If you want Kotor III, buy NWN 2!!!!

[ztemplarz]

This whole forum is devoted to people who want Kotor III, and is like dozens of others just like it on the internet. LucasArts holds the license and Obsidian the rights (or something like that). If you ever hope to see Kotor III, then buy some games from those developers, because if you don't, then they won't have the capital to make it. Just because there's a lot of demand, does in no way ensure that the demand will be met. These studios must make money so that they can afford to do all the work involved in making a game. That means buy NWN 2 (which has developers from BG, Torment, Fallout, Kotor- ring any bells????) and the other games that they turn out. Keep petitioning for Kotor 3 (or Fallout 3, or Arcanum 2...) and maybe they'll actually make it, since they'll be able to afford to. Or, if you buy those games and INVEST in those companies. Capitalism doesn't produce things by magic, it does it through work financed by capital- no capital, no work. No work, no products. No products means no Kotor III, or Fallout 3, or Vampire 3. That's really all I have to say, and hopefully people actually read this post and take what I've said to heart...

[Mav]

um, I will not be suckered into buying a game that I could care less about because in theory it should allow me to buy a game I may be interested in at a later date... K3 is not an apartment I might want to live in, I'm not paying a deposit.

[RedHawke]

Sorry, but this isn't true ztemplarz. Most of us aren't going to buy a companies games because of the company or to even 'support' the company... we buy games because they intrest us.

 

I will likely be skipping NWN 2 as I thought NWN was a lousy game. I won't be shelling out money for a game I don't really want just to support a game company. Once I see NWN 2 and if I like what I see this might change and I'll buy the game, but 'supporting' a company never even factors in to what games I purchase.

[Emperor Devon]

It'll probably help Obsidian's resume if many people buy NWN 2 and make it a success, but the decision lies with LA. Just because a game sells well doesn't mean it would make a large enough profit. LA could probably make more money selling a bunch of action games with flashy engines and no plots whatsoever, because people love to buy flashy things. And action games require far less effort to make than RPGs do. There's less of a need to pay for voice acting, you don't need to pay the company that makes it as much, since they won't be spending as long on the game... That's capitalism. Produce goods that make the most money at the lowest cost.

 

Lastly, online petitions are completely useless. If they're going to make the game, it's pointless. If they're not, a few hundred or thousand unverified signatures will not convince them otherwise. It would be a poor decision.

[Jediphile]

Besides, there are a few misconceptions here. Obsidian has no claim over the KotOR licence. Lucasarts owns it, period. If they don't want to hire Obsidian to do KotOR3, then there is no way Obsidian will do it. It just isn't their call. Besides, Obsidian has already expressed interest in doing KotOR3.

 

Also, Fallout 3 is already being developed, only by Bethesda instead of Bioware or Obsidian.

 

As for supporting NWN2, why bother? Like RedHawke, I wasn't too impressed with the original game, and there are certainly enough D&D fanboys out there, who will be more than happy to spend their money on it. But I won't because I don't like the new D&D system.

[Totenkopf]

While Ztemplarz has a point, afterall things do cost money, I'd have to say that while I'd probably play a KOTOR 3 to death, I won't live or die based on whether it ever sees the light of day. When you consider that the OOP outlay for these games is close to $50+ a shot, it's asking a bit much to drop it on a piece of crap or something that just isn't interesting.

[Darth Windu]

Like everyone else, I agree that the concept is flawed.

 

Having said that I probably will buy NWN2, but only because I liked the original and the changes for NWN2 such as the improved influence system and whatnot seem very interesting.

[ztemplarz]

Besides, there are a few misconceptions here. Obsidian has no claim over the KotOR licence. Lucasarts owns it, period. If they don't want to hire Obsidian to do KotOR3, then there is no way Obsidian will do it. It just isn't their call. Besides, Obsidian has already expressed interest in doing KotOR3.

 

Also, Fallout 3 is already being developed, only by Bethesda instead of Bioware or Obsidian.

 

As for supporting NWN2, why bother? Like RedHawke, I wasn't too impressed with the original game, and there are certainly enough D&D fanboys out there, who will be more than happy to spend their money on it. But I won't because I don't like the new D&D system.

 

I understand the IP issue, or lack thereof. If Obsidian has expressed interest, wouldn't it make sense that if Obsidian does poorly with Neverwinter Nights 2 that they are in turn less likely be able to do Kotor III? I don't think that that requires a grand leap in reasoning, and that is exactly why I put this thread up. If, however, they were to do well, it would only make it more likely that they would actually be tapped for the project, which means it would actually happen, since they have EXPRESSED INTEREST, and are NO LONGER WORKING ON NWN 2. There are many woulds and ifs in here, but none are unrealistic. Obsidian is one of the few remaining developers that does RPGs and additionally has the desire to do THIS TITLE SPECIFICALLY, which no other company has EXPRESSED interest in.

 

As to the whole Fallout thing, yay, but it's in pre-development, which according to my understanding means next to nothing.

 

