The Sith'ari

[Char Ell]

Well, since nobody provided any other sources I broke down and picked up a copy of Star Wars: The New Essential Chronology. I read through the first 31 pages, covering 25,000-1,000 BBY and found no mention of the Sith'ari prophecy. I don't know what the Wookieepedia article used from TNEC but I think this demonstrates another weakness with wikis; lack of proper source citation. My guess is that the article cites TNEC for its Chosen One references.

It is said in Sith legend that the 'Sith'ari'... the perfect being... will one day lead us.

The legends say the Sith'ari will destroy us... and make us stronger than ever.

So if all this hullabaloo is about these two sentences from one character in KotOR I'm astounded by how much people have read into it. If anything this thread has served as a real-life lesson for me on how people will leap across massive evidentiary holes to reach a conclusion. Perhaps the Sith'ari legend is about Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader but I don't think so. Prime has made very strong and compelling arguments to the contrary.

It is said in Sith legend that the 'Sith'ari'... the perfect being... will one day lead us.

I don't see how Vader with his mechanical arms and legs was the perfect being, unless you define "perfect being" as being conceived by the Force. And as Prime stated, Vader never led the Sith, it was the Emperor/Sidious who was the Sith master.

The legends say the Sith'ari will destroy us... and make us stronger than ever.

If the order of the above sentence is accurate then Vader isn't the guy. As Korfredonn The Ecclesiastes and Prime have already stated, Vader made the Sith stronger (by following Sidious' orders to destroy the Jedi) then destroyed the Sith when he threw Sidious into the bowels of the second Death Star and himself died a short while later. Of course if one chooses to believe the order of Yuthura's statement isn't important and only finding someone in SW lore that destroyed the Sith as well as made them stronger then Vader could be the guy. What I will say is that Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader is the closest fit for the Sith'ari legend related by Yuthura Ban but he still doesn't fit the description provided.

 

I still think if the only reference to the Sith'ari legend is in KotOR then future KotOR games may expand more on the concept.

Vader destroyed Palps while being hit full force with force lighting from a Sith whose force lighting left Luke writhing on the floor in agony, sent Yoda flying across a room, and shot Mace Windu across a large chunk of a city.

As you may recall, Vader grabbed Sidious from behind and the force lightning emanating from Sidious' hands flowed back down across Sidious' body and then over Vader's armored form, hardly the "full force" attack suffered by Mace Windu, Yoda, and Luke Skywalker.

If Palps was more powerful wouldn't he have won the fight?

What fight? The simple fact of the matter is Sidious was too focused on frying Luke to realize his apprentice was about to betray him. If Sidious and Vader had faced off in a regular challenge where both were prepared for combat I fully expect Sidous would have soundly defeated Vader.

[Jae Onasi]

(snipped a bit)

But we aren't talking about the inconsistencies in the actually story, but the inconsistencies of random fans adding inaccurate or unproven ideas into wookieepedia.

 

Sure. There are always going to be inconsistencies, but it is the purpose of LL to prevent those as much as possible. And one of the problems with wookieepedia is that it out of the control of LL, and so not validated to the same degree, if at all.

 

Basically, it is up to the other fans to call bull****.

 

 

My bad in communicating--when I wrote that, I was thinking about appreciating the irony of all the serious debate over proper citations to an entirely fictional universe, which has its own continuity problems and contradictions, as if it were some serious, world-altering academic subject like the cure for AIDS or solution for world peace. I just didn't say it quite right the first time around because I was trying to type that at work in my bits of free time that are scattered throughout the day.

