Server and mod commentary

[razorace]

From what I've been reading, the issues seem to come down to problems with certain skill combinations being "too powerful" vs an actual problem with cross skill taking. Namely, I've seen...

1. Jetpack + Jump 3

If I'm not mistaken, FP doesn't regen while in midair. As such, a gunner isn't going to be able to regen their Jump without being on the ground without running for some period of time.

2. Gunner + Lightning 3

Lightning 3 is VERY expensive, it's literally the most expensive skill with a total cost of 24, which is more than a player even starts with. In addition, I suspect that the main issue for some people is that lightning is currently an instant knockdown skill, which when comboed with a gun allows players to shot their victims dead on the ground. If that's the case, we could probably a nature level of knockdown protection to lightning based on the player's DP or maybe FP level. I'm open to suggestions.

[Maxstate]

From what I've been reading, the issues seem to come down to problems with certain skill combinations being "too powerful" vs an actual problem with cross skill taking. Namely, I've seen...

1. Jetpack + Jump 3

If I'm not mistaken, FP doesn't regen while in midair. As such, a gunner isn't going to be able to regen their Jump without being on the ground without running for some period of time.

They can fly somewhere safe away from a jedi, meditate and regain everything, then fly away again untill they aren't full.

Plus, there's no better evading maneuver than the backflip.

 

2. Gunner + Lightning 3

Lightning 3 is VERY expensive, it's literally the most expensive skill with a total cost of 24, which is more than a player even starts with. In addition, I suspect that the main issue for some people is that lightning is currently an instant knockdown skill, which when comboed with a gun allows players to shot their victims dead on the ground. If that's the case, we could probably a nature level of knockdown protection to lightning based on the player's DP or maybe FP level. I'm open to suggestions.

Gunner + lightning isn't just wrong because it's overpowered, it's wrong on so many other levels. Like realism, balance, fun factor, movie realism and much more. Bah I don't want to explain anymore.

[Lathain Valtiel]

Sigh... how boring. But nevertheless...

 

Max:

 

1: You said:

 

Do you guys even KNOW what a seasoned gunner does when a jedi comes close? He just whips out his saber and defends against the Jedi's slashes, flies away and just whips out his rocket launcher again and starts shooting..

 

And that is wrong simply because it is a generalization rigged in your favor. In fact it would be stupid and a waste of points in the current climate when instead the gunner could instead do what I do, namely dance away from your strikes and combination seeker droid+bowcaster+charbroil(+ optional sentry gun) you to death. Jawa Bond's strategy of raining death from above with his jetpack blaster rifle, bowcaster, and rocket launcher is also effective (and easily counterable from the start because by his own admission he does not use absorb). Do not lump gun users into one category.

 

2: Congratulations on finally making a legitimate point. Being able to use Jump 3 in combination with the Jetpack to render fuel concerns moot is rightly insane (despite the 24 minimum point cost), something needs to be nerfed here. I would recommend halting Jetpack fuel restoration while jumping is being done.

 

Kindly explain the fatigue threshold for me if you would, because restricting Jedi movement is not something that should be done lightly.

 

3: Well, that's what happens when you choose to operate in a mode called "FREE FOR ALL". You will excuse some of us for taking the name literally. We've had this discussion before.

 

Lastly, anyone who waits more than a few seconds for your duel to end is crazy (he could be off gaining more points), but for his dedication he SHOULD be able to blast you after you're done.

 

Honestly, here you're asking for your cake and wanting to eat it too. You can't reasonably call for movie realism when in fact it would be realistic for somebody with a heavy weapon to be able to joltingly disrupt your lightsaber battle. Such battles require intense concentration, and indeed in such situations an outside force has an advantage if he chooses to intervene. It's unfortunate, BUT IT IS REALISTIC. Your recourse is the saber challenge. If you want, why don't you simply ask Razor to remove the Force Power restrictions on it? Why WOULDN'T he do it?

 

4: The benefit is entirely in your hands by how you choose to spend your points.

 

Almost all of what you listed is HORRIFICALLY EXPENSIVE, thermals, rocket launchers, detpacks among them. A sentry droid isn't hard to use as far as I can tell. The other two may simply require point adjustment.