In reference to NWN 2, and why you should support it, here's a link you might check out http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/neverwinternights2/news.html?sid=6155712. It is definitely not going to be the same game as NWN. I too played the original and hated it. Yes, I said hated, as in I thought it was a steaming pile of defecation that dishonored all D&D PC games that came before it. I started as a D&D player, and that is where my heart is, so to speak. I grew up reading Forgotten Realms and all the other stories set in the D&D universe. My favorite games are, in order: BG 2, Morrowind, Kotor (both), Fallout (both), and Arcanum. I considered NWN a dungeon crawl with cartoonish graphics and a storyline that a children's book's author could come up with. I still prefer the graphics of BG to it. To paraphrase what that link would tell you, all those people who have worked on all the games that I love are working on NWN 2, and their influences are obvious- NWN 2 has features from Fallout, Kotor, and BG. If NWN 2 does poorly, so will these people, and so will their personal influence and the chances that they'll be making more games in the future. Enough D&D fanboys... That's also part of my point. Those D&D fanboys are also SW fanboys. The two universes are very similar, in many ways. The point is, D&D fans enjoy RPGS. Star Wars fans enjoy RPGs. People don't make RPGs for PCs unless they're bought. That means you have a vested interest as a "SW RPG fan" to buy "d&d RPGs" because the same people develop BOTH. If you only buy "SW RPGs", and they do similarly, that might not be enough, because sorry to tell you, it's a niche interest. We don't hold the purchasing power of those who want trash games with great graphics and lots of exploding noises. I am posting on D&D sites as well. And as to wasting money, I'm not going to completely disagree here, but how bout some food for thought? RPGs usually take at least 2 years of development for release, and in general, there are probably 2-4 true RPGs released every year by major studios. So that means that by investing a paltry $80-$200 (translating into roughly 50 cents a day) a year in games, you might serve to ensure that next year you'll actually have a game that you've been "dying for", that otherwise might never come out (because no one to meet the supply for the demand).

 

And sorry RedHawke, because I've read many of your other posts, and you're not a stupid guy, I agree with you the vast majority of the time. However, right now you're suffering from the same malady as what many others go through their whole lives in: forest for the trees. You only buy what interests you. That's fair, and if there were enough people that actually had good taste, then neither you nor me would have any problem. That's not the case. Most people don't like RPGs because they require that you think. You don't get instant gratification, and sometimes you have to reload a saved game 10 times before you are successful. They are also much more difficult to make, what with requiring an actual story a little thicker than water, having all those cut scenes, scripting, dialog options, alternate endings, etc, etc. The tree you're looking at is called Kotor III. The forest it exists in is called RPGs. Kotor III will never happen if the forest dies. The forest isn't dead yet, but you find far fewer trees there now than you did 5-10 years ago (because the standards are much higher) and far fewer tenders (read, developers). I love the forest, so I'll humor even some of those mishappen, ugly trees, in the hope that I'll walk a little farther along the path and find that great big General Sherman that I'm looking for, that'll keep me entertained for 6 months. This also serves as a great parallel that one can draw between the two Kotors. I loved them both. What I liked about the first one was that there was this huge evil brewing, and nobody believed it, even with the evidence on their doorstep (kinda like the war on terror, or RPG developers shutting down right and left) and your job was to convince them and help fight it (LS)- you confronted it in grand style, and the whole galaxy knew about it, and appreciated your efforts. In Kotor II, nobody knows what's happening to the Jedi, most don't care, some would even applaud it, and your job is to survive, help those ungrateful bastards survive, and confront the evil which is operating out of the shadows but is just as dangerous, maybe even more so, all your fights are unglamorous, personal ones (this bears no relation to the current argument, though this is probably where the war on terror is going to go after Bush leaves office)- in the end, you understand the conflict far more fully, but nobody knows that you just saved the galaxy, maybe even the universe, from complete oblivion, you are completely unlauded and unappreciated.

[RedHawke]

And as to wasting money, I'm not going to completely disagree here, but how bout some food for thought? RPGs usually take at least 2 years of development for release, and in general, there are probably 2-4 true RPGs released every year by major studios. So that means that by investing a paltry $80-$200 (translating into roughly 50 cents a day) a year in games, you might serve to ensure that next year you'll actually have a game that you've been "dying for", that otherwise might never come out (because no one to meet the supply for the demand).

You really need to rethink this line of thinking, consumers are not going to 'invest' any sum of money to purchase something they do not want simply to support a game company just to give them an 'incentive' to make the type of games we want, that's just not how it works either.

 

If you buy the crap games just to support a company then they will make more crap, and not the games you really want... it is completely self-defeating.

 

Also I would rather spend my $80-$200 a year on things I actually want, not everyone is as rich as you and has money to burn.

 

And sorry RedHawke, because I've read many of your other posts, and you're not a stupid guy, I agree with you the vast majority of the time. However, right now you're suffering from the same malady as what many others go through their whole lives in: forest for the trees. You only buy what interests you. That's fair, and if there were enough people that actually had good taste, then neither you nor me would have any problem. That's not the case. Most people don't like RPGs because they require that you think. You don't get instant gratification, and sometimes you have to reload a saved game 10 times before you are successful. They are also much more difficult to make, what with requiring an actual story a little thicker than water, having all those cut scenes, scripting, dialog options, alternate endings, etc, etc. The tree you're looking at is called Kotor III. The forest it exists in is called RPGs. Kotor III will never happen if the forest dies.

Sorry but I disagree, the RPG genre is not dying. I have heard the same things about tabletop PnP RPG games for over a decade, yet PnP RPG's are still going strong, and new ones are being made. The same goes for computer RPG's.

 

Though I do agree the younger 'ADD button-mashing' players have issues with these games, but that is not to say that the RPG genre is dying out because of them. That's a little silly.

 

As a matter of fact, many of the 'button-mashers' have come to understand RPG's even more after playing these games, many such discussions have taken place here on these forums, and they have since become fans of these types of games.

 

The forest isn't dead yet, but you find far fewer trees there now than you did 5-10 years ago (because the standards are much higher) and far fewer tenders (read, developers).

This is not such a bad thing either, the standards we have today are a direct result of consumer choices like I myself make. People didn't buy the crap games, so they stopped making the crap games.

 

I love the forest, so I'll humor even some of those mishappen, ugly trees, in the hope that I'll walk a little farther along the path and find that great big General Sherman that I'm looking for, that'll keep me entertained for 6 months.

You advocate buying games you don't like to 'keep the forest alive' in the hopes that if you do they will make your 'great big General Sherman' game, while it sounds nice in theory, it just doesn't work in practice. Sorry.

 

PS: I see the forest just fine.

 

FYI ztemplarz, it is also a good thing to try and break up your text blocks more in your posts because large blocks of text are hard to read.

