Kreia handmaiden's mother?

[The Sith'ari]

Although, Master Kavar doesn't say "I thought you had died during the Mandalorian Wars" he says "I thought had you died in the Mandalorian Wars." That to me suggests that Kreia did fight in the Mandalorian Wars.

 

Now, why would the Jedi Order assume that Kreia died in the Mandalorian Wars? (Apart from the possibility that she did fight in the wars, but wasn't seen in the Jedi Civil War by anyone from the Jedi Order).

 

Nevertheless, the Jedi Order exiled Kae and in any event, they wouldn't expect to see her again, but that does not mean she died (just because they haven't seen her since her exile). Anyway it doesn't matter, since it neither proves nor disproves that Kreia is Arren Kae.

 

I agree that Kavar's statement suggests that the Kreia that he recognizes fought in the Mandalorian Wars. Or else it would have been "During" the Mandalorian Wars. To me it's just wishful twisting of the meaning of words.

 

But I venture to suggest that the fact that Kavar thinks that the woman standing before him died in the Wars hints that she is Arren Kae. Well, it is known that Kae joined Revan and fought in the Wars. It's a fact recognized by the disciple and Kreia there exist no contradictions. Recognizing Kae, it's logical that Kavar said what he said. However, if that is Kreia standing before Kavar but not Kae, while Kreia is exiled because of her teachings and nothing whatsoever was known about her whereabouts, Kavar wouldn't have thought that she died in the Mandalorian Wars.

[tbl]

It is clearly stated that Kae, was a Jedi KNIGHT. Kreia would have been a Jedi Master during the times of the mandalorian wars. If that is not conclusive, what is.

 

btw: why in Jediphile's post aren't the three masters wearing masters robes?

 

Likely a mod... very likely. -RH

[Jediphile]

It is clearly stated that Kae, was a Jedi KNIGHT. Kreia would have been a Jedi Master during the times of the mandalorian wars. If that is not conclusive, what is.

 

It's not conclusive since knight is the one term within the order which is ambigious - any member of the jedi order above (but excluding) the rank of padawan may be called a knight. Obi-Wan even says, "I was once a jedi knight the same as your father" to Luke, though Obi-Wan was clearly a master. Anakin could even have been considered one as well, given that he was on the jedi council.

 

And in any event:

 

Disciple: "Many of the Jedi Council trained Exar Kun, Ulic... Revan and Malak. How could they not see the danger they posed? And if they could not......perhaps there was some essential part of their teachings that was flawed. Something beyond the Jedi Code that they were missing. Revan had many Masters. Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before Kae left for the Wars. Towards the end of his training, he sought out many to learn techniques.It is said that he returned to his first master at the end of his training, in order to learn how he might best leave the order."

 

Kae trained Revan long before the Mandalorian Wars, so clearly she was already a master. Disciple says so, and the plot demands that she was too. I find it interesting that he titles her as "Master Kae", while the other masters are just Zhar and Dorak without titles. It somehow suggests to me that Kae was more of a master than they were.

 

btw: why in Jediphile's post aren't the three masters wearing masters robes?

 

Likely a mod... very likely. -RH

 

Yes, probably a mod. You'll have to ask Shem, since he posted those images, not me. I merely replied to the post where he had put them, and so they appear in my reply.

[SilentScope001]

Would it be better to say that it would be revealed that Kreia is Kae...but it was cut because the developers thought it was too cliche?

 

It would sastiy both parties, the people who know Kreia really was meant to be Kae, and the people who know that Kreia is not really Kae because it is non-canon, due to it being cut content.

[Jediphile]

Would it be better to say that it would be revealed that Kreia is Kae...but it was cut because the developers thought it was too cliche?

 

It would sastiy both parties, the people who know Kreia really was meant to be Kae, and the people who know that Kreia is not really Kae because it is non-canon, due to it being cut content.

