Darth Nihilus: Sith Lord or not?

[Darth InSidious]

He never relinquished the title. He was when he begun his quest to destroy all life. He never left the Dark Side.

 

But does he believe in the ways of the Sith? No.

 

Can he be a lord of the Sith, therefore? No.

[stoffe]

Some random thoughts:

 

Darth Nihilus name is never mentioned in the game in any dialog. The only places you see his name is hovering over his head when you select him, and in item descriptions. Nobody ever calls him Darth Nihilus in the game.

 

Similarly no NPC ever mentions Visas name, not even herself. It's only mentioned a handful of times in player response lines.

 

There does not appear to be a single unified Sith organization at the time of TSL, but rather a number of independent factions formed from the shattered remnants of Revan's sith organization after it collapsed with Malak's death (LS) or Revan's departure (DS). Sion and Nihilus both appear to lead their own faction and are only linked together by a very frail alliance.

 

I think Nihilus was a Sith in name and title only, and would remain so until someone else would have to power to stop him from using the title without ending up a lifeless husk in the attempt. He may have adhered to Sith philosophies earlier, but not any longer in his current state.

[JawaJoey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jediphile

Because Revan was the apparently the first to use the Darth title.

 

Nope.

 

Revan wasn't the first to use the Darth title, he and Malak were the LAST to use their actual names as the other part in Darth BLANK.

 

I voted for SIth Lord in name only. Nihilus is not, by relevant standards a "sith." He is not interested in conquering the galaxy, or his superiors, or even gaining power, really. He is interested in the elimination of everyone everywhere, to satisfy his eating disorder. He's just trying to stay alive, and as Kreia says, he's already dead. He's no sith.

 

But he is certainly a dark side user, and did come from the Sith order. He became a Sith lord, among Kreia and Sion, then Sion and him overthrew Kreia, so he was STILL a Sith lord, then hunger continued to consume him and he went on to still be a powerful dark side master, but he ignored pretty much everything about the Sith.

 

He never lost the title, and he was a master of the Dark side, but in all relevant respects, he was a useless part of the Sith order by the time of KOTOR 2.

[PoiuyWired]

Well, you don't have to help prosper the Soth Order by being a Sith Lord... you only need to take on the mindset of Sith.

 

Nihilus doe take on that mind set of "conquering" the galaxy, though the way he do it and the outcome is a bit different from most. Also, the little bit of retconning in the Legacy series is short but interesting. Yes, you get to see the spirit of Nihilus talking with "Jacen"

[Titanius Anglesmith]

All Sith are slaves to their own power. That's what the dark side is all about, after all. Nihilus just had more power than almost anyone ever. I don't believe that's the issue at all here.

Uh...no. Not all Sith are slaves to their own power. I know that Kreia sure wasn't. Nihilus didn't even have a will of his own. His was just a powerful eating-machine led by his hunger. He could do nothing to stop it, and it would never stop until all life in the galaxy was gone. No other Sith Lords remind me of anything anywhere close to that. Therefore: Nihilus=slave, Other Sith Lords=not. So as I've said before (if you couldn't tell by this post), I believe Nihilus is a Sith Lord in title only.

[The Architect]

No argument there. I do think that the game itself and most of the sources that mention the characters suggest that Nihilus was a sith lord, though.

 

Fair enough. I thought the opposite, but hey, we can't all agree on the same thing can we?

 

She calls him a dark lord, but also dismisses his teachings as being not of the Sith at the same time. However, Nihilus studied those while he was still her own apprentice - apparently she had no such reservations about them at that time. She may dismiss them during the game, but to me that's just the same as Freedon Nadd's spirit declaring Exar Kun a pretender to the Sith legacy only after he failed to control Exar Kun himself (in "Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith #4"). If Kreia declaring Nihilus not a Sith is valid on the basis of her knowledge of the Sith, then Freedon Nadd declaring Exar Kun a pretender only after he rebelled against him seems just as valid to me, and I don't see how that is true. Freedon Nadd was simply crying foul because Kun resisted his ultimate attempt to manipulate him. Kreia does exactly the same. She had no problem teaching Nihilus, but when he rebels against her, then he's suddenly an imposter? She's scarcely in a position to make an objective evaluation...

 

That's a very good point. Still, Kreia shouldn't call Nihilus 'one of the dark lords' because according to her, he was no longer truly a Sith. Those teachings she accuses him of not caring about are hers, so that means he only rejected her teachings, but so what?

