PC of KotOR III's force connection?

[bolsen]

i think starting as an initiate in a sith academy would be an interesting change. you could be training one day and then find out that a jedi has infiltrated the academy. everyone is a suspect, including yourself, and you try to find out who it is. you find the jedi and for some reason you have a choice to make. either you can turn them in or you can help them. (starting point for LS and DS sides of the story).

[Lord Foley]

I think that you should play as a Jedi initiate when suddenly, the Sith attack and all of those Jedi are killed- ie, you receive no training other than the basic realization that you are connected to the Force. Infinite possibilities. But in order for the new character to come anywhere close to being as epic or loved as Revan or the Exile, they need to make him a major character as far as the galaxy is concerned. He needs to become a huge icon and do amazing things. There's simply no way an "in the shadows" character like the Exile can ever surpass Revan in greatness, simply because we want to see epic things. And to be honest, the new character needs to be better than Revan. No matter how much I love Revan being the most powerful person ever, they have to keep up the idea that everyone can be beaten.

[Jediphile]

I wasn't sure if that was clear in my post, but I would also really prefer that the character start out without any affiliations either. It would make more sense, and give the player more freedom.

 

The problem with that is that Jedi and Sith are undoubtedly the most powerful forceusers around, so if you belong to neither, then why can you grow powerful enough to defeat the true Sith?

 

I do want the PC to have a Force Connection and be the only one that can destroy the True Sith. Why? Because if he's just some nobody...and he smashed the True Sith, then why not SOMEONE ELSE?

 

Actually, I think bluewhale already gave a very good reason for that (I can't believe I didn't think of this myself...)

 

For K3, part the reason is already there. If the PC is force-sensitive, they are different from everybody else in that way

 

Now, I know SilentScope001 has already asked, then why not some other force-sensitive? Well, what other force-sensitives are there? The whole point of TSL is that the exile is the last one, because Sion and Nihilus have killed everyone else. Okay, so there are jedi masters out there in TSL, but they all die during the course of the plot, and the exile then goes away to join Revan's crusade against the true Sith.

 

So how many jedi does that leave us with? None. The only ones we could count are Bastila and the exile's companions, if the exile was LS. Then again, a trained young adult who is only just become a padawan has a definite advantage over the exile's companions, because this person has already had years of training, while the companions know the force only through a fairly short time (less than a year) with the exile. Besides, they gained power from force bonding with the exile, and now the exile is gone, so where does that leave them? We don't know, really...

 

Basically, the problem lies with the fact that Revan was already established as the uber-jedi of the KotOR era, and Kreia confirmed it in TSL by calling him the heart of the force. The exile is not as powerful, but has some very unique force bonding powers that makes him unique in other ways, particularly when combined with the force wound. It was an interesting way of making the character powerful in an obviously different way from Revan.

 

But to do a third uber-power strains credibility, I think. So does creating a huge background to explain those powers that the character has then either conveniently forgotten (Revan) or else is in total denial about (exile). If any of that is attempted, then K3 will be old hat from the beginning...

 

Fortunately we don't really need it. Simply being a jedi is already going to be fairly unusual in itself. Why? Because all the other jedi have either vanished or been killed.

[SilentScope001]

Now, I know SilentScope001 has already asked, then why not some other force-sensitive? Well, what other force-sensitives are there? The whole point of TSL is that the exile is the last one, because Sion and Nihilus have killed everyone else. Okay, so there are jedi masters out there in TSL, but they all die during the course of the plot, and the exile then goes away to join Revan's crusade against the true Sith.

 

The "Lost Jedi"? Hm? They too are Force Senstive indivudals, just like The Exile. Not to mention Atris, another Force-Senstive who could have been a brand-new founder of the Jedi Order...if she didn't do the evil stuff she did.

 

The point was that The Exile was a Wound in the Force, which is why he was being taught/brainwashed by Kreia, why the Lost Jedi came to The Exile to became actual Jedi/Sith, why The Exile was able to grow so powerful, so quickly. This was the only reason why he could destroy The Exile, and a pretty good reason why he could kill off Kreia (as an ending to her training).

 

So how many jedi does that leave us with? None. The only ones we could count are Bastila and the exile's companions, if the exile was LS. Then again, a trained young adult who is only just become a padawan has a definite advantage over the exile's companions, because this person has already had years of training, while the companions know the force only through a fairly short time (less than a year) with the exile. Besides, they gained power from force bonding with the exile, and now the exile is gone, so where does that leave them? We don't know, really...

 

There are other Jedi Masters that surivied the ordeal, less than 100.

 

Even so, it leads up to a question: Why not Bastila? Why not the Exile's companions?

 

Basically, the problem lies with the fact that Revan was already established as the uber-jedi of the KotOR era, and Kreia confirmed it in TSL by calling him the heart of the force. The exile is not as powerful, but has some very unique force bonding powers that makes him unique in other ways, particularly when combined with the force wound. It was an interesting way of making the character powerful in an obviously different way from Revan.