[igyman]

If you buy the crap games just to support a company then they will make more crap, and not the games you really want... it is completely self-defeating.

 

Precisely. Why would they go through the trouble of making good games, if they can sell crappy ones? Things need to and will stay the way they are, because most of the consumers aren't that stupid, they won't buy a game just because a certain company made it, they'll get informations about it, read the previews and reviews and if they decide they are interested, they will buy that game.

[Vaelastraz]

NWN 1 didn't impress me.

 

Besides, Lucas Arts DOES have the capital, it is one of the most wealthy companies out there...

[Mav]

The tree you're looking at is called Kotor III. The forest it exists in is called RPGs. Kotor III will never happen if the forest dies. The forest isn't dead yet, but you find far fewer trees there now than you did 5-10 years ago (because the standards are much higher) and far fewer tenders (read, developers). I love the forest, so I'll humor even some of those mishappen, ugly trees, in the hope that I'll walk a little farther along the path and find that great big General Sherman that I'm looking for, that'll keep me entertained for 6 months.

 

First of all: <--- that's me running into your walls of text

 

One flaw in your idealistic metaphor is that KotOR isn't even a budding seedling yet, it's a mere seed(not in production) of KotOR/TSL meandering it's way through the intricate bowels of an albatross(KotOR III being willed into existence by the fanbase), waiting to reach the end of the line and force it's way through the sphincter(LucasArts). That's my metaphor and I'm sticking to it. You fail to see the "forest" for what it really is, a jungle filled with so many friggin' vines, weeds and parasitic species of vegetative crap. That being the massive amounts of crappy RPGs, ideas for RPGs and stupid friggin ideas for RPGs that never go away.

 

I picture myself as Indiana Jones, on a crusade, a crusade to cut through all of that crap and get to my tree, the one filled with honey that Pooh Bear can't reach, so I have to give him a boost... anyway. I grab my machete (empty wallet), slash my way through said crappy vegetation(cruddy RPGs and RPG ideas), with my huge Amazonian warrior woman (RedHawke) at my side and I get to that friggin tree filled with honey that Pooh Bear can't reach and I stick my hand on his soft felt behind and I push him up the tree to his honey.

 

Ok, silly metphors aside, you have to realize that the forest as you see it is dieing, the forest as I see it is being cleared of crap and allowing the beautiful trees to spread their branches and grow. To you it seems like less RPGs are being produced and their market is dieing. In reality crappy RPGs are being produced less and quality RPGs are being produced and shining in their respective areas. Oblivion is a huge success, in the opinion of most people on these forums KotOR was a huge success. I also don't know if your forest is limited to PCs, but elsewhere other RPG's are thriving. Final Fantasy has created it's own friggin forest for crying out loud. Kingdom Hearts is a brilliant franchise, some people dismiss it as a kiddie game because of the Disney involvement, but there's more to it.

 

I'm not going to buy NWN 2 because I feel it will help KotOR III. That's an idiotic asumption, NWN 2 will have no effect on whether or not KotOR III will be made, if I buy NWN 2 it's because I think it's a good game, which so far I don't btw.

[Jediphile]

If you buy the crap games just to support a company then they will make more crap, and not the games you really want... it is completely self-defeating.

 

That sums it up pretty neatly, yes. You vote with your wallet. I like RPGs, so I'll buy those and not many others. If I like Star Wars but not D&D, then I'll support the former and not the latter, and if sales for D&D games go down as a result, the companies will learn to do more RPGs like KotOR and less like NWN. Besides, since KotOR3 is Lucasarts' property, there is connection between how well NWN2 does and whether KotOR3 will be made.

 

The only factor that really means something in equation and that we can influence is how much we buy and how we react to the previous KotOR games. Lucasarts couldn't care less whether NWN2 does well or not. Indeed, since they might release competing RPGs themselves, they might prefer that it didn't do so well, thus making it more like that KotOR3 will be made if NWN2 fails to sell. Now, that's speculation, of course, but I do think it's just as valid a theory as the speculation that KotOR3 will not be made unless the fans buy all the RPGs that are being released out there.

 

Sorry but I disagree, the RPG genre is not dying. I have heard the same things about tabletop PnP RPG games for over a decade, yet PnP RPG's are still going strong, and new ones are being made. The same goes for computer RPG's.

 

A big part of this is the changing market that the industry has to adjust to. Many non-gamers still look on gamers as adolescent boys sitting in the garage of his parents, and that's just not the truth anymore. I heard the other day that the average gamer is now 30 years old, which suggests that the gaming industry has become much more diverse. It's no longer all people playing Defender and Pac-Man or everybody playing Diablo. No, there are groups of people dedicated only to fast FPS like Unreal or Battlefield II, while others will play only MMORPGs like World of Warcraft or Star Wars Galaxies. Another group will play only the deepest and most immersive RPGs, such as KotOR or Oblivion. Though I actually don't find the KotOR games to be particularly deep, they do have good plot IMHO, and I like that, so that's where my gaming money will go.

[ztemplarz]