 

He hasn't discarded his title, nor has he turned away from the dark side. So I guess you could still call him a Sith Lord.

 

To me the fact that she mentions this in relation to the traditions of the Sith themselves simply seems to infer a relationship between the two.

 

True. Or it could just be a bizarre coincidence that she mentions this in relation to the traditions of the Sith.

 

Certainly. That's why we're having this discussion. I don't see that Nihilus has rejected the Sith, though. He still has plenty of loyal Sith troops around, who still accept him as their dark lord. And he still uses them to hunt down and destroy the jedi, as the Sith have always done.

 

Well, I tend to think that those Sith were just half dead slaves of his that he's slowly devouring. Look at the Sith on the Ravager bridge. What about that weird noise the Sith assassins make when you kill them? They sound like ferrel zombie like creatures IMO. Almost inhuman.

 

It says a lot to me that Kreia is the only one to question his status as a Sith lord. Besides, she's doesn't even come right out and say it. Sion doesn't say it all. Also, the jedi masters are in no doubt that the Sith destroyed Katarr, and we know that Nihilus was behind that.

 

True, but Nihilus became so powerful that he became almost completely inhuman. No character (except maybe Visas) knew what was going on inside of Nihilus' head. We never find out what he says in K2. I wish we knew.

 

But, I guess we never found out because it makes Nihilus even more spooky and mysterious, which is precisely how the devs wanted him to be if you ask me.

 

The question is, can an almost completely inhuman void in the force who wanted do devour all life be considered as a Sith Lord? Maybe. Maybe not. Is their a set criteria that defines a Sith's character? Well, I'm not sure about that either.

 

You'd think there would be though, since isn't a Sith defined through their teachings? Or maybe it doesn't matter how a Sith Lord regards their teachings.

 

What's the moral of the story? We really don't know much about Nihilus.

[Emperor Devon]

That doesn't actually place Andeddu before Revan in the timeline. Indeed, it says nothing about when Andeddu actually lived.

 

You just need to look a little closer.

 

See his clothing? Armor like that was only fashionable (that's a funny thing for a Sith ) during the Great Hyperspace War and back.

 

Name one then.

 

Darth Bandon, as there could be only one Dark Lord in the pre-Bane era.

 

However, I don't see that this means there can be no other Sith.

 

Nope, there can't be any exceptions. Just two Sith. One example of this is how Darth Maul wasn't a Lord as soon as he became Sidious' apprentice - he had to earn the title, and obviously started at a lower one.

 

And he does appear on the list of Sith acolytes and apprentices on Wookieepedia - http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Sith_acolytes_and_apprentices

 

Take a closer look. You'll find Uthar, Jorak Uln, Tavion, and various other characters who shouldn't be on that list are on it. About half the names shouldn't be there.

[Jediphile]

Fair enough. I thought the opposite, but hey, we can't all agree on the same thing can we?

 

Why should we have to? Agreement is overrated anyway. It was bound to happen sooner or later... and probably sooner

 

I'll try not to think less of you for it

 

That's a very good point. Still, Kreia shouldn't call Nihilus 'one of the dark lords' because according to her, he was no longer truly a Sith. Those teachings she accuses him of not caring about are hers, so that means he only rejected her teachings, but so what?

 

He hasn't discarded his title, nor has he turned away from the dark side. So I guess you could still call him a Sith Lord.

 

Precisely. Clearly they have a difference in Sith philosophies, but in itself that doesn't mean Nihilus isn't a Sith lord. As Kreia also says, civil wars are common among the Sith. Between Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh, it was disagreement over how to best rule the ancient Sith Empire...

 

True. Or it could just be a bizarre coincidence that she mentions this in relation to the traditions of the Sith.

 

You could be right. Not saying you definitely are, though

 

Well, I tend to think that those Sith were just half dead slaves of his that he's slowly devouring. Look at the Sith on the Ravager bridge. What about that weird noise the Sith assassins make when you kill them? They sound like ferrel zombie like creatures IMO. Almost inhuman.

 

Never seemed so different from those Sith we see on Peragus or Malachor V to me. YMMV...

 

True, but Nihilus became so powerful that he became almost completely inhuman. No character (except maybe Visas) knew what was going on inside of Nihilus' head. We never find out what he says in K2. I wish we knew.