 

Actually, a level of Force Lightning requires a mighty 8 points, quite respectable, and ditching the pack nets you exactly one more level at two. But a Jedi CAN counter that: Force Absorb, Force Push, Force Pull (bye bowcaster!), or even his own Force Lightning (he can't fire when knocked down)... I like the idea that activating it results in Lightning damaging whoever used it myself...

 

However, I do think that Saber abilities are a bit too expensive and recommend lowering all of their costs to 3.

 

5: It already does this by making big guns significantly more expensive than Neutral and Light Force counterparts, namely Lightning and Grip. Fully mastering the Rocket Launcher costs exactly the same now as fully mastering the saber, for example.

 

What you're asking for is a difficult feat of coding from what I can tell. The closest thing to it is Promod, in which daring to take a certain level of gun skill, of ANY gun skill, started locking out any and all ability to gain higher levels of all Force. But that's child's play compared to what you want. The logistics of it would be annoying as sin.

 

6: They sacrifice points that could've been used for other powers. Seems simple enough.

 

7: The point here is that Kyle DID have it all. So really, this line of argument is not helping you.

 

----

 

It seems obvious to me that a big wan with you guys is the ability to use Lightning in conjunction with heavy weaponry. In that case, we could simply suppress Lightning's use when those weapons are out. *Shrug*

[Maxstate]

Sigh... how boring. But nevertheless...

 

Max:

 

1: You said:

 

 

 

And that is wrong simply because it is a generalization rigged in your favor. In fact it would be stupid and a waste of points in the current climate when instead the gunner could instead do what I do, namely dance away from your strikes and combination seeker droid+bowcaster+charbroil(+ optional sentry gun) you to death. Jawa Bond's strategy of raining death from above with his jetpack blaster rifle, bowcaster, and rocket launcher is also effective (and easily counterable from the start because by his own admission he does not use absorb). Do not lump gun users into one category.

1: How is this in any case relevant? I'm talking from experience with playing with people on the Euro server. I've seen all kinds of exploits and I'm just naming them here, and I'm saying what CAN and WILL happen once people figure this out.

 

2: Congratulations on finally making a legitimate point. Being able to use Jump 3 in combination with the Jetpack to render fuel concerns moot is rightly insane (despite the 24 minimum point cost), something needs to be nerfed here. I would recommend halting Jetpack fuel restoration while jumping is being done.

2: Yeah thanks, I'm keeping my congratulations card in my pocket still untill you can do the same thing. And how about they just don't get access to jump 3, and get Jump 2 instead? Leave the high level force powers to the Jedi who deserve them.

Kindly explain the fatigue threshold for me if you would, because restricting Jedi movement is not something that should be done lightly.

Once a Jedi's FP reaches 10 or below it you start moving and attacking really slowly to simulate fatigue. Gunners don't have this problem. They can for example use lightning 3 to 10-15 FP and then finish someone off with a rocket everytime they want to kill someone and have no reprecussions for doing so.

 

3: Well, that's what happens when you choose to operate in a mode called "FREE FOR ALL". You will excuse some of us for taking the name literally. We've had this discussion before.

But then I can take your argument and say that if it's free for all, then Jedi are also free to fight other Jedi and be left alone.

Score-whoring is the last thing I want to see in OJP.

Lastly, anyone who waits more than a few seconds for your duel to end is crazy (he could be off gaining more points), but for his dedication he SHOULD be able to blast you after you're done.

He MIGHT, and COULD, but not SHOULD.

 

Honestly, here you're asking for your cake and wanting to eat it too. You can't reasonably call for movie realism when in fact it would be realistic for somebody with a heavy weapon to be able to joltingly disrupt your lightsaber battle. Such battles require intense concentration, and indeed in such situations an outside force has an advantage if he chooses to intervene. It's unfortunate, BUT IT IS REALISTIC. Your recourse is the saber challenge. If you want, why don't you simply ask Razor to remove the Force Power restrictions on it? Why WOULDN'T he do it?