Since wookie-and wikipedia are talking about a fictional universe anyway, I'm not too worried if they say something wrong (unless they outright lie, then I'd call them on it). I'd demand accuracy out of a journal article on how to treat eye infections, for instance, because mistakes in something like that could cause people serious damage. For a piece of fiction, however, I'm not going to get nearly as excited if they get something wrong, even though I'm a pretty big fan and want it correct as much as possible. If they speculate, I'd like them to label it as such. If an error is found, I'd like them to correct it. If I ever did another research paper on SW (did one in Religion class in college), I wouldn't use the -pedias anyway--I'd go directly to the source. And yes, since I get into the same kinds of debates about some really trivial SW things (my friends and I had some spirited debates over what color Luke's lightsaber would be in RotJ, for instance) and have been a serious fan since it came out in '77, I can laugh at myself for that irony, too.

[DarthOxyClean]

But we aren't talking about the inconsistencies in the actually story, but the inconsistencies of random fans adding inaccurate or unproven ideas into wookieepedia.[/Quote]

 

Actually, I think that we are supposed to be talking about the Sith'ari. There is already a thread about Wikipedia's trustworthyness here.

 

It really seems as if the Chosen One prophecy and the Sith'ari prophecys are just different versions of the same prophecy.

 

The Chosen One prophecy stated that one strong in the Force would bring balance to the Force and destroy the Sith.

 

The Sith'ari stated that a being would destroy the Sith and make them more powerfull.

 

Anakin Skywalker fufilled both of these prophecys. He destroyed the Sith, brought balance to the Force, and made the Sith more stronger (although I don't know if he made them stronger by being a Sith, or destroying them).

 

That's just my measly thoughts.

[DSharrah]

I would imagine that if you are going to discuss the Sith'ari prophecy...the big questions that you have to ask are:

 

1. Is the Jedi chosen one/Sith Sith'ari one in the same...

2. Was the order of Yuthura words important...

3. Who would fit the bill...

 

My answers

 

1. I do no think that the Jedi chosen one and Sith Sith'ari prophecies are one in the same. My only reason behind this is that the groups differing views make it hard for me to see them agreeing on anything.

 

2. I do think that the order of the prophecy is important...which means destroy to make stronger...

 

3. Possible candidates

a. Anakin - according to source material Darth Vader destroys P and then dies him self, ending the Sith threat. No sith around to make them stronger...

 

b. Revan - canonical ending is Revan light side...

 

c. the Exile - definetly a possibility considering he destroys both the Jedi and Sith...and has the choice to "rebuild an order" as he sees fit...

[Prime]

Even if Lucas said that Vader was 80% as powerful as Palps, that just doesn't stand up to logic. Vader destroyed Palps while being hit full force with force lighting from a Sith whose force lighting left Luke writhing on the floor in agony, sent Yoda flying across a room, and shot Mace Windu across a large chunk of a city. If Palps was more powerful wouldn't he have won the fight?

So Vader is more powerful because he in essense "sucker punched" the emperor? The only thing Vader did in that situation of note was that he "took it" for a few seconds. He then died, of course.

 

He destroyed the Jedi order, allowing the Sith to rule the galaxy. Sounds like he made them more powerful to me. Once destroyed, there would be no Sith to make more powerful, so he had to make them more powerful before he destroyed them. And that's just what he did.

This makes no sense.

 

Even with ignoring that Palpatine was more powerful, you have yet to show how the extinction of the Sith somehow makes them more powerful. How does making them more powerful before their destruction equal making them more powerful after, which is what is required for Vader to fulfill that prophecy?

 

Actually, I think that we are supposed to be talking about the Sith'ari. There is already a thread about Wikipedia's trustworthyness here.

Yes, but debating the validity of the source of the material on wookieepedia is relevant to the discussion.

 

It really seems as if the Chosen One prophecy and the Sith'ari prophecys are just different versions of the same prophecy.

 

The Chosen One prophecy stated that one strong in the Force would bring balance to the Force and destroy the Sith.

 

The Sith'ari stated that a being would destroy the Sith and make them more powerfull.

But balancing the Force is a result of destroying the Sith, and thus the dark side (since the dark side is a corruption of the natural balance of the Force). With no dark side and no Sith, how are they more powerful?

 

So I ask those who believe that Anakin is the Sith'ari: Upon the death of Vader and Palpatine, how are the Sith more powerful than they were before that point?