 

I don't think it's a solution, but then I don't think we need one either. The matter is ambigious with clues pointing in one direction and others elsewhere. Mystery surrounds Kreia because of it, which suits the character just fine. I'm content to let the matter remain as unresolved as Kreia's goals are in the end - did she succeed or fail? We don't know. Was she Kae? We don't know...

 

As such it's fine. But I will play the devil's advocate and speak up when people state that Kreia cannot be Kae. I've admitted all along that we have no conclusive evidence that Kreia is the same person as Kae, but I'll also maintain that the she can be and reserve the argument to the contrary, since there is no conclusive evidence of that either. Speculation that she is not Kae, because it would otherwise have been said so, is just that - speculation. It is not evidence, no matter how much and how strongly people choose to express it. If they don't want Kreia to be Kae because they don't like the idea, however, then that's fine - at least they're being honest about it.

[Platinumboi]

well, I just read that according to Chris Avellone, kreis is about 50 years old, so it's entirely possible for her to be Brianna's mother, and as far as her being physically tainted by the DS, he said that her desing is based on Palpatine, so it's entirely possible(even probable) that the same thing that happened to palpatine happened to her.

 

Also, I got that from wikipedia, so it may not be entirely reliable, but it would help somewhat in the argument for Kreia being Brianna's mother.

 

just putting my two cents in

[Druganator]

im sure this has been mentioned but what about when mical says that at the end revan returned to his first master and kreia says revan returned to me in the end but the game says that kae was revans first master sooooo........?

[Ravnas]

Hmm, I guess I'm in the Kreia is Arren Kae camp as well, if only for this reason,http://fromearth.net/LetsPlay/KOTOR%202/Update%2058/index.html

[Achilles]

Yeah, the evidence is pretty overwhelming. I guess that those that need to have a "smoking gun" will not be satisfied until a dev comes right out and spoon feeds it to us.

[HIGH ON PIE 14]

Good link Ravnas. When you add all that up its about as clear as you can be without just coming out and saying "Kreia is Handmaiden's mother." The only part that is questionable is the "I honor the face of my mother" I don't think their faces look alike at all. Just my two cents.

 

~HOP

[Burnseyy]

I think this is quite convicing proof.

The dark side made Kreia look different to her, and the fact Kae and Kreia were exiled and so on so forth, is pretty interesting.

 

Though it is strange how Handmaiden and Kreia never reacted to it. Kreia might be manipultive and had her features corrupted by the darkside, but a daughter would always know thier mother.

 

Right?

[HIGH ON PIE 14]

Maybe, but then again, maybe not. I think that Brianna has no idea that Kreia is her mother, or surely she would have said something. Brianna seems to respect her mother and I'm sure is she was aware that her mother was vstaying in the same ship, there would have been some communication at least.

 

What is intesting is that through the whole game, Handmaiden and Kreia have very little contact on the Hawk. There are scenes of her and Atton, Disciple, but no HM. Interesting...

 

~HOP

[Achilles]

Except that Handmaiden never saw her mother and thought she was dead.

[Burnseyy]

Good point.

 

I hate how KOTOR cut so much. But that was never in cut material was it?

[HIGH ON PIE 14]

@Achilles:Right, thats what I said. - If Brianna knew Kreia was her mother, she definitly would have said something. But Brianna believes her mother to be dead so, she is not even on the lookout.

 

Kreia obviously knows who Brianna is though and it is interesting that there was very little contact between them.

 

~HOP

[Shem]

The whole Kreia as the same person as Kae never sat well with me.

 

It just raises more questions (or statements) to the motive "why" if that was going to be the case!

 

-Why wasn’t that revealed in the game itself? Kreia died, end of story. What would be the point of not revealing it after the game’s events because now it becomes a side issue which really weakens the plot behind it if it were true.

 

-Why hasn’t it been revealed after 3 ½ years since the game has been released? What are they waiting for? Don’t say KOTOR III because that would be something that would distract the story of the next chapter of the game series. The only way that would work out well is if both Kreia and Brianna were main characters in that game. That wouldn’t be the case.