 

But, I guess we never found out because it makes Nihilus even more spooky and mysterious, which is precisely how the devs wanted him to be if you ask me.

 

Agreed. To me he's like Dracula. If you ever read Stoker's original novel, you never find out who Dracula really is. You learn his name and where he's from, but that's it - his motives or how he became what he became is never revealed. And personally I think he works better that way, because the evil that is unknown is more threatening than the evil you understand. Nihilus is just the same. There are some secrets that should not be unveiled, because they work better if left unmasked. Nihilus is one of them IMHO.

 

The question is, can an almost completely inhuman void in the force who wanted do devour all life be considered as a Sith Lord? Maybe. Maybe not. Is their a set criteria that defines a Sith's character? Well, I'm not sure about that either.

 

You'd think there would be though, since isn't a Sith defined through their teachings? Or maybe it doesn't matter how a Sith Lord regards their teachings.

 

Well, this is precisely why I don't enter into that side of the discussion. It would require that we define what exactly the criteria for a Sith lord is, and I just don't know. I also don't think they really have any beyond power and revenge against the jedi. Palpatine summed it up pretty nicely for us: "Power! Unlimited POWER!!!"

 

You just need to look a little closer.

 

See his clothing? Armor like that was only fashionable (that's a funny thing for a Sith ) during the Great Hyperspace War and back.

 

That's a supposition, not a fact. Some of the ships seen in the first "Tales of the Jedi" comic books (like in the Saga of Nomi Sunrider) look so antiquated, that Naga Sadow's ships from the Great Hyperspace look far more modern. Besides, given how Sith lords have decided to dress over the millennia, I dare say that is not very conclusive. I mean, just look at Malak... And some have said the same for Nihilus...

 

Darth Bandon, as there could be only one Dark Lord in the pre-Bane era.

 

Oh yes, I see. Like There could only be Darth Revan when he and Malak - oh wait...

 

Nope, there can't be any exceptions. Just two Sith. One example of this is how Darth Maul wasn't a Lord as soon as he became Sidious' apprentice - he had to earn the title, and obviously started at a lower one.

 

He would have become a Sith lord when Sidious killed Plagueis and took his place. Unless there is yet another Sith lord in between that we don't know of.

 

Take a closer look. You'll find Uthar, Jorak Uln, Tavion, and various other characters who shouldn't be on that list are on it. About half the names shouldn't be there.

 

They may all be "mere" dark jedi, but clearly they are all associated with the Sith. Being Sith does not mean that you must be a dark lord. Neither Jerec nor Ventress were dark lords, but they were still servants to the dark lords and so associated with the Sith. This is especially true of Ventress during the Clone Wars - take a look at the combatants and tell me which side Ventress was on? Clearly she was on the side of neither the Republic nor the jedi order. The empire didn't exist yet, but it would also be incorrect to say that she was on the side of the confederacy. She aided Dooku, true, but not for the sake of his war on the Republic. What side of the conflict is left? The Sith. And she clearly declares herself one, until Dooku puts her in her place, yet she alone gets to actually meet Sidious, who at this point has no ties to the confederacy (and who is even claimed by Dooku to have betrayed the Trade Federation a decade before). In a holographic form, true, but none of her missions are associated with the direct interests of the Confederacy, only with the plans of Palpatine and Dooku to further the agenda of the Sith. No, she doesn't have the rank of Sith lord, but that doesn't mean she hasn't joined the Sith. Dooku even gave her those nice, red lightsabers.

[Emperor Devon]

That's a supposition, not a fact.

 

Not totally. I've not seen any Sith after the Jedi Civil War who dressed like that. His face also looks more like a Sith's than a human's.

 

I dare say that is not very conclusive. I mean, just look at Malak... And some have said the same for Nihilus...

 

All hail the Dark Lord of spandex.

 

He would have become a Sith lord when Sidious killed Plagueis and took his place. Unless there is yet another Sith lord in between that we don't know of.

 

Both people could be Sith Lords. It's stated numerous times that Vader is one, despite being an apprentice to Sidious.

 

Neither Jerec nor Ventress were dark lords, but they were still servants to the dark lords and so associated with the Sith.

 

The Sith were associated with millions of people. With that logic, stormtroopers and regular grunts would be Sith as well.

 

No, she doesn't have the rank of Sith lord, but that doesn't mean she hasn't joined the Sith. Dooku even gave her those nice, red lightsabers.