List of RPG developers no longer around: Troika (Temple, Vampire: Bloodlines, Arcanum, Fallout), Interplay (many SW titles, Fallout, BG, A Bard’s Tale, Wasteland, Planescape: Torment), Black Isle Studio (Icewindales, BG 2, Lionheart, and was DEVELOPING Fallout 3 as well as BG 3). Those still remaining: Bethesda (in pre-development of Fallout 3, not likely to EVER touch anything from SW universe), Obsidian Entertainment (has most of the staff from those now defunct companies, wants to do Kotor III, and is nearly done with NWN 2), Piranha Bytes (makers of Gothic, and only Gothic, also based in Germany, has expressed no interest in doing any other games than their own IP). So once more, if that doesn’t help you see a trend, I don’t know what will- I got this information vie wikipedia, and here‘s the link if you want to examine it for yourself http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_role-playing_game. The producers of the absolutely best RPGs are no longer in business, and of the few developers remaining, only one has the talent and desire to do Kotor III, and doubtlessly many other fine RPGs. So for those of you concerned about supporting potentially imperfect games, which I will accept as speedbumps along the way to a great game, you probably won’t have much longer to worry about that, with so few companies left that actually produce RPGs. I understand very well how capitalism works, and that a company shouldn’t be rewarded for turning out substandard products. That being said, most of those companies that no longer exist DID NOT do that. RPGs take time to develop, and if after two years they produce one Kotor II or Temple that only sells okay, or poorly, that often makes the difference between whether they will in turn be able to make another Fallout, or BG, or some other game which might be entirely new. I don’t suggest that you should buy NWN 2 if it sucks, and another sucky game after that, because then it is obvious that whatever ability Obsidian has available is being squandered, either through laziness, incompetence, or unrealistic expectations by corporate (meaning developing time, or putting them on projects that they don’t want to do). What I do say is buy NWN 2, REGARDLESS of whether or not it’s a 98% game, because they are very much capable of making +90% games, and if it isn’t, it’s probably going to be the exception to the rule. I hope very much that NWN 2 turns out to be an awesome game, and that you all in turn say, wow, that sounds interesting, I had better buy it (and if you have gone to that link that I provided, I really don’t know how you can’t at least be interested, since it has features from the best RPGs of all time).

 

As to the vast number of RPGs that are being turned out, I’m going to have to disagree with that. Look at 1997-2000, that is when the vast majority of LEGENDARY, good-to-this day RPGs were turned out (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_computer_role-playing_games). After that, you have what? Gothic II, Kotors, Oblivion (not as good as Morrowind), Dungeon Siege (dungeon crawl, not true RPG), Fable (more cartoonish graphics, with a cute and cheeky storyline designed for 17-year olds), and a bunch of MMORPGs (which are only classified as RPGs because of the whole “character development” aspect). Numerically, according to a loose definition of RPGs, yes, the numbers are about the same. Quality wise, in terms of games with solid gameplay, storyline, and all the other essential characteristics of a true RPG, no, it doesn’t persist. Oblivion is the nearest thing recently, and it succumbed to the general appeal for an action RPG to a fairly large extent (meaning, very few times did you have any alternative course of action to “kill enemies”- there weren’t puzzles, there weren’t dialog options where you could say the wrong thing and maybe never complete a quest). It had a semi-compelling story, but there weren’t any real options to come to alternate endings (meaning no going DS versus LS, with separate results)- no matter what, you had to save the continent [world].

[Negative Sun]

I was gonna get NWN 2 anyways, loved NWN and the second one looks kickass!

[ztemplarz]

"That sums it up pretty neatly, yes. You vote with your wallet. I like RPGs, so I'll buy those and not many others. If I like Star Wars but not D&D, then I'll support the former and not the latter, and if sales for D&D games go down as a result, the companies will learn to do more RPGs like KotOR and less like NWN. Besides, since KotOR3 is Lucasarts' property, there is connection between how well NWN2 does and whether KotOR3 will be made.

 

The only factor that really means something in equation and that we can influence is how much we buy and how we react to the previous KotOR games. Lucasarts couldn't care less whether NWN2 does well or not. Indeed, since they might release competing RPGs themselves, they might prefer that it didn't do so well, thus making it more like that KotOR3 will be made if NWN2 fails to sell. Now, that's speculation, of course, but I do think it's just as valid a theory as the speculation that KotOR3 will not be made unless the fans buy all the RPGs that are being released out there."-Jediphile

 

For your information, I ONLY buy RPGs. No exception, period. As to people "learning to make SW RPGs", that's not how it works. As you can see from my previous post, the same people who make those D&D rpgs also make SW rpgs- which means, if they go out of business, with them goes any chance that you'll see a SW rpg. And again, if you had actually looked at the link that I provided, many Kotor features are going to be included in NWN 2, which means that essentially you are going to have very much the same game, just in a different universe, setting. And Kotors are built on the D&D system, so a company that specializes in making D&D games is far more likely to be passed the baton than say, Bethesda, or Piranha Bytes. And a developing company that actually has people who WORKED on Kotors, is much more likely to be given the project than one that HASN'T and is much more likely to DO IT RIGHT than one that hasn't. Market speculation is great, I really didn't factor that into my argument, kudos to you.

 

"One flaw in your idealistic metaphor is that KotOR isn't even a budding seedling yet, it's a mere seed(not in production) of KotOR/TSL meandering it's way through the intricate bowels of an albatross(KotOR III being willed into existence by the fanbase), waiting to reach the end of the line and force it's way through the sphincter(LucasArts). That's my metaphor and I'm sticking to it. You fail to see the "forest" for what it really is, a jungle filled with so many friggin' vines, weeds and parasitic species of vegetative crap. That being the massive amounts of crappy RPGs, ideas for RPGs and stupid friggin ideas for RPGs that never go away.

 

Ok, silly metphors aside, you have to realize that the forest as you see it is dieing, the forest as I see it is being cleared of crap and allowing the beautiful trees to spread their branches and grow. To you it seems like less RPGs are being produced and their market is dieing. In reality crappy RPGs are being produced less and quality RPGs are being produced and shining in their respective areas. Oblivion is a huge success, in the opinion of most people on these forums KotOR was a huge success. I also don't know if your forest is limited to PCs, but elsewhere other RPG's are thriving. Final Fantasy has created it's own friggin forest for crying out loud. Kingdom Hearts is a brilliant franchise, some people dismiss it as a kiddie game because of the Disney involvement, but there's more to it.

 

I'm not going to buy NWN 2 because I feel it will help KotOR III. That's an idiotic asumption, NWN 2 will have no effect on whether or not KotOR III will be made, if I buy NWN 2 it's because I think it's a good game, which so far I don't btw."-Maverick187

 

In reply to this, see above, and my other post. Expressed interest, capability, experience, and open plate would be a summarization of why Obsidian is likely to actually get right to make Kotor III (assuming that all the conspiracy theories I hear floating around about Lucas Arts are untrue, and it's not "already in production", or "finished, and they're waiting for the most opportune time to release it").