 

 

 

Could you imagine if they were to leave hints about the Revan revelation, but never actually revealed in K1, but revealed in TSL? That would be bad storytelling, especially since Revan was just talked about, but was never around in the game.

 

 

 

-The female Exile is now considered the canon way of playing the game. That means the Handmaiden’s role is has been limited to just stealing the Ebon Hawk, telling your party to lay down their weapons, asking Atris about caring for the Exile once, and other optional conversations you could have with her at the Polar Region. Once you leave, her small role in the game is over.

 

-The hints used to support the theory they’re the same person are easily debunked making it just pure speculation without conclusive facts.

 

-We were told that no twists were going to be in TSL. There’s a hint left in one of the dialogue files about that:

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/301/notwistshkv7.jpg

 

-Kreia makes it clear that she was cast out because of her teachings and beliefs. It was also stated that Kae was exiled for having a child. In TSL, it was clear that Kreia is against love, but wants to prove that her teachings are right. If love was something she thought was right, she would be in the same boat as Jolee Bindo in how she felt about it. If she did believe in love, she wouldn’t have changed her mind about it because that would prove in her mind that one of the Jedi teachings was correct and I don’t think she would dare do that. If there were any issues she agreed with the Jedi on; it would be teachings she already believed in before her exile. She would not change her mind and say the Jedi were right about something after her bitter exile. Kreia was on a mission to prove that she was right and the Jedi were wrong.

 

-Kreia serving under Revan during the Mandalorian Wars is something I can’t picture her doing. She likes to be the master; the one in charge; that way she is in control. She’s also someone who prefers to resolve conflicts through pacifism and manipulation, even to a point to play tricks on people’s minds, not violence. I believe it was stated that the Jedi thought Kreia “died” during the Mandalorian Wars; never stating she was killed. Not everybody who died during the Mandalorian Wars was a part of it.

 

-Kreia hates Atris with a passion. Why would she want to leave her child with Atris of all people? She would have manipulated that situation differently and we know she’s good at getting what she wants. If anything, she would have tried to keep, perhaps hide her and use her for her cunning purposes. This reminds that if Kreia wanted to hide Brianna’s existence from the Jedi Council, she would have gotten away with it. Anybody who knows Kreia knows she’s very clever.

 

There are other questions I have thought up in the past about this whole situation that I haven’t brought to attention. If anything, I hope I’ve made enough points why I can’t buy into it so at least you understand my personal point of view.

 

It’s possible that a revelation could come out and say that Kreia and Kae are the game person. If that were to happen, I would be one of the first to admit I was wrong. The only thing that would puzzle me is that some things wouldn’t add up with the whole situation and there would have to be holes to fill so there would be nothing that contracts the revelation. That way it’s not bad story telling. I would find that hard to do to be honest.

 

I’m more in the boat that it’s something that probably will never be resolved. Perhaps “no comment” was mentioned about the situation by Chris Avellone (I believe it was him) was because he wanted to leave something for us to talk about and debate. If I was in his shoes, I probably would have said the same thing just to keep the debate alive and keep something fresh about a game that is many years old. Those who know me best know that is something I’m very capable of doing and enjoy watching people debate and get a few good laughs, especially if I knew I was responsible for the reason why it’s still debated. Maybe it would be a good thing to leave unsolved. That way we have something to talk about for a game that is closing in on four years.

 

Am I here to change your mind? No. What would be the point of that to be honest? Most people who go at each other back and forth trying to change other people’s minds already have made up their minds on what they are going to believe so trying to change it is pointless. The debates become pointless because many times bitter feelings towards the other person you’re debating can develop because both sides are suborn.

 

Once someone sets their mind to something, most likely they’re not going to change it. Life has taught me that many people won’t even accept the truth even when it’s revealed to them, which is why I love Carth’s quote that you see in my signature because I have a great respect for those who can accept the truth when it’s presented in front of them, even if they don’t like it. People’s pride and/or ego are the only thing that holds them back in those situations because they have this obsession about having to be right about almost everything. I’m already seeing signs of this when I skim through this debate.