 

She could still serve them whether she was a Sith or not. The Rule of Two is obviously self-explanatory, but it says nothing at all about having minions and even apprentices. As long someone isn't dubbed a Sith, they aren't one... technically.

[igyman]

I think Nihilus definitely is a Sith Lord and not because of the Darth title, but because of his power, his appearance and agenda. He is not a classic Sith Lord, that's for sure. He's not just a Dark Jedi who wants to conquer the galaxy, his power is so vast that he has become controlled by it. He is driven by his hunger and his hunger comes from his power, which in turn comes from the Dark Side of the Force.

 

Issue number two, it doesn't really matter whether you say Dark Jedi, or Sith Lord, they are two terms for the same thing. Remember, in the original trilogy the term Sith never existed, it was added later (I'm not sure when, but I first heard the term in Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith video game) and then incorporated into the prequel trilogy.

 

Issue number three, some of you don't like Nihilus because he was easy to beat in the game. I think that is not a justified reason for liking, or disliking a character. I'm disapointed with that fact too, but I still prefer Nihilus to Sion. Why? Because Nihilus' character was well imagined, it's not the storymakers' fault that the programmers screwed up when they were making the game and made Nihilus so easy to beat and left out a bunch of background info on him.

[Jediphile]

Not totally. I've not seen any Sith after the Jedi Civil War who dressed like that. His face also looks more like a Sith's than a human's.

 

So what? Lots of Sith Lords look unhuman. By that logic most of the sith lords in Star Wars Legacy should be humans, yet the only who even looks slightly human is Darth Stryfe. The other five clearly aren't human at all, and Darth Krayt's species can't even be determined from what I've seen.

 

She could still serve them whether she was a Sith or not. The Rule of Two is obviously self-explanatory, but it says nothing at all about having minions and even apprentices. As long someone isn't dubbed a Sith, they aren't one... technically.

 

Yes, for a Sith LORD. The term "Sith Lord" comes from "Dark Lord of the Sith". Now, if they are only two, and they are both Sith Lords, then who exactly are they the lords of ?!?

 

Besides, the rule of two doesn't even apply to KotOR - remember Traya, Nihilus AND Sion?

[igyman]

Besides, the rule of two doesn't even apply to KotOR

Yup, Darth Bane instituted the Rule of Two and he was not around in the KoTOR era, he appeared much much later.

 

Besides, the Rule of Two, as I understand it, means that one Sith Lord can only have one apprentice, it doesn't mean that there can't be more than two Dark Jedi at once. It means, IMO, that there can be multiple Sith Lords, but each of them can have only one apprentice. This interpretation of the rule comes from Bane's reproaches toward Darth Krayt in issue 5 of the SW Legacy comics, who has created a Sith Order, which is in organization much like the Jedi Order - one master has multiple apprentices at once, one Sith Lord has multiple underlings etc.

[Emperor Devon]

So what? Lots of Sith Lords look unhuman.

 

Many do look ihuman, but then again, so do most things in Star Wars. That's not much to judge him by.

 

Yes, for a Sith LORD. The term "Sith Lord" comes from "Dark Lord of the Sith".

 

Nope, there can be Sith Lords who aren't Dark Lords. It's like Jedi Masters and being on the Council.

 

Now, if they are only two, and they are both Sith Lords, then who exactly are they the lords of ?!?

 

For most of the time during the Rule of Two, they weren't the lords of anything.

 

Besides, the rule of two doesn't even apply to KotOR - remember Traya, Nihilus AND Sion?

 

Indeed. It only existed from 1,000 BBY until 11 ABY.

[JawaJoey]

Issue number two, it doesn't really matter whether you say Dark Jedi, or Sith Lord, they are two terms for the same thing. Remember, in the original trilogy the term Sith never existed, it was added later (I'm not sure when, but I first heard the term in Jedi Knight: Mysteries of the Sith video game) and then incorporated into the prequel trilogy.

 

Dark Jedi != Sith Lord. Dark Jedi doesn't even equal Sith, (although that's somewhat harder to see in the KOTOR era)

 

I believe you stated it nicely when you said :

 

...one Sith Lord can only have one apprentice, it doesn't mean that there can't be more than two Dark Jedi at once.