 

But to do a third uber-power strains credibility, I think. So does creating a huge background to explain those powers that the character has then either conveniently forgotten (Revan) or else is in total denial about (exile). If any of that is attempted, then K3 will be old hat from the beginning...

 

Fortunately we don't really need it. Simply being a jedi is already going to be fairly unusual in itself. Why? Because all the other jedi have either vanished or been killed.

 

You may actually get a good point, but I do not think that is enough. Jedi are rare, even rarer than they were before, but they are OTHER Force-Senstives that can take your position. How about the Jedi Padawan's Bunkmate? Why didn't this Bunkmate destroy the True Sith? Or the Jedi Masters? Surely, they are powerful beings.

 

Remember, the True Sith are supposed to be dangerous...to be wiped out by a random Jedi means that it can also be wiped out by another random Jedi. And this weakens the True Sith, and this weakens K3 overall. The PC's Force Connection is actually a huge party of the story, and a very good reason why I like The Exile, for his connection made sense, and played a huge role in the plot.

 

I don't want to make an argument again, so, let just leave it at that, okay?

[Jediphile]

The "Lost Jedi"? Hm? They too are Force Senstive indivudals, just like The Exile. Not to mention Atris, another Force-Senstive who could have been a brand-new founder of the Jedi Order...if she didn't do the evil stuff she did.

 

The exile has gone into the unknown regions to find Revan. Atris is most likely dead, and if she is not, it is because the exile spared her and then prompted her to give up the force as she sought redemption.

 

There are other Jedi Masters that surivied the ordeal, less than 100.

 

I think that's a bit exaggerated...

 

Kreia: "The loss of many Jedi Knights in the war against Malak has further weakened the Republic.Not all Jedi Knights fell in battle... some were seduced by the dark side and the teachings of the Sith.Other Jedi Knights abandoned the Order, claiming the Jedi Council's teaching of Malak and Revan caused them to turn on the Republic.Where once there were thousands, by the war's end, barely a hundred Jedi Knights remained."

 

Kreia: "The Jedi Civil War destroyed the Jedi. By the war's end, barely a hundred Jedi remained. Many fell in battle... and many more were seduced by Revan's teachings.The Jedi Academy on Dantooine is nothing more than a crater that echoes with the ghosts of dead Jedi.And the Jedi Temple on Coruscant lies empty. The waters in the Room of a Thousand Fountains have fallen still, in reverence to the fallen Jedi... and those now lost."

 

Clearly we're talking about a hundred knights, not masters, and note that this was at the end of the jedi civil war, five years before TSL begins, meaning it is before Sion and Nihilus began their shadow war and before Katarr is destroyed. So any left would be from those 100. Five of them are the jedi masters of TSL. So are all those who died on Katarr. So is Bastila (if LS). Vima Sunrider must be out there somewhere as well, and perhaps Nomi is too.

 

Given that Sion is hunting down a jedi exiled by the jedi order a decade before, I think it's safe to assume that a good number of jedi has been killed by then. Otherwise, why would Sion bother to hunt an exiled jedi who lost his connection to the force?

 

Even so, it leads up to a question: Why not Bastila? Why not the Exile's companions?

 

I would include Bastila in the plot, so the pc would be in addition to her. I would also include the companions of the LS exile. But again, a padawan has an clear advantage over the exile's companions - he has gone through years of training to be a jedi that the exile's companions have not, except possibly Mical who never reached the position of padawan.

 

You may actually get a good point, but I do not think that is enough. Jedi are rare, even rarer than they were before, but they are OTHER Force-Senstives that can take your position. How about the Jedi Padawan's Bunkmate? Why didn't this Bunkmate destroy the True Sith? Or the Jedi Masters? Surely, they are powerful beings.

 

What bunkmates? There are none left... Or rather, if there are, the pc is more experienced and older than the others.

 

Remember, the True Sith are supposed to be dangerous...to be wiped out by a random Jedi means that it can also be wiped out by another random Jedi. And this weakens the True Sith, and this weakens K3 overall. The PC's Force Connection is actually a huge party of the story, and a very good reason why I like The Exile, for his connection made sense, and played a huge role in the plot.

 

The exile's unique power was NOT a factor in the struggle against the true Sith, since the true Sith are not the villains of TSL. We might as well ask, if the true Sith are so all-powerful, then why didn't they simply attack instead of staging the Mandalorian Wars? I would say they have powerful individuals, but they don't sound like an empire to me.

[ztemplarz]

Okay, I'm going to admit right here that I didn't read through all the previous posts (I kinda lost patience towards the end of the first page).

