Mace MacLeod Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Anytime I've ever had a conversation with a fellow Canadian in a pub about this kind of topic, moderate revulsion is the tamest response I've ever heard. As I said earlier when I mentioned NAFTA, there already is such an economic agreement in place and it's just not used, particularly when the US feels it's not getting the best deal for itself possible. In quite a few US industries, there's a sense that "Of course we're the absolute best at absolutely everything! If Canada or Mexico gets the better of us in any kind of economic competition, they MUST be cheating and screwing us somehow!" Once again I mention the softwood lumber debate. The US lost every single challenge to NAFTA and the WTO, and after every legal defeat, just made up new reasons to keep on adding punitive tarriffs to Canadian lumber and sanctioning its own industry. Among some US politicians (particularly that a$$hole senator from Montana, Lee Bauchus) Canada-bashing and Mexico-bashing is a favourite hobby. Like these guys will ever go for it short of advocating military strikes to eradicate all this un-American behaviour going on in Canada and Mexico. Q: How does an American change a light bulb? A: He just stands there holding it, and as the world revolves around him the light bulb goes in on its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Char Ell Posted July 8, 2006 Author Share Posted July 8, 2006 Well, I did have some witty commentary planned for this, but instead I'll go on the record saying that I am against any attempted global unionization.Duly noted. However the discussion is really about a continental union, not a global one. The world already has the United Nations which is the closest to a global union that I think we'll ever see. So you must not like the UN then, right? @ Mace_MacLeod - Sounds like you're saying you're against a union between Canada and the U.S.A. because you feel the U.S.A. will only support "free trade" if its advantageous to America, based off its existing track record with NAFTA. RE: union between America, India, Japan - While I'm not against the idea per se it's just that the geographical locations of the three countries in relation to each other leaves something to be desired. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderWiggin Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Condescending or no, it is a fact that Mexico is a poorer country and has a higher crime rate than the U.S. or Canada. If all three countries became one, Mexico's problems would be heaped onto the U.S. and Canada. I don't see how that is an 'incredibly halfwit' statement, as it is the truth. From a one-eyed jaded point of view. I agree that it has a higher crime rate in some portions then we do... but look at New York. I mean, come on, if we did join with Mexico, they would be burdened with all of our political bullcrap just as much as we would be burdened from the increased crime rate. I mean, come on! Vicente Fox is doing a lot more good for Mexico then Bush is doing for the US! _EW_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Source Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Oky... I am a U.S. Citizen, so I will start there. First, my country is not into world domination. Eventually, we will be leaving Iraq. Second, if it wasn't for the combined effort of Europe, US, and other great countries (The Allied Forces), we would not have won World War II. My countries recent history is one to be questioned, but don't confuse our leaders with the people. That goes for the U.S. and other countries. The people (Citizens) are more important than the government. My fellow Americans can vote for who we want for President. Needless to say, President Bush's term is up in two years. Now, look around these forums. Take a close look around these forums. What we are doing here is a testiment to humanities potential. Yeah, some of us can be 'Dramatic', but we openly converse on various issues. We express our ideas, dreams, and interests. How about uniting the 'Human Race'. Regardless about our boarders, politics, and arguments, we are all have one thing in common. We are human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace MacLeod Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Oky... I am a U.S. Citizen, so I will start there. First, my country is not into world domination. Sure it is. Ever heard of the US strategic strategy for the new millenium? Read it sometime. [ Eventually, we will be leaving Iraq. That's why the US is currently building five permanent bases in Iraq, right? Second, if it wasn't for the combined effort of Europe, US, and other great countries (The Allied Forces), we would not have won World War II. So? This point should only serve to remind everyone that in WWII, the US and other great countries were responding to an attack, not initiating one. My countries recent history is one to be questioned, but don't confuse our leaders with the people. That goes for the U.S. and other countries. The people (Citizens) are more important than the government. My fellow Americans can vote for who we want for President. Needless to say, President Bush's term is up in two years. So who put this maniac in power then? Who re-elected him? You can't blame all the trouble on Bush & Co. without taking into account how they got their positions. The American people chose this a$$wipe as their leader. They have only themselves to blame if they look like idiots (or worse) for doing so. @ Mace_MacLeod - Sounds like you're saying you're against a union between Canada and the U.S.A. because you feel the U.S.A. will only support "free trade" if its advantageous to America, based off its existing track record with NAFTA. Uh, yes I do happen to believe that looking at what the US has already done gives a good example of what they're likely to do in the future. The US policy makers are now basing just about every single decision on naked self-interest, and based on their treatment of Canada, it now considers "friendly" nations as those who do what the US wants, when the US wants, how the US wants. What those other nations might need or want in return rates concern only as bargaining chips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Char Ell Posted July 8, 2006 Author Share Posted July 8, 2006 ^^^ I think it's safe to say that Mace_MacLeod doesn't like the U.S.A., its leaders, and by extension probably its people too. Just in case anybody wasn't clear on that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace MacLeod Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 It's not Americans in general I don't like, it's the people running the show. Contrary to public opinion, it is possible to criticise the US's pig's breakfast