 

They're different. The OT EU shows that there were certainly Dark Jedi around, even though they weren't part of the Sith. That's after the rule of two was started, but you still see that in the KOTOR era. Heck, just look at the Exile. Even if the Exile was Dark Side, he/she wasn't a Sith, even though they proved themself to be superior to the three people in the Galaxy who could be considered Sith Lords.

 

Its like how Jolee Bindo wasn't a Jedi. He left the Order entirely, but that didn't make him a Sith or even a Dark Jedi. And Atris assumes that the Exile fell to the Dark Side just for disobeying the Jedi, even though that may not be true.

 

There are Dark Jedi that aren't Sith, there are Sith that aren't true Dark Jedi, there are Sith that aren't Sith Lords. Sith Lords are Dark Jedi because they're the most powerful. Equating sith, sith lords, and dark jedi is a mistake.

 

Issue number three, some of you don't like Nihilus because he was easy to beat in the game. I think that is not a justified reason for liking, or disliking a character. I'm disapointed with that fact too, but I still prefer Nihilus to Sion. Why? Because Nihilus' character was well imagined, it's not the storymakers' fault that the programmers screwed up when they were making the game and made Nihilus so easy to beat and left out a bunch of background info on him.

 

WOAH there. Do NOT blame the programmers. The writers and the designers are responsible for character development, and it wasn't even mostly their fault. It was the rushed game that pushed it out before programming glitches were fixed or balanced, before content was finished, before characters were completed, before plotlines were fixed or finished. The game was rushed by the publisher, and the game suffered.

Do NOT under ANY circumstances blame the programmers for a flaw that wouldn't have been their fault even if it WERE the developer's fault.

[Jediphile]

Basically there are five kinds of force-users:

 

1. Force-adepts - limited force-sensitives who are neither dark side nor light side.

2. Jedi, who follow the light side and adhere to the code of the Jedi Order.

3. Gray Jedi, who follow the light side, but don't belong to the Jedi Order (e.g., Jolee).

4. Dark Jedi, who embrace the dark side, but are not Sith.

5. Sith, who embrace the dark side and try to gain power among the Sith and become the dark lord.

 

Sith could be called dark jedi by definition, since they all embrace the dark side, but to say so would be redundant, and so dark jedi is more frequently used for a follower of the dark side who does not belong among the Sith. In KotOR1, Juhani was at least briefly a dark jedi, but never a Sith. Still, most dark jedi tend to join the Sith as they are corrupted by the dark side of the Force.

 

Jedi of the Jedi Order constantly fear that Gray Jedi fall to the dark side, since they do not rely on the Jedi Code to guide them and resist the lure of the dark side. That doesn't always happen, though, as can be seen for Jolee Bindo.

[The Architect]

Why should we have to? Agreement is overrated anyway. It was bound to happen sooner or later... and probably sooner

 

I'll try not to think less of you for it

 

Agreed.

 

Oh wait, I'm agreeing with you.

 

Precisely. Clearly they have a difference in Sith philosophies, but in itself that doesn't mean Nihilus isn't a Sith lord. As Kreia also says, civil wars are common among the Sith. Between Naga Sadow and Ludo Kressh, it was disagreement over how to best rule the ancient Sith Empire...

 

Good point.

 

Never seemed so different from those Sith we see on Peragus or Malachor V to me. YMMV...

 

Yeah, they also made that weird ferrel like zombie noise when you killed them too. Or maybe it's just me. What does YMMV stand for? Can't say I'm an expert with abbreviated forum terms.

 

Agreed. To me he's like Dracula. If you ever read Stoker's original novel, you never find out who Dracula really is. You learn his name and where he's from, but that's it - his motives or how he became what he became is never revealed. And personally I think he works better that way, because the evil that is unknown is more threatening than the evil you understand. Nihilus is just the same. There are some secrets that should not be unveiled, because they work better if left unmasked. Nihilus is one of them IMHO.

 

Agreed. I like how Nihilus is mysterious. Add his mysteriousness to that mask of his, and you have one spooky character. I also agree that some secrets should not be dragged into the light, because they work better if left unmasked. Who says that every secret has to be revealed anyway?

 

Well, this is precisely why I don't enter into that side of the discussion. It would require that we define what exactly the criteria for a Sith lord is, and I just don't know. I also don't think they really have any beyond power and revenge against the jedi. Palpatine summed it up pretty nicely for us: "Power! Unlimited POWER!!!"

 

Maybe a Sith Lord doesn't have a set criteria, apart from the acquisition of power, by any means necessary.