 

I think the solution is kinda obvious. Make the protagonist a Mandalorian. Mandalorians hate force-users period, so that would pretty adequately explain WHY it is that he/she never KNEW that they were force sensitive. Maybe they accidentally used the Force a couple times, and scared of the implications, kinda did as the Exile did, cut themselves off from it. Maybe not literally, but just stopped using it. It would also neatly tie them in with the whole Kotor storyline. Revan led rebel Jedi to battle Mandalorians, Exile led rebel Jedi to battle Mandalorians, protagonist led Mandalorians. The protagonist would know of Revan and the Exile, as well as the Sith and the Republic. You could realistically choose lightside or darkside without it seeming contrived- after all, being a Mandalorian, you don't like force-users period, and it turns out you are one.

 

Maybe to make things different, have your first teacher be Sith. Someone that appeals to your martial spirit and casts the Jedi as the reason for the destruction of the Mandalorians. After that beginning period, you reach the pivotal point where you learn what really happened in the Mandalorian wars and have the opportunity to reverse your course- maybe you run into the new Jedi from Kotor 2, or even better, Mandalore. Maybe you're not forced to literally go full-fledged lightside, but instead decide to go grey to buy yourself some more time to investigate your past, and the Mandalorian War.

 

And that way you don't have to explain away why your Force connection is so strong- you never used it. And since you start as Sith, you develop it much more quickly than if you were to start as a Jedi.

[Jediphile]

I've been playing with the idea of a force-sensitive Mandalorian myself, but it still leaves us with the problem that the character then has no prior training in force powers.

 

Besides, judging from what Canderous tells Carth/Mandalore tells Bao-Dur about their attacks on the republic. I don't like them much. Particularly when Mandalore tells Bao-Dur how much they respect the carnage he caused with the MSG, I really don't like them - warmongering, bloodthirsty pigs with no respect for life at all. In a word: Yuck!

[ztemplarz]

When Revan left for the Unknown Regions, he knew he could not take any of his friends with him; the path ahead would doom all he cared about. Revan told Canderous that the True Sith had helped cause the Mandalorian Wars to weaken the Galactic Republic; thus, the Mandalorian Wars were part of an even greater conflict to destroy the Jedi Order. Upon orders from Revan to unite the scattered remnants of the Mandalorians, Canderous soon recovered Mandalore's mask that had previously belonged to Mandalore the Ultimate, who had been killed by Darth Revan, and took up the fallen mantle of Mandalore. He returned to their hidden base on Dxun, a small moon orbiting Onderon. (this is from wookiepedia)

 

Good motivation for a Mandalorian to join the Jedi (the enemy of my enemy). Or maybe he/she joins the Jedi with the explicit purpose of identifying weaknesses in their armor so that he can later exploit them- maybe in the process he actually adopts the Jedi philosophy, maybe he doesn't.

 

On the other hand, there is certainly a good chance that he/she might choose the dark side, since on the surface it is far more appealing to a Mandalorian (kinda like the Handmaiden is inclined to more easily go over to the darkside since she's Echani).

 

It also would make it a little easier to explain the martial prowess, since Mandalorians are obviously highly competent warriors. It would also explain his/her ability to fight Jedi/Sith, since they practice to fight Force users.

 

And whatever you think about Mandalorians, they are at least civilized. They do have codes of honor. They don't betray one another. They don't torture their victims. They pick adversaries that they think would be challenging, not ones that are weak and easy (which is why they attacked the Republic). Technically, they would probably have a little more respect for Sith than Jedi, but would probably still disdain them because of their lack of honor.

[Fish.Stapler]

I've posted this in another thread wondering what we should be. I always thought we should have been a padawan at the time of the Jedi Civil War. You would have been quite strong in the force, something of an enigma. Everyone was wondering how you were getting powerful so quickly and why you were so strong in the Force and then...your master falls to the dark side. You are suspected of dealing with the dark side, and although you get an offer to continue training, you leave in disgust since your fellow Jedi seem to dislike you now. You're one of those Jedi Knights who "switched off the lightsabers". You come back when the New Jedi Order sends out the "casting call" since it's a new group of people who hopefully posess a new mentality about you.

[ztemplarz]

I've posted this in another thread wondering what we should be. I always thought we should have been a padawan at the time of the Jedi Civil War. You would have been quite strong in the force, something of an enigma. Everyone was wondering how you were getting powerful so quickly and why you were so strong in the Force and then...your master falls to the dark side. You are suspected of dealing with the dark side, and although you get an offer to continue training, you leave in disgust since your fellow Jedi seem to dislike you now. You're one of those Jedi Knights who "switched off the lightsabers". You come back when the New Jedi Order sends out the "casting call" since it's a new group of people who hopefully posess a new mentality about you.

 

Accckk. I'm quite sick of enigmatically strong padawans. And even if you did decide to "switch off your lightsaber", then if you answer the Jedi's casting call, you're already making it biased towards the light-side path, and we already did that in Kotor 1.

