Why did the Mandalorians declared war?? [spoiler]

[Grey Master]

Any body else got anything else to say?, (thank you Fuu for the comments)

I'm sticking to my opinion that Kreia had planted the idea of war in the mandalorian's mind, and orchestrated events like papatine did to convert the Jedi, until I'm proven wrong.

[Sabretooth]

From what I know, here's the story:

 

The Sith, at the time of Ulic Qel-Droma weren't actually consolidated. Ulic was part of a group called The Krath, while his Master Exar Kun was rallying supporters from the Jedi. Ulic encountered the Mandalorians as a warrior race, whose life was based on and around warfare. They were loyal, and after accepting a proposal from the then Mandalore, Ulic dueled him. Ulic won, and made accepted the clans of Mandalore under his wing, making the Mandalorians subsidiaries of the "Sith". They then fought under the unified strength of Ulic and Kun, till they lost their war.

 

After that, they remained mostly in hiding, from what I know, till they reunited and decided to regain their glory and honour (which is the essence of Mandalorian life), by attacking the weakened Republic.

[Fuu]

Thanks for the interjection Sabretooth. However, I was under the impression that the Quel Dromas lived well before the Mandalorian Wars. Exar Kun lived about 4k years before the start of the wars, and if Ulic was his pupil then theres no way he could have started the wars. Machiavelli (the most informative person about EU IMO) said this:

According to what I have been able to ascertain Except for the fact that Exar Kun fought against the Republic (The writers of the game got it wrong, try 4,000 years earlier, not 1000) that he made his last stand on Yavin 4, and that he killed off a race called the Massassi doing it, there is not one thing I have been able to find.

<snip>

Can you give a link or suggestion that will lead me to the info you provided? It would be nice to have more refrences for this time period.

 

Also, this brings up another question for me. If Ulic took the position of Mandalore and led the <mandalorians> through the war.....doesn't that mean Revan killed Ulic?

[Grey Master]

Highly unlikely Fuu, Mandalore the Ultimate was purely Mando'ade, he became Mandalore when he found the remains of Mandalore the Indomitable, who was killed by Dxun beasts, and took up his mask and became the mandalorians new leader.

(for more information, go to wikipedia.org )

[Balderdash]

From what I know, here's the story:

 

The Sith, at the time of Ulic Qel-Droma weren't actually consolidated. Ulic was part of a group called The Krath, while his Master Exar Kun was rallying supporters from the Jedi. Ulic encountered the Mandalorians as a warrior race, whose life was based on and around warfare. They were loyal, and after accepting a proposal from the then Mandalore, Ulic dueled him. Ulic won, and made accepted the clans of Mandalore under his wing, making the Mandalorians subsidiaries of the "Sith". They then fought under the unified strength of Ulic and Kun, till they lost their war.

 

After that, they remained mostly in hiding, from what I know, till they reunited and decided to regain their glory and honour (which is the essence of Mandalorian life), by attacking the weakened Republic.

I already posted virtually exactly the same thing as you earlier in the thread, just fyi. I know I don't know you, but you obviously have a great mind.

 

@ Fuu: The Sith War was set no more than about 30-35 years before the Mandalorian Wars. One of the characters, Vima Sunrider (who was a young child during the Sith War) was actually supposed to be in KotOR originally. They replaced her with Bastila at the last minute.

 

If you don't believe me, next time you play KotOR (if you play it still) talk to Master Dorak before you complete your training and he'll tell you about the recent galactic history. Jolee also tells you about him and his wife fighting in the Sith War.

 

(for more information, go to wikipedia.org )

Or just buy the Tales of the Jedi comic books.

[Sabretooth]

I already posted virtually exactly the same thing as you earlier in the thread, just fyi. I know I don't know you, but you obviously have a great mind.

 

Lolz, I didn't read the whole thing. Seeing as no one had touched the place in the first few posts, I scrolled all the way down.

[Vaelastraz]

I don't think that Kreia staged the Mandalorian war.... She is not capable of doing that. Palpatine could pull that off becausehe was the most powerful man in the galaxy, he was the leader of both parties, which allowed him to stage the war.

 

Kreia can neither command the Republic nor the Mandalorians.

