The Expert Forum

[machievelli]

I also had the impression (rightly or wrongly) that the Republic could have put together an army long before the Clone wars had started if the Senate had not been bogged down in debate.

I.e. they were trying to decide if the Trade federation was really a threat, and if so if it could be dealt with diplomatically, but few of them ever got around to thinking of getting any kind of military force together to deal with it. I got the idea that it was sort of like Europe sitting on its hands in the late 30's/early 40's trying appeasement rather than building an army while Hitler amassed a large and well trained force in plain sight.

 

Their biggest problem was more likely the situation when the Federal Government wanted to have a standing army in the late 1780s. An army can always be used against it's own people. If you figure each planet has it's own navy and army, then the Republic wanted to turn all of those troops over to a leader appointed by the Chancellor or his war council. It's like trying to start an alliance with the war barreling down on you.

 

As for the WWII Analogy, did you notice that Palpatine used exactly the same ploy as Hitler did, the need for 'emergency powers' for an emergency that won't end.

[Jae Onasi]

^

Oh yeah, noticed that Lucas used that. And why not? If it was successful for Hitler, it would work (and did work) in the movie. I wonder how much of his association with Spielberg influences that.

 

@stingerhs--I'm only opining, since this isn't based on anything I've seen in the books/movies (except for the saber-building).

It seems to me that building your own lightsaber is part of the trials or at least part of becoming a full-fledged Jedi (Vader's comments in RoTJ about Luke building his as well as KOTOR). Your list works for me. I imagine that the trials would have to be individualized to some degree because everyone's strengths are different, but I also think there's some minimum bar of skill in all the areas you list that one would have to reach in order to pass. That bar might also float depending on that Jedi's 'specialty'--a lightsaber specialist might have to show more lightsaber skill to pass the trials than someone who specializes in diplomacy or strategy/tactics, but that's just guessing.

[machievelli]

Jae, for something I'm working on that won't be put here:

 

Would someone who claims to see fairies and refuses to accept that they are fictional be defined as fixated or delusional by the shrink?

[Jae Onasi]

Jae, for something I'm working on that won't be put here:

 

Would someone who claims to see fairies and refuses to accept that they are fictional be defined as fixated or delusional by the shrink?

 

Actually, if you want to be anally precise, it's neither--he's (or she's) having a visual hallucination. A hallucination is a distortion in sensory perception (usually auditory--'hearing voices'), while a delusion is a distortion in reasoning. A fixation means someone is stuck in a pattern of thought or activity, like having to wash their hands 18 times in a row or turning a lightswitch on and off 3 times in a row before leaving it on. He might be fixated (or stuck) on the idea that he can see fairies, but the actual seeing of fairies themselves is a visual hallucination. Thinking that everyone is watching him would be a delusion.

If I could only choose between fixated or delusional, however, delusional is closer than fixated.

 

The shrink would probably diagnose him as having some type of schizophrenia (paranoid, undifferentiated, etc, depending on any other symptoms).

http://www.schizophrenia.com has some great info.

[machievelli]

Thanks. I'm working on a story with the idea that Fairies are an actual offshoot of humanity that went down in size rather than larger, and have a native form of magic so only a very small percentage would be able to actually preceive as what they really are. The rest of us would only see some kid of 'bug' we can't identify.

[DarthSaboteur]

@ stingerhs, Jae Onasi: Actually, the Jedi Trials consisted of trials of skill(i.e: fighting dark side apparitions), flesh(i.e: overcoming physical pain and loss), courage(i.e: completing missions with very low chances of success), and spirit(i.e: Luke not turning to the dark side on the Death Star 2).

[Jae Onasi]

Well, I asked my hubby today, who is in the Army reserve, "Honey, about how long do you think it would take to write a debriefing on a ship explosion?"

His reply: "I don't know dear, I've never experienced a ship explosion."

We'd been travelling in a car for about 8 hours to get to family by the time I'd asked that and I was/am seriously overtired. When he gave the perfectly deadpan answer, I about fell out of my seat laughing.