[Jediphile]

What does YMMV stand for? Can't say I'm an expert with abbreviated forum terms.

 

"Your mileage may vary". I'm not really an expert on abbreviations either, so I'd advice you bookmark http://www.acronymfinder.com/ - I frequently find it very useful.

 

Agreed. I like how Nihilus is mysterious. Add his mysteriousness to that mask of his, and you have one spooky character. I also agree that some secrets should not be dragged into the light, because they work better if left unmasked. Who says that every secret has to be revealed anyway?

 

Are you kidding me? Try to leave a secret unrevealed, and you have hordes of fans and other folk banging on the door demanding an explanation. Not just that, try breaking out a laughter for no apparent reason with a group of people in the room. They'll demand to know why laugh, and if you don't tell them, they become rabid dogs! Secrets are irresistible to most people... Except me, of course, since I play on it [insert evil laughter here]. Besides, nothing annoys people more than when you show complete ignorance and lack of interest in the secrets they dangle in front of you. I've got the scars to prove these observations too...

 

Of course, for TSL I hear lots of people saying Nihilus is less of an interesting character because his background is not explored. Some complain about all the cut content, too. And yes, lots of content was cut and it is annoying. But the interesting thing is that nothing about Nihilus' background seems to have been cut - at least I've never been able to find any cut stuff about his origin or powers or whatever in the game files. I think he was always meant to be kept mysterious, unrevealed, inexplicable and distant. It makes Nihilus more of an evil force of nature in the game than he would be, if we learned his background and motivations. I've always hated Coppola's Dracula movie (with Gary Oldman and Anthony Hopkins) for the same reason - you're not supposed to understand Dracula. He's not meant to be some misunderstood, love-turned-evil misfit. I don't want to feel sorry for Dracula! I want to fear him! And you fear nothing so much as the unknown. Stoker knew that, but Coppola and James V. Hart (who wrote the script for that bloody flick) sadly didn't. Thankfully Chris Avellone seems to.

 

Maybe a Sith Lord doesn't have a set criteria, apart from the acquisition of power, by any means necessary.

 

That and revenge against the jedi are the only criteria I know of. I do not claim to be an expert on Sith rules and traditions, though.

[igyman]

Dark Jedi != Sith Lord. Dark Jedi doesn't even equal Sith, (although that's somewhat harder to see in the KOTOR era)

 

I'm talking about the terms themselves and as I said, what we now regularly call Sith Lords were originally simply called Dark Jedi, the terms Sith and Sith Lord were introduced later. Instead of retelling the whole story, I'm simply going to provide two links, one regarding to the name Sith and the other to the term Sith Lord.

Sith

Dark Lord of the Sith (Sith Lord)

 

I believe you stated it nicely when you said :

...one Sith Lord can only have one apprentice, it doesn't mean that there can't be more than two Dark Jedi at once.

 

Ah, but remember what I said in the next sentence of that post:

It means, IMO, that there can be multiple Sith Lords, but each of them can have only one apprentice.

 

WOAH there. Do NOT blame the programmers. The writers and the designers are responsible for character development, and it wasn't even mostly their fault. It was the rushed game that pushed it out before programming glitches were fixed or balanced, before content was finished, before characters were completed, before plotlines were fixed or finished. The game was rushed by the publisher, and the game suffered.

Do NOT under ANY circumstances blame the programmers for a flaw that wouldn't have been their fault even if it WERE the developer's fault.

 

But it was their fault. The storywriters did their job - they wrote the story, developed the characters and the universe in which the story occured. It was the programmers' job and responsibility to implement that story properly into the game. The game was rushed, yes, but the programmers (developers, or whatever you like to call them) knew the deadline. It was still their responsibility and their job to implement the story as best as they could into the game. They failed, which resulted in cut content and story gaps.

It all comes down to what was whose job. The storywriters completed the job they were paid to do, the programmers didn't. End of story (and I mean it, I don't want this thread to turn into another ''Who's to blame for the TSL cut content'' thread).

[Jediphile]

But it was their fault. The storywriters did their job - they wrote the story, developed the characters and the universe in which the story occured. It was the programmers' job and responsibility to implement that story properly into the game. The game was rushed, yes, but the programmers (developers, or whatever you like to call them) knew the deadline. It was still their responsibility and their job to implement the story as best as they could into the game. They failed, which resulted in cut content and story gaps.