 

About that exar kun thing:

Dorak states that the war with Kun was 40 years before the present (kotor I). That guy on Yavin said something similar.

[Balderdash]

And the start of the Mandalorian wars was supposedly like 5-10 years before the first KotOR game. So I was about right.

[machievelli]

I have been asked to interject myself as the resident bibliophile. The question before the panel before it descended into a flame war was why did the Mandalorians go to war with the Republic.

 

It has been suggested that Exar Kun began it by recruiting them originally. I cannot agree with that because that war only led incidentally to the Mandalorian Wars. Sort of like saying the War of 1812 here caused the series of wars starting with the Napoleonic war and ending with the Cold War. An argument can be made for the end of the Napoleonic war caused the Franco Prussian War (1870s) and that led to both World Wars, but only by Socratic argument.

 

It has been argued that Kreia convinced the Mandalorians to attack, but as another mentioned above, she was still one of the Jedi Archivists. For a history professor to shove a planet into the equivalent of the First World War would require more chutzpah than even I can envision. Shoving the galaxy into one smacks of deux ex machina beyond even George Lucas' work in creating Vader as the child of prophesy.

 

So what I did was look at the situation 40 years earlier, after the War of Exar Kun. A lot of money has been spent and wasted on a war spanning the Galaxy. Once Kun had died, there was no glue to keep the Sith and Mandalorians together, so the alliance fell apart. The Republic more likely created a negotiated peace like the one that ended WWI rather than a WWII blow them to hell and dictate type, so both defeated parties were left with shattered economies, a lot of trained warriors roaming the streets, and a crushing debt.

 

The Mandalorians, unlike the Republic and Sith could survive this more readily. After all, Like the German States before the Formation of the nation of Germany their stock in trade is warriors, and a few years of sending troops out and collecting their pay, they are back on their feet again.

 

The Sith remind me mainly of a mixture of the old fashioned Communists under Stalin, and the modern day ones of North Korea. It isn't our fault thing are so bad, it's the fault of ((nsert the people you want to blame here) and once we're strong enough to deal with them, you'll get what you need and want.

 

Now hold that thought,

 

At the end of the Second World War, exactly one nation had an atomic bomb. It was big, cumbersome, needed a huge plane to carry it, and,with the advent of jet fighters, one that wouldn't survive very long against Jet fighters. Now look at it from the Soviet tacticians point of view...

 

Do you decide now is the time to march in, impose you're government on the shattered remains of Europe? Are you out of your flipping mind? One wing (72 aircraft) of B 29s can fly to moscow (And all of the later 'Warsaw Pact Countries) and reduce all of them to superheated gas and debris in an afternoon. It can also do the same to every major army you put in the field.

 

Before you ask, a friend of mine created an air to air war game played on the floor and as an addition I personally created, I extended it to jets and nuclear warfare. Assuming you are willing to send the aircraft on one way missions, every target you need to kill is well within range of the B29 (Operational range 6,000 miles, which means 12,000 miles, halfway around the planet from say Alaska). It would cost you every B29 ever built, but once the last crashed, there would be no Russian government.

 

So what you need to do is what the Russians did. Start little wars all over the place, and make the Americans play fireman. China Korea Greece and Italy in 1945-50, Vietnam and a host of outher countries in the years between 1950 and the collapse of the Soviet Giant in 1989.

 

So you have the Sith who still believe their way is the best. They convince the Mandalorians to attack the Republic.

 

Now the Republic in Star Wars reminded me of the differences between a Republican and a Democrat run government. The Modern day Republicans are always willing to keep a strong military; after all, as Robert Heinlien said 'The most expensive waste of money is a second best military' (A Republican attitude) whereas Democrats concentrate on social ills, and who the hell cares if your army is running around with trucks marked 'TANK' in training and cardboard tubes labeled 'MORTAR' when you can spend that money on REAL needs like welfare?You can't pave a street with a howitzer, or create a job program with a battleship, now can you? Of course when that war you never thought would happen does, can you stop an infantry brigade with a street? Or blow an enemy battle ship to hell with a highway?

 

The Mandalorians attacked into the systems that were at that time unaligned. They were not Sith systems, or Republic systems. What would the bigt nasty Republic do?