[The Architect]

Points to you ztemplarz! I like your idea and your reasoning. I agree that Fish.Stapler’s idea is too biased towards the LS, as are many of the new KotOR III main character ideas.

 

Jediphile, there are four problems with your idea. You said that the PC of KotOR III has a clear advantage over the Exile's companions, as he/she has gone through years of training to be a Jedi that the Exile's companions have not, except possibly the Disciple who never reached the position of padawan.

 

a) That idea seems too biased towards the LS.

 

b) How do you explain why your character is at level one (he/she must be) at the start of the game? LS/DS Exile’s companions are not level one characters, so if your character is more powerful than them, then why would they (and they would be, since you have to start at level one) be at a higher level than the K3 PC for?

 

c) Why isn’t LS/DS Bastila (your master in your story) the PC of KotOR III? Shouldn’t the PC be the most powerful character in the party?

 

d) In your story, the new Jedi Order is led by LS Exile's companions or a set of replacable characters (DS Exile), yet the PC isn't? Why? If the PC 'has the advantage' over the Exile's companions or other less trained Jedi, then wouldn't he/she be better suited in a Council member/leader role of this new Jedi Order? Why would you train under them?

[SilentScope001]

Besides, judging from what Canderous tells Carth/Mandalore tells Bao-Dur about their attacks on the republic. I don't like them much. Particularly when Mandalore tells Bao-Dur how much they respect the carnage he caused with the MSG, I really don't like them - warmongering, bloodthirsty pigs with no respect for life at all. In a word: Yuck!

 

And that is the point exactly. The Mandalorians are supposed to be the copycats of the Barbarains in today's societies, like the Huns. Unlike the Sith who are doing it to gain DSPs (in other words, they have a REASON), they just destroy planets to have fun. They are meant to be warmongering, bloodthirsty pigs, and that why I love them.

 

It does sound too biased towards the Dark Side, but hey, the first two KOTORs' storyline were biased towards LS (somewhat, Revan was forced to help out the Jedi Council anyway...and the Exile did fight against the Mandalorisn in the Mandalorian Wars [altough you decide if you were doing it to save the people...or just to have fun in butchering]), it's time for some love for the DS.

 

And, I still want a reason for why the PC would be able to destroy the True Sith, starting off at Level 1...and then rising in power so quickly throughout the game to smash it. Of course, I just want a reason, I don't care what that reason is, that's for the developers to come up with and suprise us all.

[Rogue Spy]

How about you don't become or play as a Jedi at all ? theres alot more to just being the all powerful Jedi, K3 might become fun in other ways, becoming somthing else. You should be able to choose to be whatever class you want, wether being a Jedi or not. The game could have a Star Wars Galaxies effect, in the way of playing as various classes/professions.

[The Architect]

How about you don't become or play as a Jedi at all ? theres alot more to just being the all powerful Jedi, K3 might become fun in other ways, becoming somthing else. You should be able to choose to be whatever class you want, wether being a Jedi or not. The game could have a Star Wars Galaxies effect, in the way of playing as various classes/professions.

 

KotOR III will most likely have a linear plot (not as linear as KotOR and TSL) but linear enough to the point where we will have no choice but to fight the big guns/major villains in KotOR III I assume. So no, not playing as a Jedi, or a Sith, or any type of force-user will not solve the “starting off as level one and ending up as a powerhouse” problem, it will only make it far worse.

 

The bottom line is, we need to be a Jedi, or a Sith, or a powerful force user in KotOR III, and after all, as much as I hate to use clichés, it is Knights of the Old Republic.

[PazaakPrincess]

I don't mind the idea of playing a Mandalorian war veteran, that would be a very cool way to come at the storey line especially if you meet up with Revan and the Exile.

 

But what I don't understand is why no-one wants to continue as the Exile?

[Jediphile]

But what I don't understand is why no-one wants to continue as the Exile?

 

Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but for me it's because...

 

1. All the trouble associated with the Exile's alignment - is the exile LS or DS? It should matter, and if it does, then playing as the Exile would basically demand that the devs write a game for each possibility. I'd rather they write just one game that's really, really good.

 

2. The level problem..

 

Playing the exile would mean that you either begin at a high level or start over.

 

Now, if you begin at a high level, then which is it? In TSL you can go as high as level 50, but how many have? I certainly never did, and you can complete the game quite easily below level 27. So should the exile start at level 30? That would not go well with people who really did play to level 50. Those people who only played to level 27 or so, however, would find it odd if you're pushed up to level 50.

 

Besides, playing at high levels robs you of the progressive element of the game, where you build your character from nothing to greatness. We want that back, or at least I do.

 

I will NOT abide playing another "powerful jedi with complex history that has now conveniently lost all his/her powers and must start over." We've already done it twice in two games, and to do it thrice would be an insult. If we had to do it with the exile, whom we already did it for in the last game, then we add injury to that insult IMHO.