 

"NWN 1 didn't impress me.

 

Besides, Lucas Arts DOES have the capital, it is one of the most wealthy companies out there..."-Vaelastraz

 

Again, actually go to the link that I provided, and maybe you will see that NWN 2 is not going to be anything like NWN, which I also abhorred. And Lucas Arts might have the capital, but they sure haven't expressed ANY desire, and have about 5 billion other projects on their hands, or planned right now, which means it's extremely unlikely that they will actually be the ones to make Kotor III.

 

Well, I'm pretty fond of large text blocks, since they represent single ideas, and if I arbitrarily break them up out of concern for ergonomics of reading, then I am actually breaking up those ideas, which means it will probably make it more difficult to understand, which would in turn defeat the purpose of writing them in the first place. I apologize for sounding like a broken record here, but I see a lot of "yes, uh-huhs", so don't know if there is any way to avoid it.

[Emperor Devon]

It doesn't work that way, ztemplarz. If lots of people buy bad games (I am by no means saying NWN was one), then the company will realize that it's profitable way of business, and continue making bad games. They'd like that, because not only is it profitable, but bad games are cheaper to make than good ones.

 

Buying NWN 2 isn't going to get KotOR III made. In fact, it might do the opposite. If NWN 2 sells better than KotOR II, Obsidian might be interested in making a NWN 3, pushing the date for KotOR III back even further...

[ztemplarz]

It doesn't work that way, ztemplarz. If lots of people buy bad games (I am by no means saying NWN was one), then the company will realize that it's profitable way of business, and continue making bad games. They'd like that, because not only is it profitable, but bad games are cheaper to make than good ones.

 

Buying NWN 2 isn't going to get KotOR III made. In fact, it might do the opposite. If NWN 2 sells better than KotOR II, Obsidian might be interested in making a NWN 3, pushing the date for KotOR III back even further...

 

 

Okay, this was just too easy to let it get away. Once more, the people that work at Obsidian don't make bad games. Every game they have made might not be perfect, but very few are bad, and they have made some extremely GOOD games. As to them making bad games intentionally, because it's profitable, no. Absolutely not. Leave that to Diablo or Dungeon Siege, not makers of perenial classics that have stood the test of time, and will still be great 50 years from now. Nearly every example of a follow-up they have done has been an IMPROVEMENT, if anything. These people don't turn out Madden 07.

 

Buying it won't get it made? Very much contest that line of reasoning. Here's why. Kotor II was released in 2004. NWN 2 is coming out in a couple of months. NWN was released in 2002. Obsidian won't want to come out with another NWN (if they ever do) within a couple of years of their last (for many reasons, including the whole, I just worked on NWN 2 for the past several years, and here we go again..). If you'd note, it's been 4 years between the NWN titles. Guess what? IF Obsidian were to start working on Kotor III right now, then AT SOONEST, it would probably be ABOUT 4 years between Kotor II and III, maybe even a bit more, which means the market would be ripe for Kotor when it came out, and then there would be demand for NWN 3 if they do this one well. And they are separate universes. People here who for some obscure reason seem to hate D&D have already said that they aren't going to buy NWN 2, which means that it won't even have to compete for a fan base over the next several years... which just makes it more likely that they'll actually do it, so they can tap into another market.

[Jediphile]

List of RPG developers no longer around: Troika (Temple, Vampire: Bloodlines, Arcanum, Fallout), Interplay (many SW titles, Fallout, BG, A Bard’s Tale, Wasteland, Planescape: Torment), Black Isle Studio (Icewindales, BG 2, Lionheart, and was DEVELOPING Fallout 3 as well as BG 3). Those still remaining: Bethesda (in pre-development of Fallout 3, not likely to EVER touch anything from SW universe), Obsidian Entertainment (has most of the staff from those now defunct companies, wants to do Kotor III, and is nearly done with NWN 2), Piranha Bytes (makers of Gothic, and only Gothic, also based in Germany, has expressed no interest in doing any other games than their own IP). So once more, if that doesn’t help you see a trend, I don’t know what will- I got this information vie wikipedia, and here‘s the link if you want to examine it for yourself http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_role-playing_game.

 

Companies come and go, and there are any number of reasons why they fail. Some don't even fail, but just break up because of creative differences or because the people involved have grown apart. You can't take a list like that and then reach the conclusion you assume here. Westwood Studios is also gone, and they were the developers of the original real-time strategy games (Dune II and Command & Conquer). Does that mean RTS games are in danger of not being written anymore? Or going back even further, Epyx once did dungeon-crawling strategy games like "Temple of Apshai" (which was considered an RPG in its day...) and sports games like "Summer Games" and "World Games". Does that mean those genres are now in danger of being extinct?

 

Or are you suggesting that the reason the Ultima series is no continued and Origin Systems is gone is because not enough people were interested in RPGs? If so, then that's not a very compelling point to me. The short version that the latter games (Ultima VIII and IX) were just disappointing, and so nobody (or not enough people) bought them. But RPGs are still alive and kicking even so. Bad games kill companies that make them. They do not kill the genre the game belonged to. That's because usually a bad game is bad and fails to sell because somebody else just wrote something in the same genre that was much better. That's why people played KotOR1, while forgetting all about Summoner II. It happens all the time. Good games sell and crap games are forgotten, even among RPGs.

 

The producers of the absolutely best RPGs are no longer in business, and of the few developers remaining, only one has the talent and desire to do Kotor III, and doubtlessly many other fine RPGs. So for those of you concerned about supporting potentially imperfect games, which I will accept as speedbumps along the way to a great game, you probably won’t have much longer to worry about that, with so few companies left that actually produce RPGs. I understand very well how capitalism works, and that a company shouldn’t be rewarded for turning out substandard products. That being said, most of those companies that no longer exist DID NOT do that. RPGs take time to develop, and if after two years they produce one Kotor II or Temple that only sells okay, or poorly, that often makes the difference between whether they will in turn be able to make another Fallout, or BG, or some other game which might be entirely new.