[HIGH ON PIE 14]

My guess, is that like numerous other things in TSL, discovering that Kreia is Kae was cut content, or possbly not even finished by the time of TSLs release. It is true that the Handmaiden's role is limited, though I don't see what that has to do with it. Can you please explain, Shem?

 

Well, yes, Kreia claims she was thrown out because of her beliefs, but it would not be the first time Kreia lied, would it? What is important to remember is that people change. Shem is absolutly right in thinking that Kreia certainly would not be following Revan to war. Possibly the war changed her, but that is just speculation.

 

Did Handmaidens mother give her to Atris, or did she just end up there because she was a half sister? I honestly don't remember the answer to that. If HM says her mother left her there, then Shem has made a good point.

 

I choose to believe that Kreia is Kae because of the evidence presented in Ravnas' link. Each one of those scraps alone can be easily debunked, but all together...hmm, thats a lot of coincidences, too many to just brush off as circumstantial IMHO.

[Giant Graffiti]

I never got the whole Kreia/Kae thing. A lot of the arguments make absolutely no sense, like the "Kae + Traya = Kreia" one. (It's almost as bad as Sideous = Sifo-Dyas)

 

Kreia hates Atris with a passion. Why would she want to leave her child with Atris of all people?

 

Maybe she had to give Brianna up to Atris for some reason and that's why she hates her. But then again, if this were true Kreia probably would've said something to Brianna. It's possible that we didn't see every interaction on the Ebon Hawk, but I think that would just be bad storytelling.

[JCarter426]

I never got the whole Kreia/Kae thing. A lot of the arguments make absolutely no sense, like the "Kae + Traya = Kreia" one.

Eh, that's just the tip of the iceberg. What evidence there is is very vague and ambiguous, with good reason--Kreia's past is supposed to be mysterious. If we knew the entire truth, well, that would kill the mystery. K2 is like that; you just have to look at what's there and decide for yourself.

 

As for the other, no one ever said Kae left Brianna with Atris. Brianna mentions that she lived with her father several years after Kae's supposed death (she would have only been thirteen or fourteen at the time of Malachor. So if anyone left Brianna with Kae, it would be Yusanis or someone else in the family.

 

And as for Kreia's interactions with Brianna, Kreia doesn't like anybody. It wouldn't surprise me if Kreia hated her child; after all, she claims that's why Kae was exiled. She clearly hates Brianna (and everybody else that still breathes), and more importantly she hates her past. If Brianna were her daughter, Kreia would certainly not come out with it. So again, this isn't strong evidence that Kreia is Kae, but it isn't evidence of the opposite, either.

[TKA-001]

well, I just read that according to Chris Avellone, kreis is about 50 years old

There's no way that Kreia is that young.

[Achilles]

Good point.

 

I hate how KOTOR cut so much. But that was never in cut material was it?

Not to the best of my knowledge, no. To be honest, I don't think we need to look to the "cut content" to see the pieces. It's the same thing with movies. Some people really like it when the director leaves some stuff unspoken or hinted at and trusts the audience to be able to put it together. Personally, I like it when I'm not bludgeoned over the head with something because the act of putting it together makes me feel closer to the characters. I really do think that same dynamic is a work here.

 

Of course, not everyone shares this viewpoint, hence why Michael Bay films do so well here in the U.S.

[Gavroche]

-Why wasn’t that revealed in the game itself? Kreia died, end of story. What would be the point of not revealing it after the game’s events because now it becomes a side issue which really weakens the plot behind it if it were true.

 

-Why hasn’t it been revealed after 3 ½ years since the game has been released? What are they waiting for? Don’t say KOTOR III because that would be something that would distract the story of the next chapter of the game series. The only way that would work out well is if both Kreia and Brianna were main characters in that game. That wouldn’t be the case.

