The Sith'ari

[Prime]

You know what, lets just call up George and ask him what the definition of "in balance" is. He is the only person who can really answer that.

He has already answered it on the small documentary on the VHS special edition of ANH:

 

"Which brings us up to the films 4, 5, and 6, in which Anakin's offspring redeem him and allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings Balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe..."

[The Source]

^^^^

That is intresting. After Luke convinced Vader to turn, Vader kills Palpatine, and then the Force is balanced? Does that mean that Luke was a neutral Jedi? If he was a lightsider, this would make the Force unbalanced. The Force would be lightside heavy.

 

Not to mention Leia. She was also a potential Jedi at the end of Return of the Jedi. Therefore, could Luke be a lightsider, and Leia be a potential darksider? There could be a balance there.

 

If we go by EU, could Mara Jade be Luke's potential equal?

[deathdisco]

^^^^

There is no "Lightside". There is just the Force and the Darkside is a corruption of the Force. When you remove the corruption you have balance.

[Prime]

That is intresting. After Luke convinced Vader to turn, Vader kills Palpatine, and then the Force is balanced? Does that mean that Luke was a neutral Jedi? If he was a lightsider, this would make the Force unbalanced. The Force would be lightside heavy.

 

Not to mention Leia. She was also a potential Jedi at the end of Return of the Jedi. Therefore, could Luke be a lightsider, and Leia be a potential darksider? There could be a balance there.

 

If we go by EU, could Mara Jade be Luke's potential equal?

You are completely missing the point. The balance of the Force is not a numbers game!

 

^^^^

There is no "Lightside". There is just the Force and the Darkside is a corruption of the Force. When you remove the corruption you have balance.

That is exactly what I have been trying to point out!

[DarthOxyClean]

That is exactly what I have been trying to point out!

 

Oh. Well why didn't you just say so? I agree with you on that.

[Lord of Hunger]

Hi. Since I didn't want to waste forum space by creating a new thread, I decided to post in this one instead.

 

In my post I will attempt to not address the issues presented here but prove via logic and evidence that Darth Revan is without a doubt Sith'ari. He fulfills the following three qualifications:

 

1) Free of restrictions. This is something that immediately disqualifies Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. He was limited physically by his suit and mentally by Darth Sidious' control. Darth Bane has a historic limitation in that he is a product of Revan's legacy. Revan not only was true to himself and above the aspects of Light and Dark, but was only temporarily limited by the mind whip by the Jedi Council. He was in prime physical condition as well.

 

2) Destroy the Sith and make them stronger. All three candidates fulfill this qualification, but Revan has a trump card. Again, not only Darth Bane's, but Darth Vader's actions in this regard are products of Revan's legacy. It was Revan's ideals that shaped Darth Bane's Sith Order, and in turn that Order shaped Darth Vader.

 

3) Perfect being. Revan was in prime mental and physical condition, and was skilled at just about everything. Darth Bane was a pretty tough guy but was not the best persuader. As for Anakin, he was no thinker, lost all of his limbs, etc..

 

I will update my argument in the face of any challenges to them.

 

Here is another point I'd like to make:

 

Anakin is the Chosen One. Not necessarily. If anything, Luke has that role. Why? Because Luke is the catalyst for Anakin to bring down Palpatine...thus making the Light and Dark equally strong. In both cases (Sith'ari and Chosen One), Anakin seems to be the tool for the legacy/actions of others.

[Druganator]

i agree with you on your points and to add to what you have said. Darth bane was also physically limited by the bugs meant to kill him which ended up bonding to him and making the armour he has. (i'm not referring to Darth Krayt read the essential guide to characters) so thats another limitation he had. Revan was also a perfect being because he was incorruptable by the star forge, he could influence entire armies to follow him and he was never defeated in combat. (malak shot his ship and didnt even kill him). however Anakin was the chosen one IMO because he killed palpatine, not Luke. and after darth vader dies luke creates his new order which allows previously "dark side" activities to be allowed such as the use of force lightning and being allowed to marry and have children. if Anakin had not killed Palpatine and died himself then this new order would not have come about. and the light and dark would not have been brought to equilibrium.

[Admiral_Thrawn]

Anakin is the Chosen One. Not necessarily. If anything, Luke has that role. Why? Because Luke is the catalyst for Anakin to bring down Palpatine...thus making the Light and Dark equally strong. In both cases (Sith'ari and Chosen One), Anakin seems to be the tool for the legacy/actions of others.

 

Lucas has already said that Anakin was the Chosen One and although I see your point thats really the end of that.

[Lord of Hunger]

i agree with you on your points and to add to what you have said. Darth bane was also physically limited by the bugs meant to kill him which ended up bonding to him and making the armour he has. (i'm not referring to Darth Krayt read the essential guide to characters) so thats another limitation he had.