[DarthOxyClean]

But balancing the Force is a result of destroying the Sith, and thus the dark side (since the dark side is a corruption of the natural balance of the Force).

 

You could also argue that the Light side is also a corruption, and (If the Jedi immensely out number the Sith or Darkside users) destroying the Jedi could also balance the force.

 

After the events of KOTOR 2, when there were no Sith and no Jedi left (that is canonical event) the Force could have been in balance. (I don't think so, but it is possible)

 

The Force is, well, like a....see-saw..???? Ok, see-saw. When the Force is in balance, well, the..um, see-saw is perfectly horizontal.

 

The Force:

 

Before Battle of Naboo: Light Side of the Force immensely greater than darkside; See-saw: unbalanced, greater Light Side amount

 

Battle of Naboo-Ep. II: Darkside increasing; See-Saw: slowly balancing

 

Clone Wars-Ep. III: Darkside greater than lightside; See-saw: un balanced, greater dark side amount

 

Ep. III-Battle of Endor: Darkside greater than lightside; See-saw: un-balanced

 

Vader dies: Force is balanced, See-saw: perfectly horizontal

 

Then of course, it becomes unbalanced again once the Jedi are renewed.

 

Sorry for the lame "see-saw" analogy, but that is how I view the Force's state. It will never stay balanced for long, due to the constant shifts in light and dark side amounts.

[Jabba da Butt]

you guys all have a point, but im thouroughly convinced that Anakin is not the Sith'ari. He didn't destroy the sith and make them stronger, he made them stronger and then destroyed them. Besides, he wasn't what a sith would call perfect, because in the end he came to the light side again, and that is the opposite of what a sith would want in their "perfect" leader.

The sith'ari could just be some interesting dialogue put into Kotor for no reason. Or it could be a plotline for something else.....

[Prime]

You could also argue that the Light side is also a corruption, and (If the Jedi immensely out number the Sith or Darkside users) destroying the Jedi could also balance the force.

This has been discussed at length around here already. You can do a search to see what was discussed before if you are interested.

 

The short answer is that the presense of the Sith and the dark side are what creates an imbalance to the natural balanced state of the regular force. There really isn't a light side per se, only the force and the dark side.

 

Ask yourself this, if what you say is true, does the Jedi's actions regarding Anakin make any sense whatsoever?

[DarthOxyClean]

Ask yourself this, if what you say is true, does the Jedi's actions regarding Anakin make any sense whatsoever?

 

Which actions are you speaking of?

[Darth InSidious]

Surely it is arguable that Revan is the Sith'ari. After all he destroys the Sith by leaving, according to TSL,and after leaving, Traya, Sion and Nihilus virtuallly destroy the Jedi, each of them becoming incredibly powerful, possibly more powerful than any single Force user until then...?

 

*ducks from rotten fruit barrage*

[Prime]

Which actions are you speaking of?

The act of training Anakin.

[DarthOxyClean]

The act of training Anakin.

 

Ah. Well, do we know for sure that the Jedi knew about the Sith'ari prophecy??

 

The Jedi's desperate belief in a Chosen One overruled their fears about Anakin's future, which ultimatly sealed their fate.

[deathdisco]

Prime, I'm going to have to disagree with you. I believe both prophecies are of the same person(Anakin). If I remember correctly the Jedi’s version did not pan out as they thought either.

...it was said that you would destroy the Sith not join them, bring balance to the Force not leave it in darkness.

The Force will complete the prophecy as it sees fit.

[Darth Krayt]

Wookiepedia is not always right, but many things are true!

People who want to know everything about the True Sith Empire and Sith'ari should go to Hyperspace @Starwars.com,

 

 

But one of the most interesting thing i have red is this:

 

 

http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b10003/23803387/p1

 

It's about the True Sith Empire and other pre-Republic races: Kwa, Celestials, Killik

[Prime]

Ah. Well, do we know for sure that the Jedi knew about the Sith'ari prophecy??