 

What was the point of not revealing the HK factory? The point of not having Atton dying against Sion? That's cut content's point, if there's any.

 

As for why it's not been revealed after 3 years and a half... It's one thing to admit they've cut something because players noticed there is unused content in the game files. It's another to say straightly "And you couldn't guess it 'cause files aren't in, but we also cut this, we decided to ditch that, we did not have enough time for this, and we also scrapped that. Heh. Could never guess we discarded so many things, could you?". That's called saving face.

 

Avellone's answer to Emperor Devon shows this quite well, IMO. He can't say anything that would show how Obsidian was pressured by LucasArts (how many times did he say all was his fault?), but he still feels "sorry" for not revealing such an important (and thanks to fans' awareness, evident) part of the plot.

 

-The female Exile is now considered the canon way of playing the game. That means the Handmaiden’s role is has been limited to just stealing the Ebon Hawk, telling your party to lay down their weapons, asking Atris about caring for the Exile once, and other optional conversations you could have with her at the Polar Region. Once you leave, her small role in the game is over.

Wizards of the Coast just released their Campaign Guide for Knights of the Old Republic. They say Brianna followed the Exile. Whether they forgot that the Exile is now female, or they were perfectly aware of it (Leland Chee had already said that "maybe" she followed her) is unimportant. Now it's canon.

 

-The hints used to support the theory they’re the same person are easily debunked making it just pure speculation without conclusive facts.

Taken individually, yeah, the hints seem pure coincidences. Added together, it just looks way too big to be coincidences.

 

-We were told that no twists were going to be in TSL. There’s a hint left in one of the dialogue files about that:

http://img182.imageshack.us/img182/301/notwistshkv7.jpg

Indeed, there's no such "I'm your father" intended for the Exile, meaning Kreia's choice was not motivated by a secret, plot-twisting reason. This developper note only applies to this - the reason why Kreia chose the Exile. It does not refer to whatever relation may or may not exist between Kreia and Brianna.

 

-Kreia makes it clear that she was cast out because of her teachings and beliefs. It was also stated that Kae was exiled for having a child. In TSL, it was clear that Kreia is against love, but wants to prove that her teachings are right. If love was something she thought was right, she would be in the same boat as Jolee Bindo in how she felt about it. If she did believe in love, she wouldn’t have changed her mind about it because that would prove in her mind that one of the Jedi teachings was correct and I don’t think she would dare do that. If there were any issues she agreed with the Jedi on; it would be teachings she already believed in before her exile. She would not change her mind and say the Jedi were right about something after her bitter exile. Kreia was on a mission to prove that she was right and the Jedi were wrong.

Let's put it this way: Kae's teachings do not please the Council, but they still see that she manages to turn her pupils away from the Order ("all my pupils have been failures who went to war", or something like that).

They are itching for a reason to cast her out, but they need a good reason for it (they can't just say that's because of her teachings. The best way to make people read a book is to publicly announce you forbid anyone to read it).

Out of luck, they learn she's bonded to Yusanis. Better, she's got a daughter with him. So they go all "zOMG u has make a baby, u not has rigth lulz! we casts u out!!!!!!11Lim(x->0)=(sin(x)/x)" and cast her out.

 

We then have two reasons why Kae was exiled. The official, Council-approved one, because she's had a daughter. As we know, that's a stupid reason, as at this era numerous Jedi were allowed to have children (and the wives/husbands who go with it, of course). But, eh, they had to cast her out, and they had to do it quickly, so they did not really bother with finding a good reason.

The informal one, the one they want to keep secret: Her teachings were dangerous to their Order.

Kreia is the only one that is mentionned to have been exiled due to her teachings. Every times we hear about Kae, she's said to have been exiled due to her daughter. IMO that means that the Council's been quite successful at hiding the truth, and that only Kreia knows this truth.