 

1. Whoever you refer to (Obsidian, Bioware, or whomever), there is more than just one developer with the talent required to do KotOR3.

 

2. I think you're overlooking the changes in the gaming industry in recent years when you point to how many companies have closed shop in the RPG business, and that's setting aside that this is not exclusive to this genre - it has happened for all the other game genres as well. It's not simply that we have failed to support RPGs - or indeed other games - in general. No, it's that gaming has changed into an actual industry, and the competition is fierce like never before. Gone are the times when you have three or four people working for six months to make a game. No, today we're talking about 30+ people working full time for over a year to make a game - in any genre. That means the games have become much, much larger, have far better graphics and sound, and much deeper plots. Sure Fallout 2 was a great game (and still is - I still play it on occasion), but the graphics and sound would not measure up today. And there is no speech in it beyond the rare "talking heads". Now all dialogue must be spoken (expenses for voice actors entering the industry or at least rising dramatically), the graphics must be 3d and still be both recognizable and good-looking (costs for programmers rise), etc. The long development of games and the generally rising costs have limited the players (i.e., delevelopers) involved. No longer can developers be idealistic youngsters working from their basements. Producing a game just costs too much today. You really need to take all that into consideration. It's actually important in the sense of having a balanced view of the status in the industry.

 

As to the vast number of RPGs that are being turned out, I’m going to have to disagree with that. Look at 1997-2000, that is when the vast majority of LEGENDARY, good-to-this day RPGs were turned out (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_computer_role-playing_games). After that, you have what? Gothic II, Kotors, Oblivion (not as good as Morrowind), Dungeon Siege (dungeon crawl, not true RPG), Fable (more cartoonish graphics, with a cute and cheeky storyline designed for 17-year olds), and a bunch of MMORPGs (which are only classified as RPGs because of the whole “character development” aspect). Numerically, according to a loose definition of RPGs, yes, the numbers are about the same. Quality wise, in terms of games with solid gameplay, storyline, and all the other essential characteristics of a true RPG, no, it doesn’t persist. Oblivion is the nearest thing recently, and it succumbed to the general appeal for an action RPG to a fairly large extent (meaning, very few times did you have any alternative course of action to “kill enemies”- there weren’t puzzles, there weren’t dialog options where you could say the wrong thing and maybe never complete a quest). It had a semi-compelling story, but there weren’t any real options to come to alternate endings (meaning no going DS versus LS, with separate results)- no matter what, you had to save the continent [world].

 

To me this sounds a lot like the "good old days, when things were better"-analogy that we sometimes hear from people who have a romanticized percerption of those days. Now don't get me wrong - I'm right there with you myself. I too remember the good days, when "Temple of Apshai" was all the rage and sparked my imagination like crazy. I, too, remember being high on Fallout's greatness. But the difference is that I know those days were good because of how impressionable I was in those games when it came to games, whereas I'm far more critical, skeptical and demanding of quality today. Seeing a cool lightsaber in KotOR is not going to get me all excited, because I expect that as a matter of course in a Star Wars games. But I bet there are those KotOR fans who are all up in arms about it and think that force jumps are oh-so cool. I'd like to feel that way too, but I've moved beyond the "good old days". Unfortunately.

 

As for fixed plots, I don't see how you can bring that into the discussion as something that has deteriorated in RPGs. I love Fallout 2, but plotwise it's still quite fixed - you have no choice but to fight the Enclave and destroy their rig to revenge your village and save your villagers. That KotOR1 had very distinct alternate endings was a feature of that game. I certainly was not a long-standing trend in CRPGs. Now if you're saying that we need more like that, then I'll agree completely. But it's only something that we can hope for, not expect. At least not yet. Heck, I'd love CRPGs, where you have far more than just good or evil endings. I'd like six or more different endings to every single CRPG I play. But it's not going to happen in the next year, so I have to content myself with that. Right now I'm just happy that the immersive single-player CRPG hasn't been completely replaced by the menace of MMORGPs, which seemed to be all the rage in recent times.

[The Source]

I am with everyone else on this issue. People buy games because they like them, and not because they want to support anyone. NWN2 looks like a nice game, but it is not something that I want to personally buy. It is not something of my own taste; therefore, I will not be spending cash on this product.

 

People will judge what they want to buy on a few criteria:

1. Do I like the game?

2. Could my hardware handle the game?

3. Is the game too expensive at the moment?

4. Do I have the cash to spend?

 

If it takes about 14yrs for a KotOR III to hit the shelves (and there are no other games that interest me in the next 14yrs), I will wait to see if I am going to buy it. I will not throw money into something to show my support. If they don't want to make KotOR III, then they will not get my hard working money. You never know, they could design KotOR III in a way that I don't agree with. What then? Should I buy it? No way man!

 

If you want to support some cause, I heard politicians would like a few donations.

 

You are also making an assumption that Obsidian will end up getting the contract for a KotOR III. I call that short sightedness. If you have been paying attention, you would have noticed that Lucas Arts has been busy making new deals.

 

***Sarcastic***

I guess you will have to buy products from all of Lucas Art's affiliates in hopes that one of them will create a KotOR III. You would also have to give up on your ability to think for yourself, and rely on what Lucas Arts believes what you should buy. Hmmm... I heard there is a great ET game in the near future. You never know. If you don't support Lucas Arts, KotOR III will never be made. I guess you will have to buy ET.

***Sarcastic***

 

-----------------------------------------

 

Your Obsidian Comment - "Obsidian doesn't make bad games..."