of a foreign policy without actually being against the US in general. "If you're not supporting Bush and our troops, you're supporting the terrorists!" == complete bullsh!t. And I also believe that a true friend is someone who'll tell you when you're making a mess of your life and your surroundings, not just someone who tells you what you want to hear because they're afraid you'll punch them in the face if they don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Char Ell Posted July 8, 2006 Author Share Posted July 8, 2006 I'm glad you clarified your disposition towards the American people because after this comment So who put this maniac in power then? Who re-elected him? You can't blame all the trouble on Bush & Co. without taking into account how they got their positions. The American people chose this a$$wipe as their leader. They have only themselves to blame if they look like idiots (or worse) for doing so. I felt sure you thought Americans were idiotic for electing Bush as our president. And people generally don't like idiots, even if they are idiots themselves. However sometimes the situation is trying to determine which of two bad options is the best. In hindsight I probably shouldn't have bothered voting in the last U.S. presidential election, thereby selecting none of the above. Back on-topic - I don't know if I should spend any more time on pointing out the merits of a North American Union. Only Commander Obi-Wan seemed to have any interest in the idea. I understand the sentiments about how Mexico would be more trouble than it would be worth to include in such a confederation. The level of corruption in the Mexican government is such that it impedes the country's economy, hence the reason why so many Mexicans seek work in the U.S.A., because they don't have much economic opportunity in their own country. Still, if one considers the perspective from a global level with the rise of China, India, and the EU, I think there is a compelling case for dealing with the problems that a confederation between America, Canada, and Mexico would create. IMO the benefits of such a system would outweigh the disadvantages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Det. Bart Lasiter Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 I want my own country so I don't have to deal with this bulls***. I absolutely hate everyone on the U.S. political scene with a shot at the presidency. Republicans haven't come up with any ideas I like, and all Democrats do is parrot what the Republicans say plus something along the lines of "we need to raise taxes and get our troops home, and oh yeah, gay marriage is a-okay." Neither of which will get them elected since Liberals/Democrats (and, no, I'm not a Liberal either) don't like conservative ideas (I just blew your mind, right?). I'm not too sure about Canadian politics, however now they have that neo-conservative douche in power, so I don't think I'll be a huge fan of that either. The Mexican "government" isn't really a government, in that they don't do s***. That being said, all I want from a politician is the freedom to do whatever the hell I want with my internet connection, and whatever gets me closer to this goal is fine with me, NA Union, selling my soul, whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Then I'll just get my last 2 cents in. No way, no how. The US can have Quebec though. And I think Alberta is already in talks to merge with Texas. And one last little tidbit: The Great Canadian Whine: Waaaaaahhhhh!!!! We're a distinct society! Give us stuff or we'll leave and you'll all be sorrrrrryyyyy...!!! Waaaaaaaah!!! It's nice when someone from British Columbia, assuming an anglo-canadian, tries to remotely understand the worries and problems of people living on the other side of the country. We are a distinct society, with different values, different origins and a different language. Last I heard, we don't really whine for stuff. Hell, even if the federal government gave everything to Québec, the separatist movement would still exist. It just happens that we hold the balance of power in Canadian politics and politicians give some stuff to the province in order to get their votes. It just shows how much you actually know about the Québec separatist movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Det. Bart Lasiter Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 ...know about the Québec separatist movement. http://m-w.com/dictionary/treason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samnmax221 Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 From what I remember they don't like coffee very much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace MacLeod Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Hahahaha! Sweeeeet, jmac! Absolutely goddamn right. I was just waiting for someone to notice that little nugget I threw out there. Funny how nothing else in this thread catches your interest but that, luke. And to think the Quebecois have the reputation of being self-centered... And I don't see France sending over boats to pick their beloved up and take them home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Source Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 What is interesting is that: If tomorrow your country was attacked by terrorists, who would you call on for support? U.S. or Sadam U.S. or Osama U.S. or Other Terrorists Back on topic: As you can see, no one can look past their differences. In order for any type of Union between any country, there would have to be some kind of trust. I can honestly see that there isn't any. Someone should lock this thread. No offense to the opener. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace MacLeod Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 ^^^^^The terrorists are coming!!! AIIIEEEEEEEEE!!!! Save us, Bush! SAVE US!!! *edit* Awwwww...don't lock this thread! It's my favourite one on here since I got to find out what particular level of hell I'm going to! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Det. Bart Lasiter Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Hahahaha! Sweeeeet, jmac! Absolutely goddamn right. I was just waiting for someone to notice that little nugget I threw out there. Funny how nothing else in this thread catches your interest but that, luke. And to think the Quebecois have the reputation of being self-centered... Yeah... I didn't read the thread, just the posts after mine... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Source Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Maybe the U.S. should just walk away? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted July 8, 2006 Share Posted July 8, 2006 Hahahaha! Sweeeeet, jmac! Absolutely goddamn right. How can there be treason? I was just waiting for someone to notice that little nugget I threw out there. Funny how nothing else in this thread catches your interest but that, luke. And to think the Quebecois have the reputation of being self-centered... I read the rest, but I didn't bother to post about it. There was nothing I could add that wasn't said already. Funny how you give ammo to the separatist movement thanks to your ignorance. Funny also how you crap on Québec. Wait, where were the biggest anti-war in Iraq gatherings? Montréal, Québec. Chrétien was even accused of only listening to Québec when that issue was brought up. Funny, Toronto's largest anti-war gathering was roughly 34-35000 individuals. Montréal had over 100 000. And let's not talk about Alberta's pro-war gatherings... Must have been fun if we went to war. And I don't see France sending over boats to pick their beloved up and take them home. I don't see anglo-canadians rushing back to their homeland, aka England. Québec is our home. Period. No one wants to go back to France or anything. Obviously, since you didn't even know that, it just shows your ignorance. Perhaps there needs to be some explaning done. The Separatist movement is not about hating anglo-canadians but about loving Québec and its people. It wants the creation of a Canadian Confederation instead of the Federal system in place. In it, you'd have Québec and the rest of Canada. It would function similarly to the EU (another Confederation). Same currency and no need for passport to cross the border. Basically, it's about giving yourself the maximum amount of control over your own destiny. You do what you want to do, with your values and your laws. Sure, there has been some extremism in the past and there still is. The Second Cup thing was done by some jackass. Does anyone here deny the Republic of Ireland's independance from Great Britain? Would anyone say that the Palestinians do not deserve their own country, independant from Israel? By the way, I'm not really a separatist, but many of my friends are and I'll defend my homeland. Yeah, I'm vietnamese by origins, but I was born here and I'm bound to this land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Det. Bart Lasiter Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 How can there be treason?How is claiming a chunk of the country you live in as your own not treason(ous)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 See, that's the thing. For a separatist, Québec is their country. Thus, there would be no treason. Besides, I re-ask my question, why does nobody question the Republic of Ireland's independance from Great Britain? Or why is nobody bashing the Scottish separatist movement? Or even the Palestinian one? There are many pros and cons to secession and those issues are up for a serious and non-childish debate. Unfortunately, when there's hate-mongering around, there never is a serious and non-childish debate. So this is pretty the end of it for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Det. Bart Lasiter Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 See, that's the thing. For a separatist, Québec is their country. Thus, there would be no treason. Besides, I re-ask my question, why does nobody question the Republic of Ireland's independance from Great Britain? Or why is nobody bashing the Scottish separatist movement? Or even the Palestinian one? Ummm, yeah, the Canadian government doesn't see it the same way... As for not questioning the other seperatist movements around the world, no one brought them up since this discussion is already way off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Char Ell Posted July 9, 2006 Author Share Posted July 9, 2006 If this thread is an accurate indication of prevailing attitudes I can see that a North American Union isn't likely to occur in my lifetime. Oh well, it was just an idea I thought I would throw out for discussion. Perhaps the idea is too early for its time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace MacLeod Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!! Wah!! Wah!!! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!! NOW I remember you. You're that pissy habs fan who got her panties in a knot over in the NHL thread, right? You know, when PMS continues all month long, you should really seek medical advice. Hatemongering? You're the one calling me an ignorant jackass, not the other way around. You really think in your wildest dreams we from the rest of the country don't understand? We understand perfectly well. We just don't agree with it. We've been fed to the back teeth about the separatists from Wolfe vs. Montcalm to Traditional Nationalism to the October Crisis. You wanna go? GO! Just STFU and leave already! Can't start missing you until you're gone, sweetcheeks. And we all know how anti-war Quebec is. 1940--Germany invades France. The Quebecois people: "France? What's France? Never heard of it...do-de-do-de-do...we'll be at the cafe, let us know how it turns out..." Incidentally, did you guys know that Lucien Bouchard's leg wasn't actually amputated? It actually seceded on its own because it thought it'd get a better deal by itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderWiggin Posted July 9, 2006 Share Posted July 9, 2006 1940--Germany invades France. The Quebecois people: "France? What's France? Never heard of it...do-de-do-de-do...we'll be at the cafe, let us know how it turns out..." _EW_ No offense to Quebec was intended in my post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mace MacLeod Posted July 10, 2006 Share Posted July 10, 2006 Whoa. You're Vietnamese, luke? Did I see that somewhere on here? And you support the Quebecois separatists?! If so, you're an even bigger fool than I thought. Does the quote "l'argent et le vote ethnique" mean anything to you? You really think that the Stout 'n' Sovereign club doesn't see you as part of the outsiders? You drag Scotland and Ireland into this and it never occurs to you that Vietnam fought off the French the way that Ireland fought off the British? Or that the modern Scottish independance movement is arguing for stuff that Quebec already has (eg: their own Parliament)? Nice little colonial girl you are it seems. And you're the one calling *me* ignorant... This thread as read by a Quebecois Separatist: BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH Blahblahblah? Blahblahblahblah!" BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHQuebecBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHQuebecBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHSTFU and leave alreadyBLAHBLAHBLAH BLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAHBLAH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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