Is it limiting? It could result in a dependency, but I'd have to research it.

Revan was also a perfect being because he was incorruptable by the star forge, he could influence entire armies to follow him and he was never defeated in combat. (malak shot his ship and didnt even kill him).

Yep.

however Anakin was the chosen one IMO because he killed palpatine, not Luke. and after darth vader dies luke creates his new order which allows previously "dark side" activities to be allowed such as the use of force lightning and being allowed to marry and have children. if Anakin had not killed Palpatine and died himself then this new order would not have come about. and the light and dark would not have been brought to equilibrium.

But Anakin's actions were always the result of others. He was a tool of destinies greater than his own. Had Luke not been there to inspire feelings of pity and regret in Anakin, Vader would have never turned away from the Sith.

Lucas has already said that Anakin was the Chosen One and although I see your point thats really the end of that.

A very unfortunate statement, considering he is making (in my opinion) a very poorly developed and portrayed character one of the most important beings in his universe.

[Druganator]

i agree that his actions were because of others but he was the one who actually performed those actions without him they would not have happened.

[Kjølen]

Anakin as the Chosen One? Who cares, it really wasn't that important. Both the Jedi and the Sith have had many rises and falls throughout galactic history. The era of the movies was only a small part, and only of minor notable significance in the records.

 

Jolee Bindo says it best: "Look, everybody always figures the time they live in is the most epic, most important age to end all ages. But tyrants and heroes rise and fall, and historians sort out the pieces."

[Druganator]

Anakin as the Chosen One? Who cares, it really wasn't that important. Both the Jedi and the Sith have had many rises and falls throughout galactic history. The era of the movies was only a small part, and only of minor notable significance in the records.

 

Jolee Bindo says it best: "Look, everybody always figures the time they live in is the most epic, most important age to end all ages. But tyrants and heroes rise and fall, and historians sort out the pieces."

 

very well said and thats a good quote. i agree with you on this i just like to argue my point.

[Darth_Yuthura]

I would assume that the Sith'ari, if there really was one, had to be Revan. Kreia said that he was like looking into the heart of the Force... or so she says. That would justify that he came closer to overcoming all restrictions than any other Sith Lord there ever was.

 

He had made the Sith stronger than ever before... until the utterly incompetent Malak screwed everything up. Then he destroyed them either through light or dark side endings. Once the Sith reached the pinnacle of their decadence, they inevitably were destroyed by Revan's actions either as a dark or light side character. Perfect strength, perfect destiny.

 

Anakin by no means could have been the Sith'ari. He may have been the chosen one to the Jedi, but it means the chosen one could not have been the Sith'ari as well. Anakin was simply an arrogant Jedi and a pathetic sith in the end. Revan was a master of both sides of the Force spectrum, which is why I believe him to be the most qualified for the title.

[Astor]

There is no Sith'ari.

[TKA-001]

Let me pull up a profile on each of the individuals who have been proposed to be the one referred to in this "prophecy".

 

Exar Kun: From a certain point of view, could have qualified for the "destroyed the Sith" requirement when he killed Freedon Nadd's ghost. But while many of his accomplishments eclipsed those of Darth Revan (single-handedly enslaved the Massassi race, numerous large-scale uses of Sith magic and alchemy, the ability to directly attack people even as a Force ghost), he never "made the Sith stronger than before", so it can't be him.

 

Darth Revan: Following his redemption, Revan killed the Dark Lord of the Sith and his apprentice, destabilizing the Sith Empire greatly, but while he did lead the Sith in the past, he did not destroy the Sith, nor did he make them "stronger than before".

 

Darth Traya: May qualify for bringing about the destruction of the Sith when she manipulated the Exile into killing Sion and Nihilus, but since she was the leader of the Sith herself, the killing of her two apprentices is invalidated. She also did not make the Sith "stronger than before".

 

Darth Bane: Fits the criteria pretty well. He did kill off the Sith, and his incarnation of the Sith eventually led to the annihilation of the Jedi Order and permanent destruction of the Republic in the form of Darth Sidious.

 

Darth Sidious: There's not much reason to consider him, since he never destroyed the Sith, nor did he improve their chances in the future.

 

Darth Vader: Fits one third of the criteria. Destroyed the Sith with his redemption, but did not make them "stronger", nor did he ever even lead them in the first place.

 

Conclusion: Darth Bane is the only one who might have been the "Sith'ari", but chances are, the prophecy is untrue, since the Jedi Chosen One prophecy was as well (though it wasn't supposed to be so), thanks to the Post-Episode 6 EU.

 

Not only is there is no Sith'ari, but it also doesn't matter if there was.

