Patch Balance Thread at Petro

[ImpElite]

plus this is a GAME NOT CANON, things have to be balanced otherwise the Empire and maybe the Consortium would kick everyone's butt no sweat.

[TearsOfIsha]

I strongly disagree, there should be NO changes to the Mon Cal's! They work just fine, besides they aren't supposed to be super-strong. They are outfitted luxury cruisers, not battleships...

 

I'm sick of hearing this argument. Yes, it works great for canon, but it doesn't help the game at all. The Mon Cal is alright against an ISD but they are absolutely pathetic against Keldabes. I can't work out whether the Keldabe is the most unbalanced pile of crap that I've ever had the misfortune of playing against (that shield leech ability alone is basically a cheat) or whther the Mon Cal has been abandoned by Petro. But bleating on about how the Mon Cal should be weaker than the ISD is totally pointless without coming up with the agrument that Rebel Fighters should 0wn Imperial counterparts. You can't have everything - that's why the ZC is basically seen as mistake by a lot of the peopl on this board, they don't have anything approaching balance.

 

The rebel strategy is to outmaneuver the enemy, not overpower the enemy (overpowering is the imperial philosophy).

 

Great. Now all the rebels need is the ability to do so. But they don't. Hence the f**king huge balance problems.

 

I have played as the Rebels in FOC and they work perfectly...if you know how to use them effectively.

 

Why is it when anyone asks for something to be upgraded the argument degenrates into some genius saying "you just don't know how to use them blah blah blah". Tell me Valter, is having a Mon Cal cruiser destroyed before it gets more than one volley off by a keldabe, 'working perfectly'?

 

No it isn't. If that was supposed to happen the Mon Cal cruisers would have a price of 100 and a pop. of 1.

[Shadow_015]

I'm sick of hearing this argument. Yes, it works great for canon, but it doesn't help the game at all. The Mon Cal is alright against an ISD but they are absolutely pathetic against Keldabes. I can't work out whether the Keldabe is the most unbalanced pile of crap that I've ever had the misfortune of playing against (that shield leech ability alone is basically a cheat) or whther the Mon Cal has been abandoned by Petro. But bleating on about how the Mon Cal should be weaker than the ISD is totally pointless without coming up with the agrument that Rebel Fighters should 0wn Imperial counterparts. You can't have everything - that's why the ZC is basically seen as mistake by a lot of the peopl on this board, they don't have anything approaching balance.

 

 

 

Great. Now all the rebels need is the ability to do so. But they don't. Hence the f**king huge balance problems.

 

 

 

Why is it when anyone asks for something to be upgraded the argument degenrates into some genius saying "you just don't know how to use them blah blah blah". Tell me Valter, is having a Mon Cal cruiser destroyed before it gets more than one volley off by a keldabe, 'working perfectly'?

 

No it isn't. If that was supposed to happen the Mon Cal cruisers would have a price of 100 and a pop. of 1.

 

I totally agree with this. Finally someone who understands it. The bottom line is, The Consortium have totally thrown the game off-balance. And I definitely think the MonCals have been left behind.

 

And Valter, you say the Rebels' strategy is to 'outmaneuver the enemy'. Well, that's very open ended considering the fact that you can do that with ALL sides. There's no special function which allows them to do that so the argument isn't very strong.

 

By the way thanks SAGEKING-PG for giving us a heads-up. I'm anxiously waiting for a patch because at the moment it isn't very much fun playing with the bugs.

[Shadow_015]

I'll tell you again, the rebel strategy in FOC is to outmaneuver the enemy, not overpower the enemy. Besides, the Mon Cal will always defeat a Imperial Star Destroyer in combat because of the "boost shields" ability.

 

 

 

The rebels still have some advantages in the fighter department; The B-wings can lock s-foils, rendering the fighter virtually untouchable by laser fire and increasing the Incidence of bombing runs, A-wings are better than TIE Interceptors thanks to the "lure" ability and X-wings are faster than any TIE fighter (when using s-foils).