It doesn't matter if they did or not. Training Anakin would still make no sense if your "see-saw" analogy was true.

 

The Jedi's desperate belief in a Chosen One overruled their fears about Anakin's future, which ultimatly sealed their fate.

But that's the thing. If the Force really worked as a light/dark numbers game, then the Jedi would know that by being by far the most numerous, they were the ones causing the Force to be unbalanced. They know there can't be more than two Sith, and at that time they assumed they were extinct, meaning that they were unbalancing the Force as much as was possible.

 

So Anakin comes along who they believe is the Chosen One, who is supposed to bring balance to the Force. In your case, what would that require? The destruction of the Jedi Order! Why on earth would Qui-Gon and the rest of the Jedi be so hell bent (to the point of ignoring their own rules) on training someone who they know will destroy them?

 

Would that make any sense whatsoever?

 

Also, since Luke is alive at the end, how did Anakin balance everything out when he died? There is still more light than dark again!

 

Prime, I'm going to have to disagree with you. I believe both prophecies are of the same person(Anakin). If I remember correctly the Jedi’s version did not pan out as they thought either.

Actually, it panned out exactly as it was written (or at least the way we are told). Anakin did indeed fulfill the Chosen One prophecy by destroying the Sith and thus bringing balance to the Force when he killed the emperor, was redeemed, and died.

 

The problem was the Jedi did not realize the path he would take on the road to fulfilling the prophecy.

 

Quote:

...it was said that you would destroy the Sith not join them, bring balance to the Force not leave it in darkness.

And herein lies the problem. Kenobi and presumably the other Jedi assumed that destroying the Sith meant that the Chosen One would never join them. On the surface that makes sense, but the prophecy never actually says that he wouldn't join them. It only says that he will destroy them. It was that mistaken assumption of the Jedi that proved to be fatal to them.

 

The Force will complete the prophecy as it sees fit.

But like all Star Wars movie prophecies, they come true, but not as you expect. For example, Padme did die in childbirth, just as Anakin fortold. But not for the reasons he assumed.

[DarthOxyClean]

But that's the thing. If the Force really worked as a light/dark numbers game, then the Jedi would know that by being by far the most numerous, they were the ones causing the Force to be unbalanced. They know there can't be more than two Sith, and at that time they assumed they were extinct, meaning that they were unbalancing the Force as much as was possible.

 

So Anakin comes along who they believe is the Chosen One, who is supposed to bring balance to the Force. In your case, what would that require? The destruction of the Jedi Order! Why on earth would Qui-Gon and the rest of the Jedi be so hell bent (to the point of ignoring their own rules) on training someone who they know will destroy them? [/Quote]

 

How would they know that he would destroy them? They don't see the Force in the way I do, which is the see-saw analogy. I have no idea how they view it.

 

My point is, the Jedi had grown ignorant. The felt safe and content. They couldn't imagine ever being destroyed. They thought that training Anakin would balance the Force, but they thought that he had to be a Jedi to do so, thinking that he never could have joined the Sith. The thought that there were no Sith, and that by training Anakin as a jedi, he would remain in the Light. They had no idea what "bringing balance to the Force" meant. They assumed it was destroying the Sith after Naboo. The dark side was clouding everything also, making it harder for Yoda to look into the future.

 

The Jedi had no idea what would happen.

 

Also, the status of the Force could depend on how many good acts and evil acts there are in the universe.

[Darth InSidious]

...Or how many echoes there are.

 

While I am loath to use Kreia as 'evidence' in these matters, the Jedi in TSL also mention wounds/echoes.

 

Over 4000 years, many more violent Jedi and Sith deaths occur (Seventh Battle of Ruusan, for example...), and it is possible that all these wounds cause the Force itself to be weaker...or more difficult to hear, is it not?