It all comes down to what was whose job. The storywriters completed the job they were paid to do, the programmers didn't. End of story (and I mean it, I don't want this thread to turn into another ''Who's to blame for the TSL cut content'' thread).

 

I agree with you that it's not the storywriters' fault, but we have to be fair. Obsidian wrote the entire game in less than a year, it was going well, and then Lucasarts cut two months of the deadline. Originally the pc version was to come out in febuary, while the xbox version should be out in december. But suddenly Lucasarts pushed the schedule and demanded that both versions were out in december. That they were able to bring out a playable game at all is a remarkable achievement in itself, given that two months were cut from the schedule about half way through. Obsidan is indeed a talented group of developers with lots of experience, but while the people are experienced, the company itself is not - TSL was their first game. Not that this invalidates their experience, but it does mean that Obsidan, as a company, does not have any weight in the business yet, because they have no credit to their name. That means that if Lucasarts, the publisher - a big company in the business - dictates something, then a new, young company has no recourse but to comply, particularly when the IP is owned by the publisher. Obsidian even wanted to do a content patch that resolved some of the issues, but Lucasarts turned it down. If you want to blame someone, then you should at least read GameSpy's Resident Cynic's article on this matter before you decide who to blame. You can read it here:

 

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/588/588057p1.html

[igyman]

One of the subjects I'm studying this semester at college is called ''management'' and, though I still have a lot to learn, when it comes to these kinds of issues the answer is pretty simple - the person, or persons responsible for a product's failure are the ones who didn't do their job properly. This is what my opinion is based on. While I can agree with some things said in the article you provided, it is still a more fan-based opinion than it is objective. When you look at it pretty objectively, it's exactly as I presented it:

- The storywriters' job was to write a good story, create interesting and complex characters and provide a detailed unverse for them to exist in. They did their job.

- The programmers' job was to make the game, which, among other things, means that it's their job to implement the story provided by the writers into the game. LucasArts rushed the game, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that those programmers had a job to do and that they didn't do it properly. They knew their new deadline and they knew what their job was, but they didn't do it properly.

 

The article you provided says also that LucasArts underwent a management change: this is no doubt a consequence of bad business decisions made by the previous management (one of them is probably the decision to rush TSL). As you can see Lucas Arts accepted their part of the responsibility and did something to prevent further such mistakes. Obsidian obviously didn't accept their part of the responsibility and didn't try to rectify their error. This will one day, forgive the language, come back and bite them in the ass.

 

With this I'd like to finish this off-topic debate, before the mods get jumpy. Let's just get back to the topic at hand, OK?

[JawaJoey]

But it was their fault. The storywriters did their job - they wrote the story, developed the characters and the universe in which the story occured. It was the programmers' job and responsibility to implement that story properly into the game. The game was rushed, yes, but the programmers (developers, or whatever you like to call them) knew the deadline. It was still their responsibility and their job to implement the story as best as they could into the game. They failed, which resulted in cut content and story gaps.

It all comes down to what was whose job. The storywriters completed the job they were paid to do, the programmers didn't. End of story (and I mean it, I don't want this thread to turn into another ''Who's to blame for the TSL cut content'' thread).

 

 

AHHH!! You're so wrong!!! So very wrong! Don't pretend to have an understanding of how the game industry works, when you clearly don't. By the way, "developer" refers to the company and the people who made the game, that's Obsidian, the programmers, the writes, the level designers, etc. "Publisher" is Lucasarts, the ones who usually own the IP, have the money, get the money, physically produce and distribute the game.

 

I can just as easily say that its the storywriter's fault, because it took too long for them to write the story, so they didn't give the programmers enough time. But that's not how the process works!

 

In a relay race, if you lose, is it the last person's fault? They had a job to do, and knew exactly what they needed to do to win the race for the team. But since they didn't do it, you can blame them, right?

 

If I tell you to build a bridge across the Mississippi river by next Thursday, you know the deadline. Does that mean its your fault if you don't do it fast enough? Even if you're an expert bridge builder, and I give you the plans? I mean, you had the plans and everything, and you knew when you had to finish by. So you're responsible. End of story.

 

I'm not saying its the story writers' fault. It's not. The writers did do their job. If there is anyone to blame for which content was cut and which bugs were not fixed, that would be the designers. It was there choice what to cut to meet the sudden deadline. But blaming them for making decisions that were forced on them is wrong. It was the publisher's fault.