 

 

 

I agree with you here but I don't think giving Mon Cal's a hangar bay is the solution. Now THAT would cause balance problems like mass spamming X-wings and Y-wings.

 

 

 

What will giving the Mon Cal's a hangar bay solve? Tell me Specifically ...

 

The way it was discussed on Petroglyph's forums and stating that now the specs of the ISD are now better than the MonCal and make it more powerful than a MonCal, it throws the game off balance. I will say it again: in the original the ISD's ability was to be able to spawn a lot of fighters, while the MonCal had shields and both ships had the same armament.

 

Now, the ISD is more powerful as an individual ship and can spawn a lot of fighters, but the MonCal is untouched. That is unfair, because there is no boost whatsoever for a MonCal. I never said MonCals should be able to spawn unlimited fighters, I said they should get 2 squadrons of different fighter-types and once those die they will be replaced. This would not be spamming fighters, but it would make use of the 'direct-all fire' ability (for the Home One) and again balance the game as both capital ships now have fighters and they both have their special abilities (ISD is stronger, MC has strong shields and both have same armament).

 

In terms of fighters. Having S-foils is fine and all and it makes the fighters better, but not in combat mode. From what you are saying, it would take A LOT of micro-managing to handle the fighters and line them up for an attack-run on ISDs switching back and forth between S-foils. This should not be the way you would have to do it, their advantages should be natural - the S-foils are there for added speed ability with maneuvering around the map.

[ImpElite]

wow, this guy has multi-post written all over him lol

[wedge2211]

What about increasing the speed and turn rate of the Mon Calamari Cruisers instead of improving their weapons? As long as they can stay in the blind spot behind an ISD, it doesn't really matter how many guns they have...and that would be more in keeping with both the idea of the canon and balancing each side with relative advantages and disadvantages.

[Shadow_015]

wow, this guy has multi-post written all over him lol

 

well i haven't figured out how to fit multiple quotes into one post so i have to reply individually since im new to this, so bear with me. Unless you'd like to give me some pointers and explain it to me?

[wedge2211]

You can set up multiple quotes by typing in the BBcode manually in your post:

 

{quote="whoever you are quoting"}

paste whatever they said

{/quote}

 

...only you should use square brackets [] instead of curly braces {}, which I used so that the board won't actually turn the above code into a quote.

[Valter]

I totally agree with this. Finally someone who understands it. The bottom line is, The Consortium have totally thrown the game off-balance. And I definitely think the MonCals have been left behind.

 

Maybe nerfing the Consortium cruisers is the answer to the balance problems...

 

And Valter, you say the Rebels' strategy is to 'outmaneuver the enemy'. Well, that's very open ended considering the fact that you can do that with ALL sides. There's no special function which allows them to do that so the argument isn't very strong.

 

Actually, you can't outmaneuver the enemy with every side. The rebel cruisers are twice as fast as their Imperial counterparts for a reason. They are made for hit and run tactics not toe-to-toe slugging matches.

 

I agree that the Mon Cals are weaker than the Star Destroyers now that they are upgraded, but I don't think giving them a hangar bay is the answer. Maybe increase their rate of fire or increase their shield refresh rate. Maybe they don't need any changes, just nerf the Consortium. They do quite well against Star Destroyers anyway.

[CabooseOMalley]

I'm looking forward to this patch, just hoping that there will be bug fixes aswell...

 

Oh, and Shadow_015,

I've watched all the RvB seasons, twice, and I've got to say that it's Tucker that says "Bow - Chicka - Bow - Wow" - NOT Caboose, he's the dumb one....

[wedge2211]

There will be bug fixes, they just haven't presented a list.

[TearsOfIsha]

Maybe nerfing the Consortium cruisers is the answer to the balance problems...

 

That's quite possible. Thing is, the rebels appear to have recieved the most nerfs, and there was a feeling that nothing was going to be toned down.

 

I certainly don't remember anything in the patch list that mentioned anything about the Keldabe being brought into line - there was even an upgrade for the Vengeance frigate.....

 

Actually, you can't outmaneuver the enemy with every side. The rebel cruisers are twice as fast as their Imperial counterparts for a reason. They are made for hit and run tactics not toe-to-toe slugging matches.