I'm not a big believer in movie realism and I've never tried to make that point really clear (I kinda lost belief in that when certain things were added). Ace is the one that likes movie-realism but also wants to keep it an FFA inspired mod that has nothing to do with realism or movie realism.

The force restriction is just ONE aspect of dueling mode. Noone wants to have to go into dueling mode just to have a 2 minute undisturbed duel. You want me to take out the dueling card on this? Every time someone in the movies dueled there were no gunners present, or the gunners took a different way or went somewhere else. Think Ep1 when they met Dath Maul in the hanger.

4: The benefit is entirely in your hands by how you choose to spend your points.

No, because if a Jedi wants to STAY a Jedi and nothing else, they are severely limited in power and choice, and that's what bothers me.

 

Almost all of what you listed is HORRIFICALLY EXPENSIVE, thermals, rocket launchers, detpacks among them. A sentry droid isn't hard to use as far as I can tell. The other two may simply require point adjustment.

A thermal or a detpack is 8 points as far as I recall and it drains a Jedi's full DP meter to the point where a pistol is enough to finish him off. That's not expensive.

 

Actually, a level of Force Lightning requires a mighty 8 points, quite respectable, and ditching the pack nets you exactly one more level at two. But a Jedi CAN counter that: Force Absorb, Force Push, Force Pull (bye bowcaster!), or even his own Force Lightning (he can't fire when knocked down)... I like the idea that activating it results in Lightning damaging whoever used it myself...

A JEDI CAN'T COUNTER IT because if he is assaulted by lightning he will still block it and it will still drain his DP! Pull doesn't work that way either anymore.

However, I do think that Saber abilities are a bit too expensive and recommend lowering all of their costs to 3.

LOL what's the use of even having Jedi then?

 

5: It already does this by making big guns significantly more expensive than Neutral and Light Force counterparts, namely Lightning and Grip. Fully mastering the Rocket Launcher costs exactly the same now as fully mastering the saber, for example.

No it doesn't, mastering the rocket launcher costs 8 points. You don't master anything beyond the point you buy it, you just get an extra shot.

 

What you're asking for is a difficult feat of coding from what I can tell. The closest thing to it is Promod, in which daring to take a certain level of gun skill, of ANY gun skill, started locking out any and all ability to gain higher levels of all Force. But that's child's play compared to what you want. The logistics of it would be annoying as sin.

Then try something more simple, I'm not TELLING or limiting anyone to anything, I'm giving out suggestions which is the exact thing that these boards are for.

 

6: They sacrifice points that could've been used for other powers. Seems simple enough.

If they want one, they can have it, but they can't have the other. If they want both, they can have a simple level of both but not high levels of both.

Unless they're in the higher skill ranges.

 

7: The point here is that Kyle DID have it all. So really, this line of argument is not helping you.

No, the point is that Kyle didn't spend time training anything. He just got his powers handed back to him without having to train for anything.

I don't think that's movie realistic or realistic at all, which is what I think (or thought..) Ace was going for.

 

----

It seems obvious to me that a big wan with you guys is the ability to use Lightning in conjunction with heavy weaponry. In that case, we could simply suppress Lightning's use when those weapons are out. *Shrug*

I wouldn't be really content with that, but I guess I don't have any other options seeing as how you all want it this way.

[Sushi_CW]

Eep. Lots of long passionate posts.

 

I have no problem with Jedi and gunners cross-classing. The only problem I have is when certain power/gun combinations become virtually invincible to Jedi. Namely, jetpack + jump 3 + rockets + flame + absorb 3. The Jedi can't use lightning, push, or pull because of absorb, the gunner can always get away with either the jetpack or jump, the gunner can deal damage to the jedi with the flamethrower without any way for the jedi to defend against it except keeping his distance, and if the Jedi is at a distance, the gunner can spam him with rockets.

 

IMO, the biggest problem in that mix is the cheap passive immunity from all varieties of force powers with Absorb 3.

[JRHockney*]

I don't have too much trouble with gunners having lightning 3. Jedi can just use absorb and reverse who gets shocked when they try it for the most part.