I personally like to interpret Kavar's "I thought you died in war" this way: "Dang, we've been trying to get you out of the scene so hardly, we've been casting you out so you would have nothing else to do than follow Yusanis to war and die there without spreading your sh*t any further, and you still managed to survive?!! Crap!"

 

But you made another point here though - Kreia's not really a love supporter. Well, nobody's born as a cryptic old manipulative witch. People change during their life. It's even more true when we talk about Kreia, who's always been trying to find "the truth", with Jedi teachings, with Sith teachings, finally with her own philosophy. I would not be surprised if during her travels in the realm of truths, she had had a sojourn in the "Love's the answer to everything" island.

 

-Kreia serving under Revan during the Mandalorian Wars is something I can’t picture her doing. She likes to be the master; the one in charge; that way she is in control. She’s also someone who prefers to resolve conflicts through pacifism and manipulation, even to a point to play tricks on people’s minds, not violence. I believe it was stated that the Jedi thought Kreia “died” during the Mandalorian Wars; never stating she was killed. Not everybody who died during the Mandalorian Wars was a part of it.

True, Kreia as a warrior sounds weird. Not much to say here, except the "people change during their life", though I'm not convinced myself.

 

Though, Kreia is not all for pacifism. Quite the contrary. She strongly believes the Echani motto that "people find their purpose in conflict". "Apathy is death", "Being helped is being weakened", all this stuff shows she thinks conflict is what makes people strong.

 

-Kreia hates Atris with a passion. Why would she want to leave her child with Atris of all people? She would have manipulated that situation differently and we know she’s good at getting what she wants. If anything, she would have tried to keep, perhaps hide her and use her for her cunning purposes. This reminds that if Kreia wanted to hide Brianna’s existence from the Jedi Council, she would have gotten away with it. Anybody who knows Kreia knows she’s very clever.

After Yusanis got killed by Revan, and she started her sojourn to Malachor V, she may have started not to care about her "family" anymore. That'd be the pivotal moment between the warrior Kae, fighting alongside Yusanis, hoping to win the war to return triumphally and prove the Council wrong, and the manipulative Traya we know.

Anyway, I don't know if Kae ever cared about her daughter. Brianna's the one who is officially responsible for her exile, after all.

I like to think that Kae left Brianna under Atris' guard as a bomb that would explode later. Brianna is the only Handmaiden that ever questionned Atris' orders. These questions and her connection to the Force are Kreia's heritage. And which Handmaiden had the closest relation to Atris? Brianna. She dared asking things to her mistress that the others would not.

So it might be going a bit too far in the conspiracy theory, but I suspect Kae knew that Atris had doubts about the Jedi way and thus let her keep Brianna, who would not follow her orders as blindly as the other Sisters, and would participate to her fall.

 

 

 

 

Now, I'm not trying to convince anyone either. This thread's been active for so long, everybody is holding their grounds now. If someone at Obsidian just arrived and said "Okay guys, that's been fun to watch you debatting of this during all this time, but, heh, we thought it'd be nice from us to tell you that, er... Kreia's not Kae. And that's it.", well, I'd just accept it (of course, not without an evil cackle and a loud "But you'll see, one day I'll be riiiiight!!", but that's not important ). The thing is, you were asking questions, so I felt compelled to answer them, with answers I think/hope to be true.

 

Just debatting for debatting's sake. Keeps mind sharp

[Shem]

Now, I'm not trying to convince anyone either.

The difference here is I was pointing out my issues to why Kreia isn't Kae. I never once tried to debate someone one-on-one. Plus, your counter debates can be easily debunked. That's the problem with this whole theory and that is it is easily debunked on every point.

 

 

We then have two reasons why Kae was exiled. The official, Council-approved one, because she's had a daughter. As we know, that's a stupid reason, as at this era numerous Jedi were allowed to have children (and the wives/husbands who go with it, of course). But, eh, they had to cast her out, and they had to do it quickly, so they did not really bother with finding a good reason.

Here is where you got lost.