 

I really not sure what kind of point you're trying to make here. Taken literally, you point here makes no sense, as the pathfinding on Star Cruisers (particularly Home One) is awful - the very idea of describing them as 'made for hit and run tactics' is comical. They aren't. In this game, they're meant for shooting things.

 

I agree that the Mon Cals are weaker than the Star Destroyers now that they are upgraded, but I don't think giving them a hangar bay is the answer. Maybe increase their rate of fire or increase their shield refresh rate.

 

I must admit, I don't honestly see a hangar bay as being the answer. Home One needs buckets of guns (4 more turbolasers and 2 more Ion Cannons, placed evenly, would be excellent) and the basic MC80s need at least two more of turbos and Ions each. The Boost shield ability is pretty good as it is.

[Shadow_015]

I'm looking forward to this patch, just hoping that there will be bug fixes aswell...

 

Oh, and Shadow_015,

I've watched all the RvB seasons, twice, and I've got to say that it's Tucker that says "Bow - Chicka - Bow - Wow" - NOT Caboose, he's the dumb one....

 

OH CRAP lol!!! Sorry! Yeah I totally mistyped that cos on another forum I have this other quote from Caboose. So I think when I was typing this one in I accidentally put it in wrong. I have the same quote on Gamespot but with Tucker's name on it - didn't catch it. Thanks!

[jedi7000nathan]

plus this is a GAME NOT CANON, things have to be balanced otherwise the Empire and maybe the Consortium would kick everyone's butt no sweat.

 

 

The game is canon why would lucasarts create a non canon game and if they it is you won't findm here posting

[ImpElite]

"and if they it is you won't findm here posting "

 

sorry dont' really understand what you're saying there....

[Shadow_015]

"and if they it is you won't findm here posting "

 

sorry dont' really understand what you're saying there....

 

just to clarify, i believe he said 'and if it is you wont find me here posting'....

[ImpElite]

oooh maybe that's it, thanks.

[Valter]

I really not sure what kind of point you're trying to make here. Taken literally, you point here makes no sense, as the pathfinding on Star Cruisers (particularly Home One) is awful - the very idea of describing them as 'made for hit and run tactics' is comical. They aren't. In this game, they're meant for shooting things.

 

I apologize, I'll elaborate on that statement. Every rebel ship (except the Mon Cal's) is made for hit and run tactics; deal some damage, retreat and let the shields refresh, deal some more damage. Most of the rebel fighters have s-foils to increase their speed. Corvettes have the "boost speed" ability. The MC-30 is the fastest frigate in the game. The Alliance Assault frigate is faster than the Victory cruiser. My point is the rebels may not be more powerful than the other sides but they certainly are faster and that's a huge advantage in my opinion.

 

In a way every side has it's advantage in Space Combat. The Imperials are overpowering, the rebels have fast ships, and the Consortium...well the Consortium is just plain unbalanced and cheap.

 

I still say nerfing the Consortium will solve most of the balance issues with space battles.

[wedge2211]

I certainly don't remember anything in the patch list that mentioned anything about the Keldabe being brought into line - there was even an upgrade for the Vengeance frigate.....

This is from the patch changelist:

 

Keldabe

Ion cannon shot volley decreased from 10 to 3 per round

Turbolaser shot volley decreased from 10 to 8 per round

[ImpElite]

In a way every side has it's advantage in Space Combat. The Imperials are overpowering, the rebels have fast ships, and the Consortium...well the Consortium is just plain unbalanced and cheap.

 

I still say nerfing the Consortium will solve most of the balance issues with space battles.

 

..... UNBALANCED and CHEAP? Okay Imps, you're going down.

[TearsOfIsha]

I apologize, I'll elaborate on that statement. Every rebel ship (except the Mon Cal's) is made for hit and run tactics; deal some damage, retreat and let the shields refresh, deal some more damage. Most of the rebel fighters have s-foils to increase their speed. Corvettes have the "boost speed" ability. The MC-30 is the fastest frigate in the game. The Alliance Assault frigate is faster than the Victory cruiser. My point is the rebels may not be more powerful than the other sides but they certainly are faster and that's a huge advantage in my opinion.