 

Answer, as Canderous said in the LS version of KOTOR, nothing. They sat back and watched these nations fall. So you push a little harder. You take even more, until half the Rim is in your hands. What do they do?

 

Nothing.

 

This is why we're in a war with Terrorism now people. We allowed terrorists to flourish, and elements of our own flipping population stood there and rationalized why they had the right to do this. You still hear the 'Oh if they could think of anyway to really get their message across' even now when a suicide bomb blows innocents to hell. I am willing to bet that if any person who knows history were to write a story about the Mandalorian Wars it would follow that pattern.

 

I'm sorry for all of those 'bleeding heart liberals'. When I go before my gods to explain my actions, I am not goint to rationalize it. I did what I have done because I thoight it was right, end of effing story.[/1]

 

But standing back and doing nothing emboldens the terrorists. The US stood back for almost fifty years as people were killed world-wide. While car bombs, bombs planted, hihackings etc happened. And we did nothing.

 

So why not attack an American city?

 

Before any of you scream 'but it didn't happen that way' LOOK AT WW II. The world blamed Germany for the entire war. The fact that Germany was the fifth to actually declare war is secondary.

 

The terms of the Versaille treaty could more honestly defined as 'nation rape' is secondary. The Germans started the 3rd decade of the second millennia being blamed for everything that had gone wrong since Jesus was born is a powerful reason to get back at the world. So a charismatic little lunatic named Hitler told them as I said above; It isn't our fault thing are so bad, it's the fault of ((nsert the people you want to blame here) and once we're strong enough to deal with them, you'll get what you need and want.

 

Now look back to the start of WWII, The Germans under Hitler reoccupied the Rhineland in 1935, they annexed Austria in 1937, annexed parts of Czechslovakia in 1937, and finally tripped the alarms and started the wars by annexing the German speaking parts of Poland in 1939.

 

Why did the Mandalorians go to war with the Republic? Because the Republic by it's inaction gave them the belief that he Republic was too weak to resist them

 

Here endith the history lesson.

 

That attitude led to over 70 million dead, 12 million of them literally converted to air pollution.

[Venom750]

Isn't mandalore refering to the true sith out on the outer edges of the galaxy trying to distable the republic for there come back so to speak

[SilentScope001]

Answer, as Canderous said in the LS version of KOTOR, nothing. They sat back and watched these nations fall. So you push a little harder. You take even more, until half the Rim is in your hands. What do they do?

 

Nothing.

 

The historical lessons you promote may cause a flame war...a much larger flame war. Especially with the comment about Russia. But to the point...

 

Why they did nothing?

 

Because if they did attack, the Republic would be weak and can get defeated rather quickly.

 

Suppose Great Britian declared war against Germany in 1936, in order to stop German advances? Britain is not prepared for war...but Germany is. Could it be possible that appeasement allowed for GB to get ready for war by 1940, and thereby caused it to win? Could it be that had Great Britian declared war in 1936...we'd all be speaking German, since Britian would not have the materials needed to win the war...while Germany did? Conisder that.

 

Remember why the Mandalorians were attacking the Republic. They were pawns, to make the Republic weak, so that the True Sith can destroy them. Suppose the Republic attacked first? Suppose the Jedi intervened? What if all the Jedi fell to the DarkSide, or got so weak that the True Sith would be able to win? Remember the Jedi is still recovering from one civil war, why does it need to fight another war?

 

And here lies something interesting. Suppose we do something else...and something far worse occurs? What if the Jedi's actions, by staying out of the war...actually saved the Republic from the True Sith? I mean, let be honest, these people are MANDALORAINS. They will fight each other on a drop of a hat. Could the Jedi want teh Mandalorains to expand, to take over systems...only to have the Mandalorians kill themselves, and make themselves weak for a Republic and Jedi counterattack, thereby causing the Republic to win?

 

The Jedi Master on Onderon (I forgot his name) came up with that brillaint idea of waiting for the True Sith to reveal themselves, but his plan failed because of Revan. He repeated that same plan on Onderon to help out Queen Talia, to lure out Darth Nihlius' forces, and...revealed Nihlius, so he can be smashed.

[machievelli]

The historical lessons you promote may cause a flame war...a much larger flame war. Especially with the comment about Russia. But to the point...