So much for his expertise.

[machievelli]

Define the parameters. Are you talking about the debrieifing of one survivor or witness? The actual report that will go to the Court of Inquiry? or the final ruling by that court?

As an example the witness reports of the destruction of USS Maine were filed in the first 30 days after the explosion, but the report delivered to the court took almost 8 months, and the court itself didn't file it's report for over two years.

[Jae Onasi]

I was thinking "what happened in the 9 minutes you were infiltrating the enemy ship before you found the explosive device and got the h*ll out of there." It was a very short mission.

[machievelli]

I was thinking "what happened in the 9 minutes you were infiltrating the enemy ship before you found the explosive device and got the h*ll out of there." It was a very short mission.

 

 

All right, we're having a terminology problem. It is what is called an after action report. The standard is to have an intelligence officer walk you thorugh what you did, someone else doing the same for every member of your party. They question you until they are satisfied. All these reports are then collated, and assembled into a coherent mass.

 

In the book Once a Hero, Elizabeth Moon went through it quite extensively. When the person had said something specific, and it couldn't be verified, they went over it again. Such as 'if you were on the bridge resetting the codeword for missile access at this time, how could you be here on your ship five minutes later, when it is impossible to walk that distance in time'.

 

This process take a hell of a long time. As I mentioned above, the Maine Incident report did not come out until after the Spanish American War. Even then, the answer they came up with (Spanish Attack) was incorrect as recent findings have shown.

 

As an even worse example, in a book lambasting the government for lying to it's people, Admiral Theobold commented that there were six investigations into what happened at Pearl Harbor, none of which adequately covered the facts, and what was known in 1953 when he wrote it. According to all of those inquiries, it was still Kimmel and Short's fault.

[Jae Onasi]

I learn something new every day.

It's not important to the storyline itself, I just like to have the little details accurate, too. Thanks!

[machievelli]

In my last critical review, I commented about someone using a rather odd version of torture. I think, while most of us might be appalled, I am going to cover that today.

 

The first thing to remember is that torture only works in one specific situation. That is when you want information that is both time sensitive, and can be answered by a single yes or no question. It is brutal, extemely painful, and otherwise usless. There are much better interogation techniques including sensory deprivation and drugs that work a lot faster and without a lot of the pain. They may not be as fast, but they work.

 

Unfortunately,there are always those that want to hurt someone else. They are the bulk of torturers. But they are by no means the worst of the lot. These are the kind that beat up on you because they can, nothing more. When it comes time for them to torment someone, they need direction to assure that they don't have a bit too much fun and murder the victim.

 

The worst however are the sociopaths who tend to run such operations. To a sociopath no one beyond himself is really important, so inflicting pain does not give him a thrill, or disgust. He is just doing what he wants to do. When someone is being tortured systematically, it is usually a sociopath who is directing it.

 

The character in the story I mentioned reminded me more of a spoiled brat. Sort of like Darth Vader saying, 'yeah, I'm mean, and if I want to hurt you I will'. His torture was neither organized nor systematic. He was demanding answers, but at the same time you knew he would have continued even if they had told him everything. This is a common flaw with people that write about such things without researching it. When Lucas had Princess Leia tortured in A New Hope, it was obvious even if we didn't see it. In The Empire Strikes Back, Han Solo mentioned it in that 'they don't seem to want answers' meaning he could see what was wrong with their methods.

 

If you are going to use a torture scene, read up on the subject. The one thing you will discover is that a lot of things you might define as torture is not because prisoner interrogation is not the same as the American Legal system where they can't even question you if you demand a lawyer.

 

Don't go in for the hot iron and bamboo shoots if you villain had other options. I figure if I had 25,000 years of historical experience behind me, I wouldn't use something so mundane.

 

As an example, read the KOTOR excerpt scene where Saul is torturing the members of the Ebon Hawk crew.