 

In a way every side has it's advantage in Space Combat. The Imperials are overpowering, the rebels have fast ships, and the Consortium...well the Consortium is just plain unbalanced and cheap.

 

 

The problem is, it may be a huge advantage in your opinion but it doesn't translate into specific advantages in the context of the space battles. Raw speed never wins anything - Especially considering the ranges of of some of the Imperial units (like ISDs and Broadsides). The MC30 also happens to have the worst defences in the game, but I agree - that particular ship is meant for hit'n'run, but not the whole fleet. The Assault Frigate may be faster than the Victory but it isn't fast *enough* to make much of a difference in the long run - The boost shields ability is far more useful to reinforce a capital ship under fire rather than refresh the shields after an attack.

 

The rebels are still restricted by population caps so they can't bring in more stuff to replace the other ships that are currently running rather than hitting, which translates into massive holes in their defense.

 

Bottom line is, a large number of the rebel ships are meant for hit and run but the entire fleet isn't. There just don't have the stats to work in that role.

And none of this is a good enough resaon to leave the Mon Cal behind.

 

I still say nerfing the Consortium will solve most of the balance issues with space battles.

 

Yeah, I agree here. Currently the only way to defeat them is through attrition or mass bomber strikes, which is boring.

 

This is from the patch changelist:

 

Ah, I didn't see that. Still, It's mainly that ridiculous shield drainer weapon that I was annoyed about - As far as I can tell *no* other ship in EaW has an ability that even approaches the sheer usefulness of that. Except for maybe the Eclipse, and that's one of a kind.

[Valter]

The problem is, it may be a huge advantage in your opinion but it doesn't translate into specific advantages in the context of the space battles. Raw speed never wins anything - Especially considering the ranges of of some of the Imperial units (like ISDs and Broadsides). The MC30 also happens to have the worst defences in the game, but I agree - that particular ship is meant for hit'n'run, but not the whole fleet. The Assault Frigate may be faster than the Victory but it isn't fast *enough* to make much of a difference in the long run - The boost shields ability is far more useful to reinforce a capital ship under fire rather than refresh the shields after an attack.

 

Not every ship in the rebel fleet is made for hit and run, but a good majority can make use of this tactic. There are many ways to win with the rebellion. Support the Mon Cal's with ion cannon blasts from y-wings, destroy the hangar bays with MC-30's, bait the enemy into asteroid fields etc...

 

I understand speed isn't everything but it sure does help when things start to heat up in a battle.

 

The rebels are still restricted by population caps so they can't bring in more stuff to replace the other ships that are currently running rather than hitting, which translates into massive holes in their defense.

 

Hmmm... I didn't think about that.

 

Bottom line is, a large number of the rebel ships are meant for hit and run but the entire fleet isn't. There just don't have the stats to work in that role.

And none of this is a good enough resaon to leave the Mon Cal behind.

 

That's why I suggest increasing the Mon Cal's rate of fire or increasing the shield refresh rate to compensate for the Mon Cal's lack of speed.

[darthcarth]

Or make it faster but you have to think the imperials pay 5k for thier ship and the rebels pay 4k for thiers you cant expect that they would be equal, and the person who said mon cals should have to more ion canons or turbos that would put them at odds with the K word ship and would leave the imperials far far behind.

[Rust_Lord]

What about increasing the speed and turn rate of the Mon Calamari Cruisers instead of improving their weapons? As long as they can stay in the blind spot behind an ISD, it doesn't really matter how many guns they have...and that would be more in keeping with both the idea of the canon and balancing each side with relative advantages and disadvantages.