[Darkkender]

I find it interesting that part of this argument consists of Canon movie materials vs Canon EU materials. Now I won't deny I'm entirely of the opinion that It was Luke who restored the balance to the force by convincing Anakin he still had good in him but that is an entirely different argument than this that I won't carry on here.

 

But I would have to support the fact that as of yet there is nothing that supports the claim that Anakin is the Sith'ari. Now do the remnants of the sith that that follow after Anakin in the EU have any likely hood of being stronger than Anakin and thus making the Sith stronger? I doubt that.

 

The fact that the only real mention of the Sith'Ari prophecy was in Kotor 1 would lead me to believe that it was an intentianal plot point for the Kotor games that was left in there. The movies focused on the "Chosen One" prophecy heavily. If the definition of Sith'Ari is to be believed that it means lord then maybe TSL was a further lead up to this very topic without any real explanation of the Sith'Ari included.

 

I would have to say there is not enough supporting evidence to place Anakin as the Sith'Ari as compared to the Anakin is the Chosen One which has enough arguments and facts on both sides of the scale.

[DarthOxyClean]

I find it interesting that part of this argument consists of Canon movie materials vs Canon EU materials. Now I won't deny I'm entirely of the opinion that It was Luke who restored the balance to the force by convincing Anakin he still had good in him but that is an entirely different argument than this that I won't carry on here.

 

But I would have to support the fact that as of yet there is nothing that supports the claim that Anakin is the Sith'ari. Now do the remnants of the sith that that follow after Anakin in the EU have any likely hood of being stronger than Anakin and thus making the Sith stronger? I doubt that.

 

The fact that the only real mention of the Sith'Ari prophecy was in Kotor 1 would lead me to believe that it was an intentianal plot point for the Kotor games that was left in there. The movies focused on the "Chosen One" prophecy heavily. If the definition of Sith'Ari is to be believed that it means lord then maybe TSL was a further lead up to this very topic without any real explanation of the Sith'Ari included.

 

I would have to say there is not enough supporting evidence to place Anakin as the Sith'Ari as compared to the Anakin is the Chosen One which has enough arguments and facts on both sides of the scale.

 

Well said Darkender. I pretty much agree with you about the Sith'ari being used for the KOTOR plotlines.

[deathdisco]

{snip}

The problem was the Jedi did not realize the path he would take on the road to fulfilling the prophecy.

{snip}

And herein lies the problem. Kenobi and presumably the other Jedi assumed that destroying the Sith meant that the Chosen One would never join them. On the surface that makes sense, but the prophecy never actually says that he wouldn't join them. It only says that he will destroy them. It was that mistaken assumption of the Jedi that proved to be fatal to them.

 

I believe the Sith prophecy was a "mistaken assumption". Both sects (Jedi/Sith) had a parallel prophecy told from each of their prospective (much like many religions). One had to be wrong and the Force threw the Jedi a very wicked curve.

 

The fact that the only real mention of the Sith'Ari prophecy was in Kotor 1 would lead me to believe that it was an intentianal plot point for the Kotor games that was left in there. The movies focused on the "Chosen One" prophecy heavily. If the definition of Sith'Ari is to be believed that it means lord then maybe TSL was a further lead up to this very topic without any real explanation of the Sith'Ari included.

 

It seems to me Obsidian was just trying to connect KOTOR to the PT/OT by introducing the Sith version of the prophecy. But since it's such a small point so far in the KOTOR storyline we're probably making way too much of it.

 

EDIT: I'm currently reading Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader and came across this passage.

 

Sidious remembering the trip back from Mustafar:

He recalled thinking: What if Anakin should die? How many years would he have to search for an apprentice even half as powerful in the Force, let alone one created by the Force itself to restore balance, by allowing the dark side to percolate fully to the surface aftera millennium of being stifled?

I bolded the interesting part.

[Prime]

How would they know that he would destroy them?

They didn't know, and probably had no way to know. Isn't it funny how things work?

 

They don't see the Force in the way I do, which is the see-saw analogy. I have no idea how they view it.