 

IMO, the biggest problem in that mix is the cheap passive immunity from all varieties of force powers with Absorb 3

 

yeah that might be a little too much trouble. I've always been a bit nervous about making Absorb passive and this is way. I still think that people holding a gun should only get level 1 protection from whatever forcepower they have or are blocking (which means they have to walk to block force powers they have)

 

We're trying to create a "build your own character form of gameplay here so we need to be careful about what we limit and what we don't. We just need to make sure that all powers, items, and weapons reasonable counters to them and that there are no unbeatable combinations.

 

And lets not get overly passionate about this stuff or this is just going to end up being and unconstructive flame war.

[Lathain Valtiel]

Ugh, no more walking than we already have please. It's slow enough as it is.

[Doctor Shaft]

Alright, after having played around for a while, I'll add my two coppers here. All of htis is based on the settings we have with Meatgrinder. If things are non-issue because experience point rewards would be higher, etc., then disregard what I have to say.

 

Firstly, I think we're getting too caught up in a "Combinations" war. While there are some combinations that are posing problems for us, the issue is not the combination itself so much as the powers and weapons at hand.

 

I think the biggest issue that we have to resolve for this current version is three fold: Force Power variety, countering abilities, and Ability Costs.

 

Force Power variety is first. Simply put, we're sorely needing it. We've regressed to a system that involves too much on Jedi using knockdowns to get hits with the lightsaber. I'm all for knockdowns being used constantly, but it's currently ALL we have. As far as I'm concerned, why waste points on lightning when I can do just as well with some level of push and pull? Jedi are currently one trick ponies in the Force department. We need variety, badly. I know we're still sorting out what powers there should be available, and a lot of hte ideas I provided were outlandish in terms of implementing and using. But I've seen some nice, simple ideas lately. We need to get around to implementing them, and giving Jedi something more than "Knockdown/slash". It's great... but it's not good enough.

 

 

The next issue we have is with countering abilities. This is closely related with ability costs. Currently, the cost to get access to certain abilities, in order to counter other abilities, is a bit skewed. If I want to counter a rocket launcher, I need access to Force Push, or Pull. Or I need a jetpack to keep safe. Something. On a low experience point server, this becomes a problem. I don't get easy access. Countering being knocked down requires at least a level of Force Jump. Again... with other essentials, like having a lightsaber, that is a bit expensive and slow to get to.

 

In a higher point game, I'd still say that the cost to counter abilities is either too high, or too rigid. Want to counter lightning? You MUST build yourself in a certain manner. Want to avoid rockets? Must have certain abilities ready. I don't mind that this is so, but I think we need to tweak costs a bit to reflect this.

 

Lightning gets cursed because the methods of countering it require to stringent a set of abilities. Costs need to be adjusted. Perhaps lightning needs to cost a great deal more. I'm not sure.

 

 

Costs and variety are our two biggest problems, as far as I can tell. That's what we should be focusing on next, outside of tweaking saber combat (I'll post in that other thread... JR Hockney is on to something as far as I'm concerned).

 

We currently have a system that involves this:

 

-Saber combat

-Abilities that knock you down

-Abilities that let you fly

-One ability to negate force powers

 

Other powers are currently suspect or non-issue. Sense... eh. Speed... eh. Grip... I'm still trying to figure out what it's purpose is. I'm trying to be creative... but it's not really working.

 

So that's it. I don't think it's really the combinations that are the problem, as much as it is how much things cost, and what variety is available. In a game where knockdowns are predominant, then of course we're going to see some combinations that are irksome because they take advantage of delivering knockdowns and countering them all at the same time.

 

If Jedi had access to different abilities, then they may not be as frustrated with Gunners that have "Push" abilities or other mobility. If we focus on powers that aren't necessarily beneficial to getting range and firing guns, then Jedi wouldn't be so pressed in the "trying to be pure" department.

 

Otherwise, the game seems fine to me. Being a Jedi requires craftiness, which is what I like. I don't want to get special bonuses for not using guns. I do, however, want costs to be adjusted so that if I don't spend points on guns, I can still afford a combination of abilities that is unique enough to allow me to get around.