 

Why they did nothing?

 

Because if they did attack, the Republic would be weak and can get defeated rather quickly.

 

Suppose Great Britian declared war against Germany in 1936, in order to stop German advances? Britain is not prepared for war...but Germany is. Could it be possible that appeasement allowed for GB to get ready for war by 1940, and thereby caused it to win? Could it be that had Great Britian declared war in 1936...we'd all be speaking German, since Britian would not have the materials needed to win the war...while Germany did? Conisder that..

 

First, read history before you expund on it. In 1934 when the Germans reoccupied the Rhineland the entire Germany Army was still at the treaty mandate number of 10,000. That is less than a division. The French Army, which would have kicked them out was thirty divisions. Over 30 to one. Rommel (Yeah that Rommel) had orders to withdraw the 1500 men he commanded if the French even attempted serious resistance. But France let them do it.

 

Remember the old saying 'give them an inch and they'll take a mile'?

 

Remember why the Mandalorians were attacking the Republic. They were pawns, to make the Republic weak, so that the True Sith can destroy them. Suppose the Republic attacked first? Suppose the Jedi intervened? What if all the Jedi fell to the DarkSide, or got so weak that the True Sith would be able to win? Remember the Jedi is still recovering from one civil war, why does it need to fight another war?

 

Anyone can think of a reason not to fight another war, even when it was forced. Look at WWII; Hitler reoccupies the Rhineland. Reaction, nothing. He forces an Ancshluss with Austria (By rigging the vote then crossing the border before the government can protest). Reaction, nothing.

 

He then demands that Czechoslovakia give away half of their country because it is traditionally German Soil. The English offer to negotiate. Reaction, The British Prime Minister tells the Germans 'you promise to to push this any farther, and we'll accept your claims'. Reaction in other words, appeasement. And everyone is surprised when Germany invades Poland (As they said they would do) and the war begins. Yet still Russia instead of stomping the Germans flat from their end (Try seventy divisions on the Polish frontier versus 31 German divisions for the Polish invasion) immediately use this opportunity to first 'reclaim' half the country, then murder thousands of Polish government and military personnel (Down to 13 year old cadets).

 

Hitler could have been stopped at any point without a major war, and without a lot of angst if someone had just had the stomach for it.

 

And here lies something interesting. Suppose we do something else...and something far worse occurs? What if the Jedi's actions, by staying out of the war...actually saved the Republic from the True Sith? I mean, let be honest, these people are MANDALORAINS. They will fight each other on a drop of a hat. Could the Jedi want teh Mandalorains to expand, to take over systems...only to have the Mandalorians kill themselves, and make themselves weak for a Republic and Jedi counterattack, thereby causing the Republic to win? .

 

The Republic is a lot like the US government as I pointed out. They would have won as soon as enough competent officers and decent politicians were able to have a say. It might have taken another two decades, but they would have done it. Oh, and BTW, the Sith didn't expect to have the Mandalorians roll over them. It would be like expecting the Nation of Israel to invade the continental United Staes and win.

 

The Jedi Master on Onderon (I forgot his name) came up with that brillaint idea of waiting for the True Sith to reveal themselves, but his plan failed because of Revan. He repeated that same plan on Onderon to help out Queen Talia, to lure out Darth Nihlius' forces, and...revealed Nihlius, so he can be smashed.

 

First, his name is Kavar. Second, I have played the game both dark and light side, and there is nothing suggesting Kavar was in charge of the situation with the Exile. As much as you might think Revan or the Exile were automatically evil, remember that a lot of famous warriors starting with Cincinnatus historically have gone out, fought that nasty bloody war, then turned around, went home, and raised their crops as farmers.

 

Being a warrior is no more evil that being a banker or a politician. Just a lot of rather nasty people gravitate to the job because it gives them a reason to hurt people

 

As for 'brilliant plans' Yamamoto said it best. When his Pearl Harbor plan worked except for one minor detail (Attacking half an hour before the declaration of war was delivered) he said 'All we have done is awaken a sleeping giant, and fill him with a terrible resolve'.

 

However six months earlier, when asked if he could prosecute the war he said 'I can run wild for a year, maybe two,. Then the Americans will roll right over us'.