They viewed as the natural Force and dark side, as I pointed out previously.

 

They had no idea what "bringing balance to the Force" meant. They assumed it was destroying the Sith after Naboo.

And they were right in both cases. Again, they just did not forsee the path things would take to get there.

 

Also, the status of the Force could depend on how many good acts and evil acts there are in the universe.

Now you are just making stuff up.

 

quote: let alone one created by the Force itself to restore balance, by allowing the dark side to percolate fully to the surface aftera millennium of being stifled?

That is indeed very interesting (thanks for posting that deathdisco), for two reasons: first, that statement appears to say (as most would have suspected) that the claim that Plageus created Anakin is indeed false. Second, the Sith had their own view of what balance ment.

 

In the end it still turns out that the Sith view is incorrect. Ultimately, Anakin completely destroyed the Sith (as the Chosen One prophecy states), but did not completely destroy the Jedi (Luke remained). In the end only Luke and the "light side" (or more correctly, the natural state of the Force) remained. So in the "numbers game idea" there is still no balance.

[DarthOxyClean]

Now you are just making stuff up. [/Quote]

 

I believe the correct term is "speculating".

 

in the end it still turns out that the Sith view is incorrect. Ultimately, Anakin completely destroyed the Sith (as the Chosen One prophecy states), but did not completely destroy the Jedi (Luke remained). In the end only Luke and the "light side" (or more correctly, the natural state of the Force) remained. So in the "numbers game idea" there is still no balance.

 

You know what, lets just call up George and ask him what the definition of "in balance" is. He is the only person who can really answer that. On second thought, we don't have his number. I do remember hearing George talking about the "balance", but I can't remember ahere it was or what he said. Does anybody know about that?

 

Anyways, I don't think that the Force can be balanced for any amount of time. There will always be more of one side than the other. The Jedi grow too numerous, and their numbers diminish, then the Sith grow too numerous, and then their numbers diminish, then the Jedi grow too numerous, then their numbers diminish, etc. Its the Force's version of a life cycle; just like wolves eat moose, which lowers the population of moose, then the wolves die because of the lack of moose, so the moose population rises. I've been searching for the correct scientific name for this chain of events for an hour, but i can't find it.

[deathdisco]

That is indeed very interesting (thanks for posting that deathdisco), for two reasons: first, that statement appears to say (as most would have suspected) that the claim that Plageus created Anakin is indeed false. Second, the Sith had their own view of what balance ment.

 

Then I should add to the original quote from the book with this:

He recalled thinking: What if Anakin should die? How many years would he have to search for an apprentice even half as powerful in the Force, let alone one created by the Force itself to restore balance, by allowing the dark side to percolate fully to the surface aftera millennium of being stifled? None would be found. Sidious would have to discover a way to compel midi-chorians to do his bidding, and bring into being one as powerful as Anakin. {snip}..... For thousands of years, the ability to survive death had been perused by Sith and Jedi alike, and no one had been successful in discovering the secret. Beings had been saved from dying, but no one had cheated death. The most powerful of the ancient Sith lords had known the secret, but it had been lost, or rather, misplaced.

 

Don't know if that makes things clearer or not since there is no reference to Plagieous(sp?) and what he may have known in that passage.

 

You know what, lets just call up George and ask him what the definition of "in balance" is. He is the only person who can really answer that. On second thought, we don't have his number. I do remember hearing George talking about the "balance", but I can't remember ahere it was or what he said. Does anybody know about that?

 

George said Anakin fulfiled the prophecy and brought balance to the Force by destroying the Sith. It may have been on one of the DVD comentaries or bonus material.

[DarthOxyClean]

What I meant was if George Lucas explained what "Force in balance" meant.

[Darth Krayt]

The only reason there were Sith on Korriban is because the True Sith didn't have a Hyperdrive! And so they put a colony on Korriban, they were "runnin" from the Celestials! and if they had a hyperdrive they didn't made "a pit-stop" on Korriban!

That's my cal!