 

Gunners are at a good power level right now. They can kill quickly. The blaster is non-existent, but that bowcaster is awesome. The rocket launcher is irksome at times, and I wonder sometimes if the splash damage is affecting the shooter as much as it's affecting everyone else. The flamethrower is a cool weapon, and I think it's been implemented nicely. Gunners don't need to be nerfed.

 

Jedi, on the other hand, do not need a power boost either. They simply need a small adjustment on some costs, along with variety. Variety simply meaning abilities other than "Push that guy to the ground" or rather, abilities that have an affect on the battlefield that goes beyond point and shoot. The weakness here is that using a sword and having a push ability is great, but we need powers to augment our sword, since that's our killing tool.

 

Heal, Protect, Mind Trick, Rage, Drain, Sense, and Speed need to do something here. Speed going fast isn't really helping right now. Sense is... a wall hack that sees little use outside of that. WE have five other things. We really need to pull together and focus on that list of powers. And start trying stuff out.

 

Just like gunners needed some gadgets... Jedi need gadgets right now. Not a power boost. Not restricted access. Gadgets.

[Lathain Valtiel]

Speed could be useful to cut down gunners that don't use Jetpack. I've been offed by guys using it rather consistently, about 50% of the time.

 

Grip IS basically freaking useless though.

 

I have an idea.

 

How about we have Lv. 2 and 3 of Sense be counted as a sort of 'minor precognition' passive ability, allowing the Jedi to expend less DP to avoid attacks than normal, namely by a percentage? For Lv. 2, 5% reduction in DP costs, and for Lv. 3, 10% reduction.

 

We also need to see the return of Mind Trick, as a weighed power of course. Lv. 1 Sense only counters up to Lv. 1 Mind Trick and so on. It would also be AWESOME if it could be made so that if you Mind Trick somebody, attack, and successfully hit, it counts as a 'surprise attack' that costs more DP to evade.

[JRHockney*]

Speed could be useful to cut down gunners that don't use Jetpack. I've been offed by guys using it rather consistently, about 50% of the time.

 

Grip IS basically freaking useless though.

 

I have an idea.

 

How about we have Lv. 2 and 3 of Sense be counted as a sort of 'minor precognition' passive ability, allowing the Jedi to expend less DP to avoid attacks than normal, namely by a percentage? For Lv. 2, 5% reduction in DP costs, and for Lv. 3, 10% reduction.

 

We also need to see the return of Mind Trick, as a weighed power of course. Lv. 1 Sense only counters up to Lv. 1 Mind Trick and so on. It would also be AWESOME if it could be made so that if you Mind Trick somebody, attack, and successfully hit, it counts as a 'surprise attack' that costs more DP to evade.

 

I kind of like these ideas. Especialy that mind trick one. I want to see that back in.

[Lathain Valtiel]

For the Mind Trick idea, I was also thinking you could give a special advantage with the saber due to melee requirements.

 

IE, if you Lv. 3 Mind Trick somebody and hit them with a lightsaber at Lv. 3 Saber Attack, they should be one of two things: dead or out of DP.

 

Here's the idea: You surprise hit at Lv. 2 Mind Trick, your attack costs 50% more DP to evade than normal. For Lv. 3, up that to 100% more DP, doubling it.

 

This applies unless you use your saber. Then those values are double to a cost of 3x the DP and 4x the DP. I'd hope that 4x DP is basically, if not instant death, close to it. It should be instant death to any gunner who gets caught probably.

[razorace]

It's an interesting idea but I don't see a counter for gunners. People could just use it all the time without penalty.

[Lathain Valtiel]

A relatively high FP cost should negate that, besides, guns already get a lower bonus. Besides, do you have a better idea? There needs to be more Force Powers. You can't really compensate much for the nature of a long range weapon without intentionally nerfing them. There's a reason so few people fight with swords anymore.

 

Honestly, there should not be some inane 'gunner vs. Jedi' debate, because such a side is imaginary, seeing as how there isn't a restriction except on what you buy.

[Maxstate]

A relatively high FP cost should negate that, besides, guns already get a lower bonus. Besides, do you have a better idea? There needs to be more Force Powers. You can't really compensate much for the nature of a long range weapon without intentionally nerfing them. There's a reason so few people fight with swords anymore.