 

But you're right, this shouldn't be a "who's fault it was" thread. I won't say anything more on this issue. Except: You're wrong.

[PoiuyWired]

Now lets hope that when kotor3 comes out they would release a TSL GOLD edition with fixed up storylines.

[igyman]

Don't pretend to have an understanding of how the game industry works, when you clearly don't.

First of all, there aren't any special rules that differ the game industry from any other business venture. Second, if you had just taken a few more minutes to read my last post on the matter, you would have seen that I don't pretend to understand it, I'm studying it and I do understand how things work, to a certain degree.

To answer your question, it's not the last person's fault, it's of the person, or persons who didn't do their job properly. I'm not saying it's 100% fair, but that's the way things work in the business world. I won't go into that bridge example you mentioned, because it's an utterly bad example.

Also, if you read my previous post, you'll see that I do agree that a part of the blame lies with the publisher, but the other part lies on the programmers whose job was to implement the story into the game as best as they could, given the deadline. Now, I hope we won't continue this debate further and will get back on topic.

(Don't get all angry about this answer man, I only wrote this because you basically accused me of rambling, when in fact I do have a clue about how things work.)

 

@PoiuyWired: Yeah, that would be nice, but I doubt it'll happen. The closest thing to a complete version of TSL we can hope for is the finished TSL Restoration Project.

[The Architect]

"Your mileage may vary". I'm not really an expert on abbreviations either, so I'd advice you bookmark http://www.acronymfinder.com/ - I frequently find it very useful.

 

Ah, cheers. This should come in handy.

 

Are you kidding me? Try to leave a secret unrevealed, and you have hordes of fans and other folk banging on the door demanding an explanation. Not just that, try breaking out a laughter for no apparent reason with a group of people in the room. They'll demand to know why laugh, and if you don't tell them, they become rabid dogs!

 

 

Or the opposite. I remember when I saw Goldmember at the cinemas with some mates of mine. Their was one scene (where Austin meets the Japanese twins and their names are Fuk You and Fuk Me) where they all laughed at that (and most people in the cinema did), but I didn't. I felt kind of embarrassed. Then later on, they asked why I didn't find that scene funny? Has that ever happened to you?

 

Secrets are irresistible to most people... Except me, of course, since I play on it [insert evil laughter here]. Besides, nothing annoys people more than when you show complete ignorance and lack of interest in the secrets they dangle in front of you. I've got the scars to prove these observations too...

 

And no, I'm not laughing at the fact you have scars. They look cool, but I'm sure if I was given a choice, I wouldn't want one. Are the scars nasty? Care to share any details via PM with me? Or is it one of those things I don't want to know?

 

Hey, it's not as if I show complete ignorance and lack of interest in secrets, it's just that I believe there's nothing wrong with a plot that doesn't reveal all its secrets, whether it be about a particular character or not.

 

Of course, for TSL I hear lots of people saying Nihilus is less of an interesting character because his background is not explored. Some complain about all the cut content, too. And yes, lots of content was cut and it is annoying. But the interesting thing is that nothing about Nihilus' background seems to have been cut - at least I've never been able to find any cut stuff about his origin or powers or whatever in the game files. I think he was always meant to be kept mysterious, unrevealed, inexplicable and distant. It makes Nihilus more of an evil force of nature in the game than he would be, if we learned his background and motivations. I've always hated Coppola's Dracula movie (with Gary Oldman and Anthony Hopkins) for the same reason - you're not supposed to understand Dracula. He's not meant to be some misunderstood, love-turned-evil misfit. I don't want to feel sorry for Dracula! I want to fear him! And you fear nothing so much as the unknown. Stoker knew that, but Coppola and James V. Hart (who wrote the script for that bloody flick) sadly didn't. Thankfully Chris Avellone seems to.

 

I'm glad you understand that, otherwise the alternative would have been a .

 

That and revenge against the jedi are the only criteria I know of. I do not claim to be an expert on Sith rules and traditions, though.

 

Yeah, and that too. I knew that, I was just testing you. Don't believe me? Well ah, you should, because otherwise I might you. You don't want that, do you? Just for the record, I can't be stuffed looking for other lols, that's why I use the same one all the time.

 

I'm no expert on the Sith either. Why should I be? They suck. Hey, I found a new one.

[cards227]

If he was developed more, I believe he would have been the darkest sith lord and most frightening ever.