 

Conclusion: New character. Let Revan and exile by NPCs, perhaps playable late in the game.

[adamqd]

Conclusion: New character. Let Revan and exile by NPCs, perhaps playable late in the game.

 

Agreed, I think stories need to be finished, but I don't want it to be KOTOR 2.5, it needs continuity but it also needs to stand alone.

 

Regarding force connection, I need a lightsaber, so I'd like a Jedi/Sith character.

[Fish.Stapler]

@ztemplarz and Architect, that means that nearly every Sith and every Star Wars release was light side biased. Perhaps it is, but the point I'm trying to make is that nearly all of the most powerful Sith Lords or villains were at one point Jedi. Revan, Malak, Anakin, Quel-Droma,I can go on for a very long time. So what if they started out as Jedi? They forsook it and your PC can forsake it too. DS Revan ended up doing that.

 

and ztemplarz, the enigmatically strong padawans thing. I'm pretty sure that there's a lot of dialogue saying that the Exile was just a normal padawan, completely average in the force but having a unique ability to lead, so he was really just average in the ways most jedi are but posessed a gift most jedi don't need. Your character doesn't even need to be uber powerful, but that "dark side quick and easy path to power" is a reason why he could become a suspect and why he could want to leave the order. Being a Jedi Knight as well would account for his fast regaining of strength. Perhaps he could have known both Revan and the Exile as a tie-in point.

 

Personal speculation though.

[The Architect]

Fish.Stapler, the reason why I don’t want to start off KotOR III as a Jedi, or someone who was a Jedi (like in KotOR and TSL) is because as I’ve said, it’s too biased towards the LS. It’s forced, and to me, that’s not fair from a role-playing point of view.

 

Almost every Star Wars game is biased towards the LS apparently, so I think it’s about time there was a change. Not everyone wants to start off as a Jedi, or be someone that was.

 

While SilentScope001 made the good point that if why you joined the Jedi Order isn’t forced on you by the devs, then you could “make up the reason” why, so from a certain perspective, it doesn’t affect your role-playing.

 

However, I really like ztemplarz’s idea, for several reasons. I’d like to play as a say, middle-aged, skilled Mandalorian with a decent force connection, because:

 

a) This isn’t replacing one bias with another, because the difference is, you are BORN a Mandalorian, and are brought up into their culture. It’s not the same.

 

b) If you are someone who fought in the Mandalorian Wars, you are automatically tied into the previous games.

 

c) Being a Mandalorian under Mandalore, you have plenty of motivation and reason to do whatever quests you’d do in KotOR III, because you are under Mandalore, a big Revan and Exile fanboy. You get the point here.

 

d) While you could argue this is biased towards the DS, you don’t necessarily have to be a heartless jerk, like most Mandalorians are. You could notably be “different”, which makes you special, which makes you stand out. The reason could be because of your force connection.

 

e) The Mandalorians are renowned for their martial prowess and ability to put up a good fight against powerful Jedi and Sith. Look at pre-KotOR Mandalore and Canderous. They were good enough to give the likes of Kreia, Revan, Malak and the Exile a run for their money. Think about it, if you are a skilled Mandalorian who can USE THE FORCE, you don’t really need a “reason” to explain why you can take on the big guns of K3. You might also be destined to become the greatest Mandalore ever.

 

You have good reasons to be LS, DS or neutral (which could equate to becoming Mandalore and fighting against the Jedi and the Sith). The good LS reason = you are assigned to spy on the Jedi Order, but because you are “different” from most Mandalorians, plus your ability to use the force, you become a fanboy of the Jedi teachings, and become one. The good DS reason = you turn out to be a stereotypical Mandalorian in the end. You become a Sith, as their teachings greatly appeal to you.

 

You’d start out as neutral (perhaps slightly DS) and then your role-playing will decide if you truly are “different” than most Mandalorians, as some may speculate, or you just turn out to be a real brutish, DS jerk. That way, you avoid the repetitive theme of redemption, because you’re not redeeming yourself. You’re starting off as a sceptical, questioning fence sitter. Perhaps fighting in the Mandalorian Wars is what “changed you”, for good or ill.

 

It’s a fantastic idea ztemplarz. The best one I’ve read so far IMO.

 

@Jediphile, a, b, c and d (the four problems I have with your idea) are indeed difficult to answer/counter, aren’t they? No, I’m not trying to infer that avoiding answering my questions implies that I’m right (or am I?). Whether you answer them or not is up to you, but if you don’t, you can’t blame me for contemplating that you don’t, because you can’t counter them.

[Web Rider]

personally I'd like to see a force-newb. All these players with "history" are cool, but I think it distracts from an otherwise interesting plot. Would KOTOR 2 really have been any different if our character was just a do-gooder trying to stop this evil Sith thing or a person making up for past sins? not really. the game would more or less be the same.