[JediMaster12]

To add on, often I have noticed that mental and emotional torture is far more effective than physical torture. Sometimes all three achieve the same objective though I have not had the unpleasant experience of that. Ohysical intimidation is an effective tool as well. You can show it and if you have enough bark behind it, it can scare a person who is rather weak willed.

As to researching on torture, read up on kiddnappings especially of Americans being kidnapped by the guerilla groups in Columbia and other South American countries. Fictional novels set in south America make references to military regimes and such and the force used to maintain order. One such novel is The House of the Spirits by Isabel Allende who lived in Chile during the time of Pinoche.

History provides some good examples of military regimes and often some interesting insights as to how they kept law and order, in their words. Sometimes torture is mentioned as well. One could be such as in El Salvador during the time of the war in the 80's I think. They would torture and kill their intellectuals in gruesome ways like with jumper cables, beatings and rape. Just some thoughts and add ins since I have read first hand accounts of kidnappings and torture. Just remember that methods differ between different groups and regions.

[machievelli]

History provides some good examples of military regimes and often some interesting insights as to how they kept law and order, in their words. Sometimes torture is mentioned as well. One could be such as in El Salvador during the time of the war in the 80's I think. They would torture and kill their intellectuals in gruesome ways like with jumper cables, beatings and rape. Just some thoughts and add ins since I have read first hand accounts of kidnappings and torture. Just remember that methods differ between different groups and regions.

 

The worst part of torture by a government of it's own is, now get this because it is true;

 

Not illegal.

 

When the original UN rules about both Genocide and Torture were accepted, the term Genocide was defined as mass slaughter for 'religious or military reasons'. Meaning the Russians weren't in violation running the Gulags. When it came to torture, it was defined as 'extension beyond present days laws' If your laws allows torture, in other words, you are not in violation of International law.

[JediMaster12]

And the funny thing is we condemn what some of our soldiers did to POWs in Iraq and are outraged by what the insurgents do in return. Heck I mentioned the rules of warfare to the males of my family and all I got was, "In war there are no rules." Funny eh?

[Jae Onasi]

The insurgents were doing some really nasty things long before we did anything at Abu Ghraib. They choose to use Abu Ghraib and other events as excuses to continue their attacks. At least we _try_ to follow the Geneva convention. It's never going to be perfect, because when you're guarding the guy who just killed a bunch of friends in your unit, it's tough controlling your emotions enough to not wring the guy's neck.

 

There is one rule in war: Kill them before they kill us.

[machievelli]

The insurgents were doing some really nasty things long before we did anything at Abu Ghraib. They choose to use Abu Ghraib and other events as excuses to continue their attacks. At least we _try_ to follow the Geneva convention. It's never going to be perfect, because when you're guarding the guy who just killed a bunch of friends in your unit, it's tough controlling your emotions enough to not wring the guy's neck.

 

There is one rule in war: Kill them before they kill us.

 

One of the things I have been working on it an historical overview of war crimes and war crimes trials. What I have found out is that we have yet to have a war crimes trial that has not been driven by political motivation. I can leave out Saddam and Milosovich in this regard because A: Milosovich was being tried by an international tribunal, and B: Saddams trial is based on incidents within his own country which by definition are not War Crimes.

 

What interested me more was the fact that in WWI the British violated international law, then whined because the Germans took the only option available in that situation.

 

As for your family JM12, that is almost a quote from Winston Chruchill, the man that ordered that original violation. 'In a war of survival there are no rules'.

[Jae Onasi]

Mach (or anyone into Navy)--got any mutiny tips for me? My enterprising Sith Lord has managed to corrupt some captains and they're coming in their ships with the rest of a Republic force, only to turn on them when they arrive on site.

[RedHawke]

Mach (or anyone into Navy)--got any mutiny tips for me? My enterprising Sith Lord has managed to corrupt some captains and they're coming in their ships with the rest of a Republic force, only to turn on them when they arrive on site.

My following suggestion comes from my adventures with the West End Games D6 Star Wars RPG;

 

I had an Imperial Remnant fleet persuing me one time of an Executor class Star Dreadnought, and twelve Imperator class Star Destroyers, I just had my one Battlestar at the time (yes a ship like the Galactica)... the rest of our group were each off on their own doing the Scooby Doo thing. Luckily for me I was ready.