 

I think you need something in K1 to be refreshed:

 

Bastila making it clear that Jedi are not suppose to fall in love was true back then as it was in the Prequel era. So saying they needed to find a reason is a big stretch as was many of your other arguments. Plus you didn't even talk about the part where Kreia is very smart. If she wanted to hide the fact she had a child, she would have succeeded.

 

Now, if you were trying to put my mind at ease with my many issues, it didn't work. You have to believe many things that contradict Kreia's personality and people don't change so quickly, especially in the time frame when it was suppose to happen.

 

Though, Kreia is not all for pacifism. Quite the contrary.

She prefers it. It's quite strange for a Sith Lord to be the way she is, but that is her first preference if all possible. This is why she was a historian. It keeps her in the Jedi Library like Jocasta Nu instead of being put into situations where she has to fight a lot.

 

Again, you have to speculate a lot of things to make this theory happen to a point where the main character in this is way out of character. The older you get, the less likely you strange so drastically; you stay more set in your ways.

 

With the fact that this hasn't be revealed is not good story telling because now the character involved is dead and is irrelevant to the next chapter of the KOTOR story. To throw in this "twist" in KOTOR III would be taking up time that should have been in TSL and what would be the point of taking the story off track just to do that? Then they would have to explain a lot of plot inconsistencies with Kreia's character that they better have an explanation ready so it all makes sense. I feel like I'm talking to the people who believed Palpatine was a clone of Sidious theorists before ROTS in a way. There would have been a lot to explain how that would have worked all in sake to have a twist in the Prequels like they did in ESB, which would have been sidetracked the whole plot to have it make sense. Yet, it was simpler to just have Palpatine = Sidious and people catch on really quickly if they didn't realize that before. Same thing here; lots to be explained to make it all make sense.

 

We're coming on four years since the game was released and only us fanatics have this fresh in our heads. Do you know how many people who watch my videos on YouTube have forgotten a lot about what has happened since they last played the games years ago? Even main characters are forgotten about, or what their roles were. To the average person who would play KOTOR III learning of this would probably be very confusing and then wondering why such a side issue is being brought up. KOTOR III would get a lot of criticism in story telling.

 

If my foresight to what can happen in the future with this isn't good enough for you to understand why this isn't a good idea, then I don't know what else to tell you.

[Gavroche]

You're right, despite the Sunrider or Draay Jedi families, love was not allowed in the Jedi Order. So maybe it was a good reason to cast Kae out. But if she was Kreia, then I believe it's only an "official" reason.

 

 

<off-topic />I don't see any reason to make KotOR III involved here. Of course Kreia is dead and will not have any role to play in K3. Does this prevent us from digging more inside characters' backstories? I hope not.

I mean, if we can't discuss Kreia being Kae because it will confuse K3 players, Team Gizka might as well not release their Restoration Project. I don't see why Bioware would care about Kreia in their K3, so I guess we can safely discuss about obscure points of the plot and let "the average KOTOR III players" play their game and forget about the characters two months later.

I don't know why we're involving these guys. They don't care about the the Kreia = Kae theory, they don't care about the HK factory, abotu Kaevee, all they care about is "when is the game coming?" and "when is the next game coming?".

 

I may be overlooking the damage that such a retcon would cause to K3, but I just can't see why "average players" would bother about events in TSL if they are such forgetful persons. They just simply don't care anymore about the game, if we consider their comments on your videos. And I've never been expecting Bioware to try to retcon it, that's not their job. KOTOR III clearly has no role in this affair to me.

 

 

I was not trying to debate you "one-on-one". I was seeing you had precise issues about the theory, so I provided the answers I thought correct, as I would have done with anyone who had the patience to show why the whole theory was wrong in his opinion. You had such patience, so it would be rude to just ignore the post you made, because it would mean ignoring your opinion.

I'm not standing against every single guy who does not support the theory, I'm not taking it personnally. I'm (trying to) bringing counter-arguments to those who bring arguments, because I believe it's the point of forums.