[Vaelastraz]

 

 

Remember why the Mandalorians were attacking the Republic. They were pawns, to make the Republic weak, so that the True Sith can destroy them. Suppose the Republic attacked first? Suppose the Jedi intervened? What if all the Jedi fell to the DarkSide, or got so weak that the True Sith would be able to win? Remember the Jedi is still recovering from one civil war, why does it need to fight another war?

 

And here lies something interesting. Suppose we do something else...and something far worse occurs? What if the Jedi's actions, by staying out of the war...actually saved the Republic from the True Sith? I mean, let be honest, these people are MANDALORAINS. They will fight each other on a drop of a hat. Could the Jedi want teh Mandalorains to expand, to take over systems...only to have the Mandalorians kill themselves, and make themselves weak for a Republic and Jedi counterattack, thereby causing the Republic to win?

 

The Jedi Master on Onderon (I forgot his name) came up with that brillaint idea of waiting for the True Sith to reveal themselves, but his plan failed because of Revan. He repeated that same plan on Onderon to help out Queen Talia, to lure out Darth Nihlius' forces, and...revealed Nihlius, so he can be smashed.

 

So... first of all, is is speculation that the True Sith pushed the Mandalorians into war.

If it was true, why didn't the True Sith attack the Republic after the Republic barely won?

 

And your other idea would probably not work either. The jedi wanted the Mandalorians to expand, to take over? And then defeat them? Once the republic is defeated the Jedi can't do anything. The Jedi may be a few elite warriors, however you need millions of soldiers and space cruisers to win a war.

Revan didn't win because of his saber skills, but because he was a strategical genius, and I imagine the Jedi who followed him where a boost to the spirits of the common troops.

[machievelli]

...The Jedi may be a few elite warriors, however you need millions of soldiers and space cruisers to win a war.

Revan didn't win because of his saber skills, but because he was a strategical genius, and I imagine the Jedi who followed him where a boost to the spirits of the common troops.

 

That is why I compared the Mandalorians starting the war 12 years before the actual invasion to the 'brushfire wars of the last half of the 20th Century. As long as it wasn't the 'evil empire' actually doing anything, they could claim 'oh it's just freedom fighters'.

 

It's kind of hard to push a people that don't want it into a war, just ask the Kennedy and Johnson Administrations. Kennedy sent in Special Forces and Advisors, sort of like the Jedi being sent in for small ops. But when Kennedy died, Johnson created an incident (The Tonkin Gulf) and used it as an excuse for going from less than 5,000 advisors, to over 20,000 combat troops in less than three months.

 

One minor thing. It is strategic not strategical.

 

All of the arguments used by our opponent boil down two two things:

 

1: The Sith were ready to start fighting again. As you pointed out, they didn't, there was a two year gap between the wars.

 

2: Either Kreia or Revan were already evil and setting up their own little empires long before the Mandalorian wars started. b\But Revan would have started at about 10.

 

Kreia would have been old enough, but Historians tend to take the long view with their subject. War is a short cut, and exceptfor technological advances, you get little from it.

[SilentScope001]

Hitler could have been stopped at any point without a major war, and without a lot of angst if someone had just had the stomach for it.

 

Here, we may get into an argument. I'd disagree. The only way to stop Hitler was to cause World War II, in any of those situations.

 

And if any of these countries caused World War II...Well? The same exact situation, those same civilians and military men, would still die. But Germany wanted war, and the other nations would not.

 

And, no, I disagree with comparing the USSR to True Sith. Real life is different from false life, and here is the difference: Nazis are not contorlled by the USSR. In fact, the Nazis attacked the USSR, and hated the USSR very much so. Prehaps the Mandalorains liked the True Sith and accepted it...at least until Mandalore realized the True Sith used them. Nazis were never used.

 

Yet still Russia instead of stomping the Germans flat from their end (Try seventy divisions on the Polish frontier versus 31 German divisions for the Polish invasion) immediately use this opportunity to first 'reclaim' half the country, then murder thousands of Polish government and military personnel (Down to 13 year old cadets).