 

RedHawke used Control Minds in conjunction with a few others, namely a little preparation with Rage and Concentrate, spent a Force Point and 'corrupted' the crew of the whole fleet... had to kill the Dark Jedi/Sith Wannabe on the Dreadnought, and his apprentice, but his normal minions weren't helping him any. As they now saw things my way.

 

I made off with all those ships... the Star Dreadnought (Super Star Destroyer) was called the Harbinger and I definately transferred my 'flag' to that ship after that event, 17.6 kilometers of sheer terror, yup it was quite a game. The GM wanted my hide afterward as I took out his main villan in a quick duel and easily aquired all his ships.

 

Anyway, for what it is worth... I hope it helps.

[Jae Onasi]

That is just Evil. Sounds just like something Jolee would do.

Reminds me of a time when a friend of mine played an Oriental D&D campaign. This monk character leveled up and had to take a taboo, and so the player decided the monk wouldn't wear anything in the color 'a mauvey shade of pinky russet.' Well, weeks later, he'd pretty much forgotten about that, and thought everyone else had, too. Until the DM had them kill something and get treasure. In the pile of loot there was a magic obi the guy really wanted. The DM looked at him with a wicked grin and said, "It's a mauvey shade of pinky russet."

[machievelli]

Mach (or anyone into Navy)--got any mutiny tips for me? My enterprising Sith Lord has managed to corrupt some captains and they're coming in their ships with the rest of a Republic force, only to turn on them when they arrive on site.

 

First thing to remember is that you need more than a captain. On a ship the size of say a Star Destroyer, you would need a minimum of ten officers and senior ratings who are in on it.

 

These people would have to be in positions of authority sufficient to pull it off in the necessary departments (Scan, command, engineering, weapons, Marines if any) and capable of giving the orders and expecting them to be obeyed.

 

To get them to fight their own fleet you will need a rationale. Unlike the scene in Revenge of the Sith you don't have men programmed to immediately obey. So come up with a reason for an enemy to be in charge of those other ships, and use it. A good way is faked signals suggesting that the Admiral in charge of the fleet is himself in mutiny, and you are trying to restrain him.

 

If you read that section of Republic Dawn, you will notice that the mutineers claimed that the Jedi were attacking. It was only officers outside the conspiracy unwilling to accept the situation and orders that saved that situation.

 

Once the fighting starts, it is unlikely that there will be a counter mutiny, because you would need to communicate to the crew that they are attacking their own ships, and organize a resistance aboard. An excellent series of books giving you that situation are Winning Colors and Once a Hero by Elizabeth Moon. Moon herself was a serving officer in the Marines if I remember correctly.

[Jae Onasi]

Thanks. I was thinking a few small ships actually--nothing huge like a Star Destroyer where I'd have to have a ton of people involved. My Sith Lord was planning on taking over the Navy at some point (in much the same manner that Palpatine moved up the Senate ranks to take over the Republic), so he's started to arrange to have allies placed in higher ranks. I may have created a continuity error already and I haven't even begun my next chapter. Ah well, that's what the edit button's for.

Yes, I did read that part in Republic Dawn (actually, the whole piece) and enjoyed it very much. I found the whole sequence of events fascinating to follow.

[machievelli]

The numbers would not change much regardless of size of the ship.

[JediAthos]

If anyone has any good resources on sword fighting I would appreciate it if they would share. I'm attempting to script the final battle of my story and it is not going very well at this point. I attempted to locate some web sources on fencing but haven't been very successful.

[machievelli]

If anyone has any good resources on sword fighting I would appreciate it if they would share. I'm attempting to script the final battle of my story and it is not going very well at this point. I attempted to locate some web sources on fencing but haven't been very successful.

 

The best sources would be a book on Kendo, since the jedi style is closer to it than anything else. If you send specific scenes, perhaps I or we can help more.