[Kjølen]

Anakin was simply an arrogant Jedi and a pathetic sith in the end.

 

How dare you! You have it backwards, anyway. He was a pathetic Jedi and an arrogant Sith. And he was freaking David Prowse and James Earl Jones. Those were the days of awesome Vader.

[Darth InSidious]

How dare you! You have it backwards, anyway. He was a pathetic Jedi and an arrogant Sith. And he was freaking David Prowse and James Earl Jones. Those were the days of awesome Vader.

 

This is true. Hayden Christensen and Natalie Portman's scenes together... they were like watching two trees.

[Kjølen]

"YOU ARE SOFTER THAN SAND, MILADY."

"Other hand."

[Darth_Yuthura]

How dare you! You have it backwards.

 

Alright, it works just as well. Darth Vader was by far a miserable excuse for a Sith in the end. By no means could he have become the Sith'ari even if he had been his prime because he did not have the cunning or the intuition to overcome his limitations. He was the Emperor's slave and had not sought to become any more than that.

[TKA-001]

was the Emperor's slave and had not sought to become any more than that.

...which is why he made no less than three attempts to collaborate with a potential apprentice in order to kill Sidious, right?

[Darth_Yuthura]

...which is why he made no less than three attempts to collaborate with a potential apprentice in order to kill Sidious, right?

 

I'm sorry, but could you enlighten me on this? I don't recall anything like that from Vader. He did provide the Emperor with at least two apprentices that were meant to replace him, though.

 

He trained an apprentice for the purpose of rooting out Papatine's enemies. (Starkiller) Maybe he had intended to overthrow the Emperor, but in the end, Vader was just a coward or his mind was maladjusted.

 

He did try to convince his son to ally with him against the Emperor, but when he refused, Vader eventually delivered Luke to his master and said 'he [Palpatine] is your master now.' Surly he knew Luke was meant to take his place.

 

The third... who was the third guy? (I really don't know this)

[TKA-001]

EDIT: On second thought, I don't want to instigate a tangent.

 

[Lord of Hunger]

Let me pull up a profile on each of the individuals who have been proposed to be the one referred to in this "prophecy".

Okay.

Exar Kun: From a certain point of view, could have qualified for the "destroyed the Sith" requirement when he killed Freedon Nadd's ghost.

I believe that destroying the Sith refers to the current Sith organization, not just one Dark Lord.

But while many of his accomplishments eclipsed those of Darth Revan (single-handedly enslaved the Massassi race, numerous large-scale uses of Sith magic and alchemy, the ability to directly attack people even as a Force ghost), he never "made the Sith stronger than before", so it can't be him.

I fail to see how killing off one species and creating a whole lot of monsters eclipses Revan, who used Wounds in the Force to bend entire peoples to his will. As for this ghost thing, not particularly great because he was defeated in the end. No one truly beat Revan.

Darth Revan: Following his redemption, Revan killed the Dark Lord of the Sith and his apprentice, destabilizing the Sith Empire greatly, but while he did lead the Sith in the past, he did not destroy the Sith, nor did he make them "stronger than before".

Leading the Sith does not disqualify one from being stronger. In addition destabilizing the Sith Empire destroyed much of the Sith at the time, but lead to them being quite powerful under the Triumvirate. He teachings also shaped Bane's order.

Darth Traya: May qualify for bringing about the destruction of the Sith when she manipulated the Exile into killing Sion and Nihilus, but since she was the leader of the Sith herself, the killing of her two apprentices is invalidated. She also did not make the Sith "stronger than before".

Again, leading the Sith is not a disqualification.

Darth Bane: Fits the criteria pretty well. He did kill off the Sith, and his incarnation of the Sith eventually led to the annihilation of the Jedi Order and permanent destruction of the Republic in the form of Darth Sidious.

As I said earlier, his actions are the result of Revan's legacy. Thus he is disqualified as he is not free from all restrictions.

Darth Sidious: There's not much reason to consider him, since he never destroyed the Sith, nor did he improve their chances in the future.

True.

Darth Vader: Fits one third of the criteria. Destroyed the Sith with his redemption, but did not make them "stronger", nor did he ever even lead them in the first place.

Actually he did destroy them and make them stronger (One Sith) but he was not free from all restrictions (far from it).

Conclusion: Darth Bane is the only one who might have been the "Sith'ari", but chances are, the prophecy is untrue, since the Jedi Chosen One prophecy was as well (though it wasn't supposed to be so), thanks to the Post-Episode 6 EU.

 

Not only is there is no Sith'ari, but it also doesn't matter if there was.

I beg to differ. The Sith have historically been the result of the failure with the Jedi teachings, but they themselves have never achieved their goal of ultimate freedom. Sith'ari is the achievement of that goal, and anyone who fulfills that prophecy is pretty significant from where I'm standing.

