Idea that maxstate and I had

[UDM]

We're just discussing on MSN bout this idea that we have

 

Basically, holding the secondary mouse button for all weapons except explosives and the disruptor will cause a zoom-in effect that's similar to cg_fov 50. There are many benefits to this. Firstly, it increases aiming accuracy and reduces spread of bullets on weapons like the E11 and clonerifle. Secondly, using this prevents your weapon from being force pulled out, although you still can be pulled on to the ground. However, while in a jet pack, you are invulnerable to force pull (force push still can hurl you away). Thirdly, you lose less DP when you're hit

 

However, the downside to using Aim mode is that you can only walk. On a jet pack, it is very inconvenient to maneuver about as your movement would be very slow. It's like a temporary invulnerability thingy, but comes at a high cost. However, without Aim mode, you're practically dead when you face off with an enemy. This makes the game more tactical - you cannot rush into combat like before, but at the same time it doesn't completely isolate Q3ish gamers

 

On the issue of hybrids that Max and I also discussed, we felt that the best way to limit hybrids is to prevent the use of force powers when the player uses heavy guns. This includes everything except melee and pistols. Basically, yup hybrids still get the best of both worlds, but it also means that they cannot use both sides' strenghts at the same time. It's either one or the other.

 

Also, I'll be glad to supply weapon models since I've just installed Lightwave. Just need time to pick up the skill again, as it's been quite some time since I last modeled. With new weapon models, we can actually give different weapons individual stats that make them unique from one another. For example, both the E11 and clonetrooper rifles are...rifles, but the E11 fires slower yet more accurately. The clonetrooper is a man eater, but it's inaccurate at long range. Stuff like that ya know

 

On the sidenote, I propose that the secondary fire mode be scrapped completely, and replace it with aim mode. Firstly, little work has been done by razor in tweaking weapons' sec fire mode (I think), thus not much work gone down the drain. Secondly, for the most part, the secondary fire mode is useless. Except for the bowcaster, which I think should have the pri fire replaced with the sec fire, all other weapons have a useless sec fire mode. Cmon, admit it, the pistol's sec fire is a joke. The clonerifle's sec fire is more powerful than a rocket launcher. And what's up with steel balls coming out from the flechette?

[Maxstate]

I think this is the solution to our Quake 3 problem, personally.

 

Yes.

 

YES REALLY1111!!!1

[madcatmach2]

The clone rifle's sec fire is more powerful than a rocket launcher.

but i think its still essential to the merc it allows them to knock down the Jedi and the finish them off with bullets in the sake of balancing it i say we should give it a descent sized cool down time and make it so that it just massively drains the ammo making them think when and where they fire it, I agree its over powered now but i feel its essential to them

 

also when are we going to make the disrupter un-dodge a bull

[bjusterbaarlik]

Yes, this is what makes the more recent FPS's great. The iron sights mode. This should definitely be implemented in the game. You should also add that your accuracy with iron sights increases when crouching, this will bring the crouching and peaking around corners to OJP, which will make being a gunner better than before.

 

While hanging in the air with a jetpack, you should still be able to use the aiming mode, but while doing that, you should be unable to move around, just float there.

 

The idea for the hybrids sounds good too. However, I still think they should only be able to get level 1 for each power they pick. Perhaps they should also be prohibited from taking the specific light/dark side powers, since only real jedi/sith had them in the movies anyways.

[UDM]

but i think its still essential to the merc it allows them to knock down the Jedi and the finish them off with bullets in the sake of balancing it i say we should give it a descent sized cool down time and make it so that it just massively drains the ammo making them think when and where they fire it, I agree its over powered now but i feel its essential to them

 

also when are we going to make the disrupter un-dodge a bull

The problem with that is that it becomes a routine for gunners then. It should require skill to kill a Jedi, and not just bomb > shoot > Jedi dies > repeat > wash up. It's difficult to tweak the cooldown time to perfection too. Make it cooldown too slow and the blob is still useless anyway. Make it too fast and you essentially nerfed Jedi

 

Like bjuster said, that's what makes other FPSes great, and I'm sure it'll make OJP great too

 

However, I disagree with letting hybrids pick level 1 powers only. They should be given the freedom to choose up to level 3

[Maxstate]

Sure, but they can only use them in melee mode or with a saber out. I think that seems very fair. Passive powers like Absorb and Jump should be allowed though.