 

Same with Kotor 1. If Malak taunted us about how the Jedi order was making us JUST LIKE Revan, instead of being Revan. Same story, no real change.

[Jediphile]

Fish.Stapler, the reason why I don’t want to start off KotOR III as a Jedi, or someone who was a Jedi (like in KotOR and TSL) is because as I’ve said, it’s too biased towards the LS. It’s forced, and to me, that’s not fair from a role-playing point of view.

 

Were Revan, exile, Bastila and Zayne biased towards the LS? I don't think so - Revan and Bastila did fall to the dark side, and it was your choice whether they should embrace it or return to LS. Zayne was accused of being DS and chose to defy either possibility. Exile has the choice as well. Clearly being raised by the jedi order does not force any choice on you. I mean, look at Zayne and Bastila, whose background we do know something about. They were both given to the jedi order when they were very young. Is that forced? They didn't have a choice, but then they were also too young to make one. What if my character is a newborn on Coruscant with strong force sensitivity and poor parents - is it forced that they decide the character should be raised in the jedi order? No, because it's just training - clearly it in no way dictates your alignment choice. Besides, most Sith Lords we know seem to have come from the jedi order (Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-Droma, Revan, Malak, Bastila, Traya, Dooku, Anakin Skywalker, etc.).

 

Almost every Star Wars game is biased towards the LS apparently, so I think it’s about time there was a change. Not everyone wants to start off as a Jedi, or be someone that was.

 

Well, it IS called Knights of the Old Republic. There are no knights among the Sith or the Mandalorians...

 

While SilentScope001 made the good point that if why you joined the Jedi Order isn’t forced on you by the devs, then you could “make up the reason” why, so from a certain perspective, it doesn’t affect your role-playing.

 

However, I really like ztemplarz’s idea, for several reasons. I’d like to play as a say, middle-aged, skilled Mandalorian with a decent force connection, because:

 

a) This isn’t replacing one bias with another, because the difference is, you are BORN a Mandalorian, and are brought up into their culture. It’s not the same.

 

I fail to see the difference between playing a Mandalorian, who is born with a disposition towards DS, over a jedi whom - according to you - is born with a disposition towards the LS. It is at least as forced if not more so IMHO.

 

b) If you are someone who fought in the Mandalorian Wars, you are automatically tied into the previous games.

 

So would anyone raised by the jedi order be given Sion's and Nihilus' shadow war.

 

c) Being a Mandalorian under Mandalore, you have plenty of motivation and reason to do whatever quests you’d do in KotOR III, because you are under Mandalore, a big Revan and Exile fanboy. You get the point here.

 

Only if it is, again, forced on the player. Maybe I don't want to follow Mandalore, as he tries to suck up to Revan and exile. Maybe I think he's just a pathetic fanboy who disgraces the Mandalorians by turning us over to our enemies, just like Esok did. If that's what I want to do and I can't, then it's also forced.

 

d) While you could argue this is biased towards the DS, you don’t necessarily have to be a heartless jerk, like most Mandalorians are. You could notably be “different”, which makes you special, which makes you stand out. The reason could be because of your force connection.

 

That argument is just as valid for a jedi not being LS, I think. Nobody says that starting as a jedi you MUST be nice, goody-goody little Disciple-lookalike - you can be just as much of a jerk as you want to even so. Indeed, the chances for that are now greater than ever in the plot, given what shambles the jedi order is really in.

 

e) The Mandalorians are renowned for their martial prowess and ability to put up a good fight against powerful Jedi and Sith. Look at pre-KotOR Mandalore and Canderous. They were good enough to give the likes of Kreia, Revan, Malak and the Exile a run for their money. Think about it, if you are a skilled Mandalorian who can USE THE FORCE, you don’t really need a “reason” to explain why you can take on the big guns of K3. You might also be destined to become the greatest Mandalore ever.

 

The Mandalorians were cannon fodder for the jedi. Their strength lay in their determination, and they prayed upon the Republic's uncertainty and indecision. Once Revan and Malak led the Republic forces and were willing to make sacrifices, the Mandalorians began losing. Revan killed Mandalore. The Mandalorians were only better than the republic soldiers because they were so ruthless. Besides, if you're a Mandalorian (and I have suggested that myself in the past), then following your background while having force powers is clearly biased towards DS. I thought you didn't like the character being "forced." Indeed, how Revan, Malak and all the other jedi fell to the dark side because they were taught war by fighting the Mandalorians seems to confirm that. If I were a force sensitive Mandalorian, I'd much rather my character was raised by the jedi order, because then I'd have a background that tends towards DS and one towards LS. Which will I chooce? And, of course, I'll be an outcast because neither side will like me much.

 

You have good reasons to be LS, DS or neutral (which could equate to becoming Mandalore and fighting against the Jedi and the Sith). The good LS reason = you are assigned to spy on the Jedi Order, but because you are “different” from most Mandalorians, plus your ability to use the force, you become a fanboy of the Jedi teachings, and become one. The good DS reason = you turn out to be a stereotypical Mandalorian in the end. You become a Sith, as their teachings greatly appeal to you.