 

Secret treay with USSR and National Socialists allowed for the division of Poland into spheres. This treaty was formed primarly out of convince...as well as the USSR wants to rearm and prepare itself...for the real war, the war against the National Socialists. Also, since most western nations hated both Nazis and USSR, they were sort of forced together. Oh, and the USSR wanted to expand their sphere of infulence too (who nation doesn't?).

---

But, let us get off this point. This is what will cause a real flamewar.

 

The Republic is a lot like the US government as I pointed out. They would have won as soon as enough competent officers and decent politicians were able to have a say. It might have taken another two decades, but they would have done it. Oh, and BTW, the Sith didn't expect to have the Mandalorians roll over them. It would be like expecting the Nation of Israel to invade the continental United Staes and win.

 

Or it could be like expecting the contentional United States to invade the Nation of Fiji and losing? We don't really know how strong the Mandalorains is. And all those Republic troops, including Carth, believed the Mandalorains would have rolled over the Republic...so maybe the Mandalorains would have rolled over the Republic.

 

And the more resources are being spent to fight the Mandalorains...the weaker the Republic can be, which was the main point of the war, for the True Sith.

 

. As much as you might think Revan or the Exile were automatically evil

 

I don't consider them evil. I am being devil's advocate here, defending the Jedi Council's activites. What the Jedi Council would say is that they are not evil...but, say, misguided?

 

I have played the game both dark and light side, and there is nothing suggesting Kavar was in charge of the situation with the Exile.

 

Here is the plan that I saw Kavar was doing.

 

Master Kavar is just a strageic genius as Revan is. His plan was to wait, wait for the true enemy to reveal itself on Onderon. Master Kavar told Queen Talia to do nothing, to let her hold over Onderon grow weaker. When it did, Master Kavar then detected the true enemy...the Sith on Onderon, as they grow confident that the Queen would be deposed. Now that the true threat (Darth Nihilus' troops) was idenitifed, they could be slain.

 

Prehaps, by Revan intervening, the True Sith decided not to reveal themselves...meaning that the Republic actually suffers in the long run.

 

Is the plan stupid? Prehaps. It was Master Kavar that told the Jedi to flee and spilt up...which saved the Jedi Masters from Darth Nihlius...Make of it what you will. But Mandalore said that they were expecting to face off Master Kavar in battle, not Revan.

 

So... first of all, is is speculation that the True Sith pushed the Mandalorians into war.

If it was true, why didn't the True Sith attack the Republic after the Republic barely won?

 

How come you know the True Sith hasn't ALREADY attacked, prehaps maybe via Revan and Kreia himself?

 

Hey, we're dealing with a secret enemy. Until K3 comes out, it could be that the True Sith is already funding a campagin to get one of its members elected to Grand Chancellor.

 

In the cut content, Mandalore state that the war that Revan is fighting is a war of ideology, lasting for hunderds of years. This is just merely one battle in that long and dreadful war...just one attack, to weaken the Republic, but more strikes will be needed.

 

And your other idea would probably not work either. The jedi wanted the Mandalorians to expand, to take over? And then defeat them? Once the republic is defeated the Jedi can't do anything. The Jedi may be a few elite warriors, however you need millions of soldiers and space cruisers to win a war.

 

Two things:

 

1) But let us see during the Great Sith War, when the Brotherhood of Darkness expanded and took over half the galaxy? Why did the Republic win the war? Simple. The Republic waited and the Brotherhood of Darkness killed each other.

 

What I said is that the Jedi wanted the Republic to wait. If the Jedi and the Republic waited for the Mandalorains to started killing each other, rather than rushing in troops to stop them...then maybe their plan would have worked.

 

The Mandalorains wanted to bait the Republic to war. The Jedi knew that. The Republic fell for that trap, and went to war...which was a very big mistake. The Mandalorains won the Mandalorain Wars, as they got what they wanted, and the Republic was the true loser, as it lost lots of men so that the Mandlorains can be happy...

 

2) By letting the Republic suffer, by letting the Republic grow weak, the True Sith would be happy and maybe strike at the Republic. Once the True Sith reveals themselves, the Jedi can slaughter the leaders of the True Sith...and win the war. See Master Kavar's plan for what I mean.