I can accept that my points are easily debunked. In fact, they could even have been debunked in a previous page in this thread, and in this case I'm just bothering everybody while making the debate circle '^^

 

I'm agreeing with you on one thing, though. Believing in this theory brings far too much contradictions in Kreia's character. If Obsidian ever intended her to be Kae, I wish they had the time to develop the whole thing so those contradictions disappear. But as of now, Kreia = Kae does not fit well her character.

[nine.roses]

Yeah, the evidence is pretty overwhelming. I guess that those that need to have a "smoking gun" will not be satisfied until a dev comes right out and spoon feeds it to us.

 

That’s a fantastically odd position for you to take, Achilles. There’s as much clear evidence in this fragile theory as there is for Creationism. Just because you’ve managed to join some dots doesn’t mean an image was supposed to be there in the first place. Consider for a moment that they may just be dots: just as a series of coincidences throughout history are just coincidences...

 

I would like to point out that Kreia is always one for mystery and ambiguity – she gives you a lot of leverage to insert any theory you would like about her, especially as Kreia’s personality allows any commentator to manipulate her words to appear as solid facts or else dismiss them as clear lies. In fact, I could spend this post weaving together a number of different pieces of evidence and create an argument that Kreia is, in fact, Krynda Draay – or even Nomi Sunrider. I could make it fairly convincing, at least on the surface, and suddenly such an idea would not seem so farfetched: it's just another way of joining up dots without numbers, after all.

 

It would be best to take a more objective look at these dots, myriad as they are, without reading deep between the lines. I won’t pick it apart entirely: I don’t have the time. However, I’d like to deal with a few points which have come to my attention:

 

Kreia and Kae both "died" in the Mandalorian Wars: That this is true is not even a coincidence. Billions died in the war, including a great number of Jedi: Kae is not a special corpse. Both Kreia and Revan apparently "died", yet as has been said previously in this thread, villains and heroes in comic books come back from the dead all the time. Kreia could be one of any number of MIA female Jedi.

 

Kae's body was never found: Though this is true, it is unlikely that any bodies at all were recovered from Malachor. When the Remote recharged the Mass Shadow Generator, I doubt that the cadavers he encountered in the buried ships had been disturbed since their demise. Malachor is a graveyard for millions, as was Alderaan three thousand years later. Bail Organa's body was never found - but it doesn't mean he's alive. It just means he's been vaporised.

 

Brianna bears the face of her mother: That Kreia looked much like Brianna at the age of 25 is naught but speculation: the differences in age are too great to make a judgement, and as such any resemblance or apparent difference is really only a matter of personal opinion. On a different note, though Brianna “bears the face of her mother” it does not mean she would or would not instantly recognise her based on this premise, especially considering that she also bears vestiges of Echani heritage and apparently has never actually seen her mother.

 

The Handmaiden possesses Kae’s Robe: First of all, I do not think the robe was explicitly stated to have been the one worn by Arren Kae on Malachor V. It could be, though as Kae’s body was "never found" this is unlikely. This said, any self-respecting Jedi would not have just a single set of robes: see the difference between Vrook's robes in K1 and TSL, and likewise with robes belonging to Jolee Bindo. Or, to move into movie territory, the varieties of robe worn by Anakin Skywalker and Obi Wan across the prequel trilogy. Perhaps the robes that Brianna wears were the ones her mother left with Yusanis on Echani?

 

Kae cannot have been exiled because of love: We all understand that the Jedi High Council is a changing body of people with often different opinions and views. The Jedi Masters who forgave Jolee after the Great Sith War are entirely different people to those who judged Arren Kae; and in the wake of a war rather than the onset of one, were probably in a more forgiving mood too. It is no great surprise that Kae was exiled for having a child (even assuming it was the sole reason for her dismissal) in a period when going against the grain brought heavy retribution: the Covenant fiasco, the reaction to the Revanchist movement, the sentencing of Kreia and the entire Exile affair serve to illustrate this.