 

Your LS option is forced because I must be a spy, and so we're back to square one. In fact, we're not even on square one, because we have no reason why this character has a strong force connection that allows him to rise to high levels quickly in the plot. He was never a force-user before, if I understand you correctly, and so he has no advantage over any other force sensitive character we could imagine. And if he did have a history as an experienced force-user and fought in the Mandalorian Wars, then he would already be a dark jedi or a Sith...

 

You’d start out as neutral (perhaps slightly DS) and then your role-playing will decide if you truly are “different” than most Mandalorians, as some may speculate, or you just turn out to be a real brutish, DS jerk. That way, you avoid the repetitive theme of redemption, because you’re not redeeming yourself. You’re starting off as a sceptical, questioning fence sitter. Perhaps fighting in the Mandalorian Wars is what “changed you”, for good or ill.

 

An "indecisive" Mandalorian is someone who was already killed by more decisive Mandalorians. Besides, if you were a veteran from the war and embrace the LS, then you must confront what you have done in the past. Which means we're back to redemption again.

 

It’s a fantastic idea ztemplarz. The best one I’ve read so far IMO.

 

There's nothing new about it and it doesn't solve anything IMHO.

 

@Jediphile, a, b, c and d (the four problems I have with your idea) are indeed difficult to answer/counter, aren’t they? No, I’m not trying to infer that avoiding answering my questions implies that I’m right (or am I?). Whether you answer them or not is up to you, but if you don’t, you can’t blame me for contemplating that you don’t, because you can’t counter them.

 

Clearly I just did, and it didn't even take 10 minutes. Also, your argument does not address the deeper issue, which is why the central character of KotOR3 would have the ability to rise quickly in levels and become a powerful jedi or sith in almost no time. In the previous games that problem has been solved by giving you a troubled jedi background that you somehow cast aside and must now embrace again. I gave the character a background and platform to rise to greatness from. This idea gives us none, and so you might just as well play any lowly scoundrel from the streets of Corellia or wherever, since it just doesn't serve any purpose to the issue at hand.

 

And for the record, trying to "fish" for an answer or "bait" someone into responding is frankly trolling - whether I choose to respond or not is my choice, and you cannot infer anything from my silence, if I choose to say nothing. Now, I'm not angry with you, because I feel I know you and therefore conclude that was not your intent, but someone else might have been pretty upset with your tactic here, if he thought it was intentional. You really shouldn't do this in the future.

[khawk]

Now that I have read some parts of this thread, not all forgive me for that, I can say some things about the character in my own plot with which I am busy with thinking / plotting / writing.

Let's say, the game begins. You create your character, it has the possibility of creating an alien race. A cut scene opening. Your main character is lying in your apartment in a republic military facility on coruscant.

You are dreaming.

 

You see your past self, in the Jedi Academy on Dantooine. Then the Sith attack (it's what happens in Kotor I). You see the jedi masters as well as your own trusted master fleeing to the transport. You fight. Then, some dark jedi paralyse you. You got captured. Then, you see yourself on the Star Forge. After that you have basically two memories. One were you escape the space station during the battle when Revan entered the star forge and the republic attacked. You find an escape pod and escapes to the unknown planet. But another, much more vague when someone else saves your life and the next thing you see is some crystal cave and yourself in a kolto tank.

 

But they both end with when you supposedly went to Dantooine and smash your lightsaber in front of the Jedi Council claiming "they abandoned you"

 

I know, it is forced but I can say that after some gametime you actually discover that you never left the Jedi order and you discover that only one of the two dreams is actually to some extent what really happened with you.

 

And why is this character actually able to defeat the True Sith where Revan and the Exile were not able to do that? Now, that has something to do with who you truely are which, just like with Revan and the Exile is revealed during the game. Unlike Kotor I and II I plan to make it fragmented. First you find out who you are and later why it is that you are the premium choice of defeating the True Sith.

 

I can also reveal that In this plot, there is also another candidate suitable to defeat them and she is also a party member.

What I can further tell you about the character:

 

1) Your character is unlike Revan and the Exile not a person with much leadership abilities.

2) Your character isn't that powerful. Maybe less powerful then Revan and the Exile but he/she has one ability which makes you very different and therefore be able to defeat the True Sith.

 

Because of this, I think it will become a very different game then Kotor I and II which adds some variety.

 

Final note: How does this character become strong in the force? It's simple. During your "work" as someone working for the Republic (non force sensitive classes available here, I don't much care about which and what can be selected) you will be attacked by a Sith Assassin. You are not able to defeat him but a Jedi, who happened to be at the right place at the right time can. She, your first party member, rescues you and tells you that you were the target. She makes clear to you that if you don't train to become a Jedi (again) these Sith will come after you again.

