moderate amount while restoring your own fp/hp. I think people who preffered melee would like it, just an alternative idea for drain, also it could work with a saber activated at a reduced rate or something.

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Personally, I don't think Dark Jedi can stuck FP/DP like vampires. It's a cool move, but not a realistic one.

 

As for drain, for 0.0.9, I just replaced it with lightning so it does the drain effects but does lightning instead of drain damage.

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Well, why should grip/lightning not have auto-protection like push/pull does in basejka? It's not like grip or lightning have any sort of windup period, they're all instant start attacks.

 

Because you can completely nullify them with almost painful ease (Oh wow, 5 damage. *Cry*) and they suck FP greedily?

 

The same does not apply to Push and Pull, since you go into a momentary movement lapse with or without Absorb. But they don't do damage.

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Here's a little idea i had a long long time ago (suggested it for MB but i don't think anybody liked it :p) about jump.

 

Looking at the movies, every time we see jedi do a "force jump" (ie: a really superhuman one) they seem to prepare, so my idea would be modifying jump so it does the following:

 

Level 1: Allows for a force jump.

Level 2: Normal jump x1.5, cheaper force jump, charges faster.

Level 3: Normal jump x2, chapest force jump, fastest charge.

 

Pressing the jump key would be only for non-force jumps (i might've gone a bit low on the values for the upgrades, perhaps x2 and x3 would be better), to perform a force jump you'd crouch and press jump while doing so to start charging it (and spending force, giving a more visual indication on how charged it is). The moment you release crouch the jump triggers. Releasing jump without releasing crouch would abort the jump.

 

The direction you're pressing could decide the direction you're "shot" to, so if you're pressing forward you do the SP speed+jump thing perhaps, while staying still does a very high one, without much direction.

 

This could have the side effect of making it harder to jump away from fights, since you'd be restricted to "low" jumps or having to charge it.

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Because you can completely nullify them with almost painful ease (Oh wow, 5 damage. *Cry*) and they suck FP greedily?

 

The same does not apply to Push and Pull, since you go into a momentary movement lapse with or without Absorb. But they don't do damage.

That doesn't apply to lightning anymore since it now causes knockdown and knockback.

 

As for grip, the fact that the player ends up floating in the air without any sort of protection is much more vulnerable than it used to be due to the lethal nature of being midair and with lethal weapons. The idea of requiring Dodge to be depleted a bit before it can be used to to prevent players from abusing grip on players that have equal or greater force points in those skills. Right now, I suppose you do technically have to be in stun or heavy slow bounce to make it work. Maybe it would be better if it was just based on the current DP level of the player or something.

 

As for Jump, I don't think charging up jump would make the jump better. I remember the original Jedi Knight game and the charging just made it much harder to perform jumps correctly. I like the idea of a vertical based crouch jump thou. Plus, in the movies, we do see the stronger force users jump without much preparation (Dooku, Yoda, Sidius).

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  • 4 weeks later...

Just a thought I've been tinkering around with: in the movies and the books, which have to hold as our only true references, the Force doesn't exist with a Jedi in a pool that he or she can just throw around at anytime. Instead we're given the idea that the Jedi channel the Force. To recreate this, use the saber alt-attack button as a Force-channel button.

 

I know this sounds crazy, especially after the major sabersys revamp, but stick with me.

 

The basic premise would be that when a Jedi-class character enters a game, he is begins with a very small amount of mana, say 0 to 10 on the meter. This value would remain the same until the player presses the alt-attack button. This would cause the player's force meter to charge slowly for the duration the button is held down, until the meter reaches a maximum amout (100 - 200). This charging of the meter, or "channeling of the Force" would cause different things to happen: the player would automatically block incoming projectile and saber attacks, their swings would become faster, they would run/walk faster, jump higher, jump faster, and be able to "Force see". Now, while the button is held down, other force powers would also become available, based on how charged the meter is, and would be accessed by pressing the appropriate key. Basically, the more charged the meter, the more powerful the force power. Also, as a hitch to balance things out a little: I can't be the only one to realize that the dark side powers nerf the light side. The only useful light power is absorb, and that is buggy. Therefore, any use of light side-oriented powers would come off as usual, but the dark side powers, due to the idea that cause a much greater more chaotic flow of energy to flow through the body, would actually do damage to the player who uses them. The greater the power of the dark side power, the health it would drain to use. To balance this, the drain ability would drain health from opponents, instead of FP. As a second counter to this and other effects, the as the force meter charges, the player would become more resistant to powers of a lower charge, and a bonus would be granted to players who could maintain a charged meter by giving them HP for every time interval (say, 30 sec) that they have a charged meter.

 

Now, I know this sounds like players would just run around and blast everyone with force powers, because the powers themselves would cause NO MANA DRAIN to use. BUT, any time a player would take damage, or be affected by a more powerful force power, their meter would begin to drain.

 

You could also add other effects, like making dark side users lower the charging rate of any light side users within a certain radius of them (sort of a KOTOR2 "Sith Lord" effect), and things of the like. Use your imagination.

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So, it would really be more of an concentration meter than a energy meter. I've thought about something like that. The problem I see with it is that it only really works for constant effect powers. Instant powers and such just wouldn't work too good.

 

Secondly, charging up your Force would probably be too slow of a build up compared to the speed of the Force usage in the movies.

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Secondly, charging up your Force would probably be too slow of a build up compared to the speed of the Force usage in the movies.

 

How about starting with a pool of FP automatically then getting more by charging? Like starting with half your potential then needing charging the rest.

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