 

Honestly, there should not be some inane 'gunner vs. Jedi' debate, because such a side is imaginary, seeing as how there isn't a restriction except on what you buy.

 

This is your opinion, ofcourse.

 

Then there's people like me who would like to give equal opportunities to all builds and not just the ones that buy everything.

[JRHockney*]

It's an interesting idea but I don't see a counter for gunners. People could just use it all the time without penalty.

 

Well, the high FP cost would be one thing, and gunners could just use seeing right? Hmm. or if they dont like force powers, maybe a radar!

[razorace]

I don't know. It just seems too unrealistic and abusable.

 

I mean, I can completely understand that Jedi probably have some ability to sneak thru the use of mind tricks. However, I'm not sure that can translate to full visibility in a combat situation.

[JRHockney*]

I don't know. It just seems too unrealistic and abusable.

 

I mean, I can completely understand that Jedi probably have some ability to sneak thru the use of mind tricks. However, I'm not sure that can translate to full visibility in a combat situation.

 

It will be fine. Jedi can't use their saber to block anything while in mind trick so gunners can shoot or flame in random directions and probably hit them if they see them do a mind trick. Gunners use rocket on jedi from behind all the ime and end up racking up alot of kills, so this might help even things up a bit. Besides, this is Laths idea, and he's a straight gunner. If he thinks it will be balanced, it will probably be balanced.

 

I do have a possible, seemily more movie realistic idea for this though. If the gunner looks directly at the jedi (meaning the jedi's in the crosshares), they become visable. for this it might be better for the gunner not to hear the footsteps either.

[UDM]

I think Lath's idea is good, but I'm not so sure about the "look straight through crosshair and invisible jedi becomes visible" thing. Too complicated, and players will scream for Mind Trick to be improved upon

[Lathain Valtiel]

Er... yeah, the answer here is Seeing. If you want to be immune, buy it and keep it on. Really that's all you need. Also, you just can't SEE them. It should be possible to hear their footsteps or the hum of their saber.

 

I mean if they walk in the Hangar Room of Tatoonie FFA, they should leave footprints, etc etc.

[Lathain Valtiel]

Okay, CLEARLY, CLEARLY the Jetpack is way, way too good. Observe the following points:

 

1: It provides over four seconds of constant airtime.

 

2: It is powered by flamer fuel, which regenerates at a decent clip (as it should but still, wait)

 

3: It costs 8 points.

 

4: Stays on if you're knocked down while using it, lifting you to relative safety.

 

Compare this to Lv. 3 Jump:

 

1: To acquire Lv. 3, spend a total of 16 points.

 

2: Provides about two seconds of airtime, and not even very high airtime.

 

3: Takes up far more precious Force Points.

 

Inevitable and Undisputable Conclusion: Jetpack is vastly overpowered. It should not let you fly around that long.

 

Recommendation: Double (if not more) the fuel consumption rate.

 

----

 

Further... the Seeker Droid stinks. Why?

 

1: Only inflicts 5-10 damage a shot. If it hits.

 

2: There is an annoying bug with it. If it gets the kill, the caption will say: "killed by Seeker Droid', and the player who summoned it doesn't get the kill.

[razorace]

Maybe we should make it so that getting Pull/Pushed while in the jetpack turns it off unless you take two ranks in jetpack? Along those lines, we could add two ranks to jetpack, which would affect fuel useage and the effect of push/pull/lightning on those users.

 

-----

 

Add ticket for the kill issue, and we'll look into it.

[Lathain Valtiel]

Then what happens if you pack Absorb? Or your attack gets autopushed?

 

You should definitely raise fuel consumption anyway IMO. It's just too much. Being able to hang on the cieling for several seconds is bleh.

[razorace]

If you packed absorb, then you've spent a lot of points on absorb.

[Lathain Valtiel]

Heh.

 

I'm hoping Absorb remains passive, just toned down some.

 

Also, I added the Seeker ticket, with a little addition:

 

In the inventory it's Seeker DRONE. Everywhere else, it's Droid. May want to rename.

[razorace]

Toned down how? It's pretty simplistic now. Without losing effectiveness, the only thing I could probably do would be to increase the point cost.