As you can make out that you cannot walk away and continue your job. The fact that this Assassin found you while your details are classified Republic data is proof enough you will have to train your force powers again to be able to deal with the Sith.

 

Somewhat like Kyle Katarn in Jedi Outcast, right? Don't worry, it is far different from that. There is much more to it.

[SilentScope001]

khawk-Your idea doesn't exactly solve the problem. Nice cutscenes and all...but I rather play through those moments rather than see them as dreams. The reason it doesn't solve the problem is because you didn't tell us what is his strength. Unless, you are willing to leave it to Obisidan, in which case, it is a good idea.

 

The Architect=Jediphile does give some good points, and somehow, it does not seem as though it could sastify the force connection requirement, unless the Mandalorian finds out.

 

Jediphile-Your character has no such Force Connection. You even let the Main Character start off even more powerful than the "Jedi Masters" on the council (The Exile's companions). The companions has a strong Force Connection, they are Force Sensitves, and this is the source of their power. They all have been using it unconsisusly (Atton killing Jedi, Mira being a great bounty hunter, etc.).

 

You say that it makes the story seem wrong, but well...it cheapens the True Sith, and cheapens the game overall.

 

My View: I don't care as long as there is a Force Connection, it makes sense, and the background gives me enough lee-way.

===

A NOTE: All stories are forced. All backgrounds are forced. What if I didn't want to go into Exile in K2? What if I didn't want to throw my lightsaber into the ground? What if I wanted to, in rage, murder all the Jedi at the trial? What if I didn't WANT to fight with Revan and Exile during the Mandalorian Wars?

 

What if I didn't want to be secretly Revan in K1? Heck, what if I didn't even want to work for the Republic in K1, what if I allied with the Sith aramada?

 

As you can see, neither K1 or K2 gave us an open background. They forced us. To me, a Background is a "Character Sheet" that the GM gives you, and it's up to YOU to decide what happens.

 

You contorl the reason why you join the Jedi Order...and you also contorl the reason why you followed Manadolre. You hate Mandalore, but you decide he's the only solution to the decaying Mandalorian Race, and you decide that you want to grow more powerful so that you can launch an attack and kill off Mandalore, and steer the Mandalorian Race into a new war with the Republic and the Jedi Order. It is this contorl that I desire. Do I want to steer the Mandalorian to the LS Path? Sure...This Mandalorian was defeated by a Jedi after attacking him...and the Jedi "spared" him. It is this sparing that let the Mandalorian found out more about the Jedi, and let him gain some sympathy. Prehaps this Mandalorian was wounded, and it was the Jedi Order that actually healed the Mandalorian, and maybe taught him virtues such as compassions.

 

Basically, instead of having the Mandalorian PC say, "We defeated the Republic! We smashed it to itty-bitty pieces if it wasn't for Revan, but now Revan is on our side, so we will rise again and destroy everything! RAAR!"...

 

You can have him say: "I'm sorry."

[khawk]

Well, actually my plot could enable you to actually play those moments. I guess i'll just made it easy for the game developer to make a cutscene like that. Well, it wouldn't be my decision anyway. Obsidian doesn't use my plot off course. If they would? Well, I off course wouldn't claim credit for using my idea's but I probably have the right to do so. Other then that, I would have spoiled a lot on this forum.

 

And about my characters Strenght? Well, I don't want to spoil my plot before I actually publish it. You'll find out when I have finished / polished and published my story on this board. Hm, yes, I can say that if you think only the Exile could kill Darth Nihilus my new main character has a very different but somewhat similar ability against a power the True Sith use.

Revan / Exile doesn't have this ability.

[Jediphile]

Jediphile-Your character has no such Force Connection. You even let the Main Character start off even more powerful than the "Jedi Masters" on the council (The Exile's companions).

 

No, I just gave the character years of training that the exile's companions did not have. TSL spans a year of less, and the exile's companions rose to whatever levels they ended up with in a fraction of that. So they have only practical experience, but lack most of the training a "genuine" jedi would have due to having gone through years and years of training, with the possible exception of Disciple (who did not even reach the rank of padawan).

 

The exile's companions are "found" or "discovered" jedi with all experience and no practice. The main character would be a "real" jedi with all practice and little experience to begin with. So he would not have the experience (= levels) of the exile's companions, but he would be better suited to resisting the lure of the dark side because of his years of training that the exile's companions did not go through.

 

The companions has a strong Force Connection, they are Force Sensitves, and this is the source of their power. They all have been using it unconsisusly (Atton killing Jedi, Mira being a great bounty hunter, etc.).

 

You say that it makes the story seem wrong, but well...it cheapens the True Sith, and cheapens the game overall.

 

I have already stated that I do not agree with you on that point. You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but just because I have the gall to disagree with you, it does not automatically follow that I'm wrong. I'm entitled to my opinion as well.