 

Quite a lively thread but some of this stuff has been done to death. Valter has a point regarding the rebs strategy and Wedge your 100% right with the above point, however, the MC already has the maneuverability (and a *slight* speed advantage) to get into an ISDs blind spot. Long ago I posted a test I did between the two. Nothing has changed. All an MC has to do is, like in the movies, get in close and you will out turn the ISD. This is why it is configured the way it is. You play into the ISDs hands if you sit back and slug it out. The argument that because the ISD now has slightly more HPs and firepower than an MC, the MC needs to be buffed is ridiculous. That will again make it better than the ISD which is not the way it should be, afterall, whether youre talking skirmish or GC an ISD is more expensive than an MC; with extra 700 credits in skirmish you could buy yourself a squadron of B-wings and with that you can knock out the ISDs hanger bay, a TL, engine, take your pick. Sure they will get cut down eventually by interceptors but the ISD will be destroyed.

 

If you want to add 2 TLs and 2 Ions to a MC expect to see the price increase by 1000. In canon the ISD has 60 TL and 60 Ion whereas the MC has 48 TL and 20 Ion...big difference, but until this patch comes into effect the MC actually has a firepower advantage. As stated in a previous post the ISD will have a very slight advantage now.

 

Just because the rebs didnt receive a whole heap of new stuff in space doesnt mean they got nerfed. This just shows they were already good and didnt need mass change. Both original factions just look pale because the ZC is so unbalanced and THAT is the main issue. I wrote before the Keldabe is getting nerfed, but thanks for the reference Wedge. I adjusted my xml and fought against it and dropping its ions and mass drivers makes a huge difference. It is still a behemoth that monsters MCs and ISDs but we stand a chance against them now. Still; two Keldabes will drain the shields of a lvl 5 station, something that would take some time for massed capital ships to achieve and as a result there should be a limit on these ships, a reduced effect of their special or an increase in cost.

 

I expected the ZC to be over powered as a marketing ploy so people will hear of this new uber faction and rush out and buy the game, then when people are annoyed with them a patch would simply fix that; however, the amount of bugs and the degree to which the ZC is overpowered could not be intentional. Has anyone noticed that the ZC get an extra cap ship? This I do not understand....have a look..

Ship......................Empire..............Reb...............ZC

Corvette...............Tartan..............Corvette......Crusader

Frigate.................Acclam..............Neb B..........Int IV

Cruiser/Hvy Frig.......VSD.................Ass Frig.......Vengeance

Capital....................ISD................MC..............Keldabe

 

So what equivalent does the Aggressor have? So the ZC dont get a missile corvette, big deal. Wouldnt you prefer an extra capital ship option?

 

And one last thing about starfighters....Everything eats TIEs, Interceptors eat Xwings, Awings eat Interceptors, Star Vipers eat everything (but not as much as they used to)....Phantoms are faster than Awings and Defenders are the toughest fighters in the game but Phantoms are very expensive and fill a limited pop cap. Defenders are also horrendously expensive, fill a pop cap and when they are suppossed to be a fighter, their accuracy is crap.

[TearsOfIsha]

Quite a lively thread but some of this stuff has been done to death. Valter has a point regarding the rebs strategy and Wedge your 100% right with the above point, however, the MC already has the maneuverability (and a *slight* speed advantage) to get into an ISDs blind spot. Long ago I posted a test I did between the two. Nothing has changed. All an MC has to do is, like in the movies, get in close and you will out turn the ISD. This is why it is configured the way it is.

 

The idea of higher maneverability being the strong point of the Mon Cal would work - but only if that higher maneuverability translated into a *specific* advantage. I couldn't give a toss whether the MC can run rings around the ISD when it simply can't kick out the same amount of damage and ends up being mauled. It's pointless. If Maneuverability means that the Mon Cal could kep outside of the ISD's fire then fair enough, I'm all for that, but the ISD's blind spot isn't anywhere near as large as you seem to think. As it is, they do well, no question about that (partially due to the fact that the Boost Shields ability is much more useful than tractor beams).

 

You play into the ISDs hands if you sit back and slug it out. The argument that because the ISD now has slightly more HPs and firepower than an MC, the MC needs to be buffed is ridiculous. That will again make it better than the ISD which is not the way it should be, afterall, whether youre talking skirmish or GC an ISD is more expensive than an MC; with extra 700 credits in skirmish you could buy yourself a squadron of B-wings and with that you can knock out the ISDs hanger bay, a TL, engine, take your pick. Sure they will get cut down eventually by interceptors but the ISD will be destroyed.