---

Anyway, I do not want to talk any more about this. The reason is that this may go down into a huge flamewar, and I already understand your points that you have made. All I call in response that you understand what I say in response. We learn what each other think, and we get a fuller understanding of what happened during the Mandaloarin Wars. So, can we get off this?

[machievelli]

Here, we may get into an argument. I'd disagree. The only way to stop Hitler was to cause World War II, in any of those situations.

 

In 1936 when Germany reoccupied the Rhineland, they had less than a year after repudiating the Versailles Treaty. While the German economy is booming, they still have not begun to rearm, or at least, beyond preparing for that Rearmament. That is why Rommel had the orders he did. Either England or France had enough troops to beat the entire German army with just their front line troops. What they did not have was the will to fight then. As an example, in a book by William F Buckley he pointed out that the entire Iron Curtain would have collapsed if the American Garrison in Berlin had drive a single tank over the barbed wire that would later been the Berlin wall. We didn't do it then for the same reason.

 

And if any of these countries caused World War II...Well? The same exact situation, those same civilians and military men, would still die. But Germany wanted war, and the other nations would not.

 

If Hitler had been killed, or stood down, it would not have occured. Germany did not want a war, they wanted the land that had been stolen from them by the Treaty of Versaille.

 

And, no, I disagree with comparing the USSR to True Sith. Real life is different from false life, and here is the difference: Nazis are not contorlled by the USSR. In fact, the Nazis attacked the USSR, and hated the USSR very much so. Prehaps the Mandalorains liked the True Sith and accepted it...at least until Mandalore realized the True Sith used them. Nazis were never used.

 

I have never compared the Mandalorians to the Nazis. I compared them to all of those 'freedom fighter' rebellions where the communists supplied money and training so that they could cause problems the US would later have to deal with. The terrorists we are fighting now were first organized then trained by the old Communist order.

 

 

Secret treay with USSR and National Socialists allowed for the division of Poland into spheres. This treaty was formed primarly out of convince...as well as the USSR wants to rearm and prepare itself...for the real war, the war against the National Socialists. Also, since most western nations hated both Nazis and USSR, they were sort of forced together. Oh, and the USSR wanted to expand their sphere of infulence too (who nation doesn't?).

 

So by what right did they give away half a country that wasn't theirs any more? As much as they can rationalize reaquiring what they lost in the First World War, it doesn't make it right.

 

By the same token, giving away a third of Czechoslovakia which is what Chamberlain did was also expedient, but still not right.

 

Or it could be like expecting the contentional United States to invade the Nation of Fiji and losing? We don't really know how strong the Mandalorains is. And all those Republic troops, including Carth, believed the Mandalorains would have rolled over the Republic...so maybe the Mandalorains would have rolled over the Republic.

 

What I am pointing out is that the Mandalorians did not attack directly for the same reason Mexico does not merely march across the Texas border and install customs patrols. What will the other nation do? When Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait in 1990, he did so because the US (The only most likely to actually do anything) had spent almost 30 years running away rather than confronting such actions. His advisors told him that we would do nothing, and if we did nothing, so would the world

 

It was Master Kavar that told the Jedi to flee and spilt up...which saved the Jedi Masters from Darth Nihlius...Make of it what you will. But Mandalore said that they were expecting to face off Master Kavar in battle, not Revan.

 

 

That is because when you do a threat estimate, you use the person you expect to be in command. If you have seen the movie Midway, you recognize the situation. The Japanese went in expecting Bull Halsey, whom they had studied in depth. Instead they got Ray Spruance and Black Jack Fletcher, one (Spruance ) an unknown quantity, and the other (Fletcher) a cautious man.

 

In the cut content, Mandalore state that the war that Revan is fighting is a war of ideology, lasting for hunderds of years. This is just merely one battle in that long and dreadful war...just one attack, to weaken the Republic, but more strikes will be needed.

 

The war between the Sith and the Jedi had been going on for an entire millennia at that point. And here you are right. It is a battle of ideologies.

 

The Mandalorains wanted to bait the Republic to war. The Jedi knew that. The Republic fell for that trap, and went to war...which was a very big mistake. The Mandalorains won the Mandalorain Wars, as they got what they wanted, and the Republic was the true loser, as it lost lots of men so that the Mandlorains can be happy...