We don't know that for 100% fact. KotOR II was the only game they have released, and it is filled with errors and bad editing. At the moment, there is no proof that they can make a GREAT game. Remember, not all of us agree on the overall value of Obsidian. They do make some interesting enhancements, but this doesn't mean they can make a 'GREAT' game.

[Vaelastraz]

Okay, this was just too easy to let it get away. Once more, the people that work at Obsidian don't make bad games. Every game they have made might not be perfect, but very few are bad, and they have made some extremely GOOD games. As to them making bad games intentionally, because it's profitable, no. Absolutely not. Leave that to Diablo or Dungeon Siege, not makers of perenial classics that have stood the test of time, and will still be great 50 years from now. Nearly every example of a follow-up they have done has been an IMPROVEMENT, if anything. These people don't turn out Madden 07.

 

Buying it won't get it made? Very much contest that line of reasoning. Here's why. Kotor II was released in 2004. NWN 2 is coming out in a couple of months. NWN was released in 2002. Obsidian won't want to come out with another NWN (if they ever do) within a couple of years of their last (for many reasons, including the whole, I just worked on NWN 2 for the past several years, and here we go again..). If you'd note, it's been 4 years between the NWN titles. Guess what? IF Obsidian were to start working on Kotor III right now, then AT SOONEST, it would probably be ABOUT 4 years between Kotor II and III, maybe even a bit more, which means the market would be ripe for Kotor when it came out, and then there would be demand for NWN 3 if they do this one well. And they are separate universes. People here who for some obscure reason seem to hate D&D have already said that they aren't going to buy NWN 2, which means that it won't even have to compete for a fan base over the next several years... which just makes it more likely that they'll actually do it, so they can tap into another market.

 

 

But it does look that Obsidian entertainment can't just decide to do Kotor III.

Because then they would do it. I remember some quotes at their forums, that say, they would be more than willing to do Kotor III.

 

It's about Lucas Arts I think.

[ztemplarz]

Westwood Studios is also gone, and they were the developers of the original real-time strategy games (Dune II and Command & Conquer). Does that mean RTS games are in danger of not being written anymore?

 

1. Whoever you refer to (Obsidian, Bioware, or whomever), there is more than just one developer with the talent required to do KotOR3.

 

2. I think you're overlooking the changes in the gaming industry in recent years when you point to how many companies have closed shop in the RPG business, and that's setting aside that this is not exclusive to this genre - it has happened for all the other game genres as well. It's not simply that we have failed to support RPGs - or indeed other games - in general. No, it's that gaming has changed into an actual industry, and the competition is fierce like never before. Gone are the times when you have three or four people working for six months to make a game. No, today we're talking about 30+ people working full time for over a year to make a game - in any genre. That means the games have become much, much larger, have far better graphics and sound, and much deeper plots. Sure Fallout 2 was a great game (and still is - I still play it on occasion), but the graphics and sound would not measure up today. And there is no speech in it beyond the rare "talking heads". Now all dialogue must be spoken (expenses for voice actors entering the industry or at least rising dramatically), the graphics must be 3d and still be both recognizable and good-looking (costs for programmers rise), etc. The long development of games and the generally rising costs have limited the players (i.e., delevelopers) involved. No longer can developers be idealistic youngsters working from their basements. Producing a game just costs too much today. You really need to take all that into consideration. It's actually important in the sense of having a balanced view of the status in the industry.

 

To me this sounds a lot like the "good old days, when things were better"-analogy that we sometimes hear from people who have a romanticized percerption of those days. Now don't get me wrong - I'm right there with you myself. I too remember the good days, when "Temple of Apshai" was all the rage and sparked my imagination like crazy. I, too, remember being high on Fallout's greatness. But the difference is that I know those days were good because of how impressionable I was in those games when it came to games, whereas I'm far more critical, skeptical and demanding of quality today. Seeing a cool lightsaber in KotOR is not going to get me all excited, because I expect that as a matter of course in a Star Wars games. But I bet there are those KotOR fans who are all up in arms about it and think that force jumps are oh-so cool. I'd like to feel that way too, but I've moved beyond the "good old days". Unfortunately.

 

Westwood is one developer of many. Your list didn't go, Blizzard, Westwood, and some other companies that I'm sure have also made great RTS games. And while there may very well be other developers "capable" of doing Kotor III, or an RPG in general, they haven't, nor have they expressed any interest. But on that note, I'd love to hear who else you have in mind, since the list of RPG developers is rather short....

 

As to all higher expectations and standards, I understand that very well. People want to see pimples on the face of the protaganist they created that looks exactly like them. They want to kick a puppie NPC into the street and watch it get run over. Great. That is EXACTLY why sometimes mediocre games from companies with illustrious records must be bought, because it's MUCH more difficult to MAKE a similarly great RPG in our time, and sales is what makes or breaks those companies that can do it. If it takes those 30+ people over a year, and they needed two, but ran out of money, or their deadline was up, and you don't buy the game, chances are, they're NOT going to be making another. MAYBE the market will then figure out that in order to make money selling RPGs, it must give the developers more time and money, but more likely it will simply decide to abandon RPGs and take the path of least resistance by turning out really impressive looking games with little substance that don't quite sell as well, but are cheaper and easier. Capitalist markets don't preclude quality products (look at the entertainment industry, for example....). That is why I'll buy NWN 2, is because I KNOW it's MUCH HARDER to make GOOD RPG now, much less a GREAT one. I'm HOPING that it will be great, and won't be like another recent disappointment- and so far, it looks like it will (if not be great, at least be good).