[TKA-001]

I fail to see how killing off one species and creating a whole lot of monsters eclipses Revan, who used Wounds in the Force to bend entire peoples to his will. As for this ghost thing, not particularly great because he was defeated in the end. No one truly beat Revan.

False. Revan was beaten by his apprentice's guile when Malak attacked his flagship, dethroning him and giving him his amnesia. That was most certainly a defeat, to say nothing of how he [Revan] never returned from the Unknown Regions and failed to stop the so-called True Sith.

 

Exar Kun himself has already rather obviously been demonstrated to be far more capable in the Force than Revan ever demonstrated (he's not the only one, either), but here's a two of his accomplishments:

 

1. The aforementioned single-handed enslavement of an entire planet.

2. Used a Sith holocron to corrupt numerous Jedi Knights and apprentices to his side at Ossus (comparable to Revan's use of Malachor V and the Mandalorian Wars in general). Afterward, he dispatched them to assassinate a number of Jedi Masters (an operation which turned out successfully).

 

Leading the Sith does not disqualify one from being stronger. In addition destabilizing the Sith Empire destroyed much of the Sith at the time, but lead to them being quite powerful under the Triumvirate. He teachings also shaped Bane's order.

Revan didn't have anything to do with the formation of the Sith Triumvirate, and whether it was stronger than Revan's Sith Empire is debatable at best.

 

As I said earlier, his actions are the result of Revan's legacy. Thus he is disqualified as he is not free from all restrictions.

So Bane's accomplishments don't count because he wasn't the very first Sith? Where's the logic in that?

 

Either way, Bane's order was not a result of Revan's "legacy". The only effect Revan had in regards to teachings was his statement that a master should only have one apprentice (which seems odd, since KOTOR 1 establishes at the very beginning that he himself had multiple apprentices simultaneously). He neither thought of nor established the Rule of Two, and it could be argued that his Order was just as flawed as Kaan's was.

 

Actually he did destroy them and make them stronger (One Sith) but he was not free from all restrictions (far from it).

Darth Vader didn't have anything to do with Krayt's Sith Order.

[Lord of Hunger]

False. Revan was beaten by his apprentice's guile when Malak attacked his flagship, dethroning him and giving him his amnesia. That was most certainly a defeat, to say nothing of how he [Revan] never returned from the Unknown Regions and failed to stop the so-called True Sith.

What Malak did to Revan is ultimately insignificant. "Oh gee, you gave me amnesia and temporarily dethroned me. Yeah, all you really did was take away a temporary persona I was using and force me to relearn a bunch of stuff, thus making me come back stronger than before and really pissing me off." As for the True Sith, we don't know what happened there. Maybe Revan talked to the True Sith and found out that had a good vision for the Galaxy after all.

Exar Kun himself has already rather obviously been demonstrated to be far more capable in the Force than Revan ever demonstrated (he's not the only one, either), but here's a two of his accomplishments:

 

1. The aforementioned single-handed enslavement of an entire planet.

2. Used a Sith holocron to corrupt numerous Jedi Knights and apprentices to his side at Ossus (comparable to Revan's use of Malachor V and the Mandalorian Wars in general). Afterward, he dispatched them to assassinate a number of Jedi Masters (an operation which turned out successfully).

As I said, Revan's Force Wounds easily outstrip the whole Massassi thing. Besides, a couple of kids were able to free their spirits afterwards. And Revan didn't just corrupt numerous Jedi Knights and apprentices, he corrupted most of them (not to mention the most powerful of them).

Revan didn't have anything to do with the formation of the Sith Triumvirate, and whether it was stronger than Revan's Sith Empire is debatable at best.

The Triumvirate was formed out of the ruins of his Empire. And yes it was stronger, Kreia does tell you that the teachings of the Trayus Academy endanger life itself.

So Bane's accomplishments don't count because he wasn't the very first Sith? Where's the logic in that?

Not the first Sith, but his ideology was the direct result of others. He owes Revan almost everything he learned that was significant. And the Brotherhood of Darkness was lame, any decent Dark Lord could have killed them. (Bane admits such.)

Either way, Bane's order was not a result of Revan's "legacy". The only effect Revan had in regards to teachings was his statement that a master should only have one apprentice (which seems odd, since KOTOR 1 establishes at the very beginning that he himself had multiple apprentices simultaneously). He neither thought of nor established the Rule of Two, and it could be argued that his Order was just as flawed as Kaan's was.

The Rule of Two made the Sith strong enough to destroy both the Sith and the Republic, something that had never happened before.

Darth Vader didn't have anything to do with Krayt's Sith Order.

Krayt became a Sith because Vader killed the Emperor.