 

The Mandalorians like the Nazis, or as I said, like the ones who have invaded others since, spent 12 years testing the waters before they invaded the Republic. Hitler tested the waters with brief 'reoccupations' from 1936 until September of 1939. If your enemy just stands there for over a decade allowing you to do what you want, what do you expect him to do when you really start fighting him directly?

[machievelli]

Interesting: After all the warnings, not a flamewar in sight...

[Grey Master]

Double post...ARRRRRRR!! Its time to duel!!!

 

Well, its interesting to see the comparison between WWII and The Mandalorian Wars, and I think there is a website comparison of this kind of subjects, let me see if I can find it.

 

I also want to thank all the people who had the time to comment.

Im really looking forward for more debate and more knowledge....

[machievelli]

Sorry to step on your sensitivities there GM.

[The Architect]

So... first of all, is is speculation that the True Sith pushed the Mandalorians into war.

If it was true, why didn't the True Sith attack the Republic after the Republic barely won?

 

Perhaps because of this theory?

 

http://forums.obsidianent.com/index.php?showtopic=42877&view=findpost&p=695656

 

However, in that idea, instead of redeeming a Revan who is set as LS, there would be no need to redeem him/her, since a Revan who is set as LS would just be ‘fake DS’. LS Revan would become ‘fake DS Punisher type Revan.”

[Fuu]

Interesting: After all the warnings, not a flamewar in sight...

 

Thanks to you....if left to me I would have started cursing long ago.

 

@GM: I'm glad you started this thread; it will be nice to have much of that “on record”. XD. I can appreciate your thirst for discussion. I may not be the most knowledgeable when it comes to EU (Although little more now thanks to my conversations w/ mach & others) but I definitely enjoy hashing out the gaps in between what I know.

[machievelli]

However, in that idea, instead of redeeming a Revan who is set as LS, there would be no need to redeem him/her, since a Revan who is set as LS would just be ‘fake DS’. LS Revan would become ‘fake DS Punisher type Revan.”

 

When I began to write my version of KOTOR (Under Excerpts, which it most definitely is not any more) I was hung up on Dantooine because of a bug in my video card. So I had a lot of time to understand the character long before I discovered that she was really Revan. In fact everything that happened before the attack on the Endar Spire in my version was written three months later when I ran into Leviathan. Some things before that revelation were also changed because I came to realize the Dankia Wordweaver I had created could not be what Revan had been, but still had all of the attitudes and make up of her original persona. She was the same person set back to square one, learning all over again.

 

But regardless of the 'inevitable fall' every one seems to assume, I knew that there had to be a reason in her personality as it sat that would have caused it. So I remembered the lying comment made by Peter Arnette during the Vietnam War where he claimed an American officer said 'we destroyed the village to save it'. Revan wanted to save the Republic, and saw only replacing the government as a way to do so, pure and simple.

 

Considering the CF If you don't know what the letters mean, ask me by PM. With proof of your age the government was in the New Trilogy, I doubt it was any better way back when. How many times do you think some Jedi sent on a totally ridiculous mission said to himself 'you know, if I shot that SOB instead of trying to negotiate everything would work out better'.

 

But the Jedi aren't allowed to do that. They are supposed to obey the code. But they are still humans with feelings, and attitudes of their own, even if they started at five or six. All the training is for is to curb the natural tendency to throttle the obstructionists.

 

So Revan, now Danika learns she can use the force. She learns how to use it, and is buried in the Jedi code. But wanting to read everything? My stepdaughter is 16, has a 7th grade education, reads only what she wants to read (Mad Libs are top of the line to her, and they're set at what, 3rd grade?) so I couldn't see giving her a mind wipe and having her be a bookworm. So that was Revan's natural attitude. She like to read and study. She started right where Revan would have been if she had not gone to war.

 

So she's given the impossible mission. Again, her natural tendencies come to the fore. She doesn't whine, she doesn't complain, she doesn't scream 'why me?' She says, 'Yes sir', and sets out. All of the dialogue between her and Bastila from that point on reflects this. Bastila harping on 'not falling to the Dark side' until finally she asks 'is it really that easy?'.

 

Everyone assuming that she's automatically weak because she was reborn, and she proves by the end to be stronger than they realized.

 

But that is her natural inclination.