 

I'm getting sick of pointing this out - I can't just fill up the extra credits with more bombers because there is something that everyone here seems to be willfully forgetting - it means I have to spend more population on extra units. Accusing rebel players of asking for 'ridiculous buffing' of MCs while you are essentially asking for units that require less population to do more doesn't exactly make you sound like you want balance.

 

And let's not forget something else which is irritatingly vacant from these discussions. ISDs carry sh*tloads of fighters and bombers, whereas the Mon Cal doesn't. The Mon Cal takes up the same population yet cannot accomplish as many tasks as the ISD as it is.

 

If you want to add 2 TLs and 2 Ions to a MC expect to see the price increase by 1000. In canon the ISD has 60 TL and 60 Ion whereas the MC has 48 TL and 20 Ion...big difference, but until this patch comes into effect the MC actually has a firepower advantage. As stated in a previous post the ISD will have a very slight advantage now.

 

An extra 1000 credits would be a price I gladly pay. Credits don't have the same value as they once did with corruption being on the cards - population is far more valuable. Now, while spitting out fighters, the ISD also has an advantage as a cruiser.... for no real reason beyond previous performance. That's why everyone is asking for buffs.

 

Just because the rebs didnt receive a whole heap of new stuff in space doesnt mean they got nerfed. This just shows they were already good and didnt need mass change.

 

Quite correct. Thing is, the Rebels are supposed to have advantages in fighters while the Imperials rely more on cruisers.

 

Now the imperials have not only been given some excellent new fighter designs (which all but nullify any advantage the rebels had there - Imperials now can deploy both elite fighters than can accomplish stuff B-Wings and A-Wings can't *and* can deploy tonnes of cannon fodder *at the same time*) but their also getting upgrades to their cruisers too - so the rebels will literally be weak on both fronts. Yet you claim any cruiser buffs for the Rebels is ridiculous.

 

No it isn't. It's for balance.

 

Both original factions just look pale because the ZC is so unbalanced and THAT is the main issue. I wrote before the Keldabe is getting nerfed, but thanks for the reference Wedge. I adjusted my xml and fought against it and dropping its ions and mass drivers makes a huge difference. It is still a behemoth that monsters MCs and ISDs but we stand a chance against them now. Still; two Keldabes will drain the shields of a lvl 5 station, something that would take some time for massed capital ships to achieve and as a result there should be a limit on these ships, a reduced effect of their special or an increase in cost.

 

To be brutally honest, I don't even understand why the Keldabe is even in the game. It has more firepower than either other capital ship, and has an ability which dwarfs the Boost Shield ability on MCs. It just looks like some 15-year-old mod maker has stuck in the game because they thought it would be uber-r0xx0rss!!!!111.

 

I expected the ZC to be over powered as a marketing ploy so people will hear of this new uber faction and rush out and buy the game, then when people are annoyed with them a patch would simply fix that;

 

Yep. But it sounds like a sure fire way of p*ssing of the existing players of the game - which isn't really a clever idea considering it's an expansion pack. I preferred EaW before FoC came out.

 

however, the amount of bugs and the degree to which the ZC is overpowered could not be intentional. Has anyone noticed that the ZC get an extra cap ship? This I do not understand....have a look..

Ship......................Empire..............Reb...............ZC

Corvette...............Tartan..............Corvette......Crusader

Frigate.................Acclam..............Neb B..........Int IV

Cruiser/Hvy Frig.......VSD.................Ass Frig.......Vengeance

Capital....................ISD................MC..............Keldabe

 

So what equivalent does the Aggressor have? So the ZC dont get a missile corvette, big deal. Wouldnt you prefer an extra capital ship option?

 

This is something I've noticed as well. I really don't understand what Petro were thinking. The argument that they don't have access to a missile cruiser doesn't work either - the ZC can easily just pirate Marauders and Broadsides no bother.