 

As for the good old days, I will remain nostalgic for them. I would STILL rather play a game with BG graphics, or Kotor graphics, that features a possibility of 120+ hours of solid gameplay and the chance to explore an entire fantasy universe. A game where you had to have your strategy down pat, and fully understand the mechanics of the game that you were playing, because if you didn't, you would be stuck for 4 hours trying to beat a certain boss, or solve a particular riddle. In Kotor 2, the only time anything approaching that happened was when I had to gain access to that last room in the sith academy. In neither Kotor did I ever have any trouble beating ANY boss, or completing ANY quest (the same also goes for Oblivion). Maybe it's because I'm a genius, or maybe it's because they're simply not as difficult as past RPGs. It's funny that I'm the one in this thread being attacked for lowering my standards, when in reality, I probably have the most stringent standards for what I expect out of my RPG than anyone here. The REASON *spoilers!!!* that I enjoyed both Kotors so much was THE STORY. I said this before, and I'll say it again, before playing the Kotors, I always thought that the SW galaxy was just gay, and that Jedi were just a bunch of powerful wimps. After playing the Kotors, I grew to have a much greater appreciation for the philosophical background of the Star Wars universe, and am a recent convert. And unlike most people, I believe that Kotor II did a MUCH better job of bringing the nuances of both philosophies (Jedi and Sith), fully to light. There were far fewer areas, NPCs, sidequests, background info (meaning books, or datapads) than in most good RPGs- everything was almost exclusively plot driven (and again, fortunately, it was a very good plot). I don't think the gameplay is that great, it's definitely good, but FPs are just too easy to get and use. The combat balance is ridiculous in nearly every instance. My three characters can lay waste to an entire army, often without breaking a sweat- and I never use cheats or mods. In BG, or Icewindale, my party of 6 was usually on the verge of death before I was able to win a major battle, and often times, some of the party members were dead. In Fallout, it was very easy to screw up and watch that irritating cut scene telling you that you had failed miserably and were dead. They also had great stories, and not nearly as many cutscenes. That is what an RPG is about, a sense of accomplishment, not a blip on your radar- "Did I just defeat Sion?" In any event, I have to get ready for work and the real world right now, so this is going to have to conclude my reply.

[Emperor Devon]

Okay, this was just too easy to let it get away. Once more, the people that work at Obsidian don't make bad games.

 

I am not of that opinion. I think Obsidian is just as good a company as Bioware. I was simply using the previously stated example. However, I definitely agree with you on KotOR II's story.

[generalvaklu321]

LucasArts holds the license and Obsidian the rights (or something like that). If you ever hope to see Kotor III, then buy some games from those developers, because if you don't, then they won't have the capital to make it...

 

hopefully people actually read this post and take what I've said to heart

 

I'm not sure if it's true, but does your paycheck come from one of those developers. I get the vibe that you might be a plant. If not, it's mentality like that that makes the developers slack off a bit. Obsidian should make better games (I like Obsidians games though) to get people to buy them. There is always more developer's have to prove. If we just buy it just because it's them, they wont be pressured to make better games. Let's take the food industry, your local restaurant makes much better food than McDonalds, and It's always looking to improve it's meals to get more people to come. But McDonalds takes zoo-grade meat and fry's it , and people just get what they have, because it's McDonalds (or whatever, BK, Wendy's, etc).

 

Sorry about my rant...

[ztemplarz]

 

***Sarcastic***

I guess you will have to buy products from all of Lucas Art's affiliates in hopes that one of them will create a KotOR III. You would also have to give up on your ability to think for yourself, and rely on what Lucas Arts believes what you should buy. Hmmm... I heard there is a great ET game in the near future. You never know. If you don't support Lucas Arts, KotOR III will never be made. I guess you will have to buy ET.

***Sarcastic***

 

Your Obsidian Comment - "Obsidian doesn't make bad games..."

We don't know that for 100% fact. KotOR II was the only game they have released, and it is filled with errors and bad editing. At the moment, there is no proof that they can make a GREAT game. Remember, not all of us agree on the overall value of Obsidian. They do make some interesting enhancements, but this doesn't mean they can make a 'GREAT' game.

 

Well, perhaps I would buy from Lucas Arts affiliates, if any of them were actually EXPRESSING interest in making Kotor III, or if any of them made anything besides cheesy tie-fighter games, or RTS, or MMORPGs, or action RPGs- but that's right they haven't, and they don't, so no, I won't be. I only play RPGs. If any of them actually made decent RPGs, I would buy them, or if they had a track record of turning out quality RPGs= since they don't, I won't. Your sarcasm is amusing, when a reputable developer is nearly ready to take on a new title and has previously stated that they would like to do Kotor III specifically. I'm not pulling conspiracy theories out of my rear end like many of the posts regarding "potential developers" and "inside scoops"- I'm stating facts, and combining that with some logical reasoning.

 

Everyone already knows that Kotor II was released prematurely, and they didn't get a chance to complete it like they had desired to, so that's not really a good point. In any event, Kotor II wasn't a cruddy game, and did a very good job tying in with it's prequel and providing a different type of atmosphere and plot- I would consider it a success especially considering the fact that it was rushed. When I speak glowingly of Obsidian's "track record", I'm speaking in terms of the lead developers that it has on it's team and what they have produced or worked on in their careers. Here's a couple of links: http://pc.ign.com/articles/684/684902p1.html, http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/neverwinternights2/news.html?sid=6104565, http://www.gamebanshee.com/interviews/neverwinternights2-1.php, http://pc.gamedaily.com/game/news/?gameid=3511&id=7323. Obsidian isn't a "new" company- it's the remnants of all the greatest RPG developers of all time. The deciding factor will be NWN 2, since they have themselves said that it will the litmus test that will either cement their standing and future, or throw it into jeopardy. I personally am hoping that it will be a great game, because I am confident that they want to do Kotor III, and would also do an extremely good job of it- oh yeah, and I love the D&D universe, and it's been awhile since there's been a good PC game set in it. Priest of Telos here I come!

 

I'm not sure if it's true, but does your paycheck come from one of those developers. I get the vibe that you might be a plant.

Like I didn't see that one coming. I'm not a "plant", definitely belong to the Animalia kingdom. But seriously, I don't know anyone that works for Obsidian, though I wish that I did... Maybe if I keep it up, I might be able to convince them to provide me with some sort of compensation...