[razorace]

We could make it so that pistols can use offensive/defensive Force powers, "light" weapons (bowcaster/e11) can use defensive powers, and then have "heavy" weapons have no powers at all.

[Lathain Valtiel]

Ewww, a dedicated aiming mode that's basically required for... anything? No thanks. My ability to aim a scope is terrible, this would murder in cold blood any entertainment this mod had for me. Yeesh, I know everybody here I've played against I can rip apart, but come now. And I use both primaries and secondaries on my weaponry, thank you.

 

I don't particularly care about the active forces such as push/pull being iced when carrying heavy weapons since I practically never use them...

[JRHockney*]

I'm liking all these ideas. The aim thing is great. I kind of like Razors take on the lighter weapons unless anybody can think of balance issues.

 

Although, I do think the flame thrower should count as a heavy weapon when it is being used since it is an item with HUGE damage potential for jedi.

[Lathain Valtiel]

...Except it's not a heavy weapon, it's a wrist-mounted flamethrower. Don't go making totally arbitrary placements into categories or they lose their meaning, and worse yet stink of whine.

[JRHockney*]

...Except it's not a heavy weapon, it's a wrist-mounted flamethrower. Don't go making totally arbitrary placements into categories or they lose their meaning, and worse yet stink of whine.

 

Um..stink of whine? LOL The problem is, certain Hybrid class combos are so overpowered I can ice pretty much anybody with them and I suck with guns. Well, if not heavy weapon at least a light one, but it "acts" like a heavy weapon none the less. Having a ball of flame in front you would make it pretty hard to use offensive force powers anyways.

 

However, while these are good ideas, I do still see the problem of meleers using forcepowers in combinations with flamethrower. All they need is jump 3 or jetpack, absorb 3, and any offensive force power and they will be nearly impossible for jedis to kill since offensive force powers can stop saber swings (Of course if we make that overridable it will be more balanced, just annoying).

 

Also, about jetpack, since its a pretty easy escape for anybody with absorb 3, how about making different levels for it? Level 1: either fuel goes down Extremely fast, or you can only use it in short bursts (more as a jumping assitant for gunners). Level 2: slower fuel drain or longer bursts. Level 3, the way it is now.

[Maxstate]

Less realism and gunner fanboyism, more balance.

[razorace]

Well, I don't think we're going to be able to disable Force Powers whenever a player HAS a flamethrower.

 

However, I can totally understand them not being able to use the Force while actively using the flamer. In addition, they wouldn't be allowed to use the flamer while knocked over. That alone should make it balanced since the Jedi can just push/pull/zap/etc the flamer when they attempt it.

 

Ewww, a dedicated aiming mode that's basically required for... anything? No thanks. My ability to aim a scope is terrible, this would murder in cold blood any entertainment this mod had for me. Yeesh, I know everybody here I've played against I can rip apart, but come now. And I use both primaries and secondaries on my weaponry, thank you.

I think the idea is of a un-scoped slight zoom-in vs an actual scoped view. The idea being that this zoom-in is due to the gunner focusing on his shot.

[UDM]

I was playing co-op yesterday as a pure gunner. All I can say is, playing carefully and tactfully rather than rushing in head on was certainly more fun

 

As it is right now, there has to be a solution on the impact of stunning force powers such as pull and lightning on gunners. Me thinks the best way is to have an "invulnerability" function (aim mode) that actually stops gunners from completely being eviscerated by pull and lightning. However, this is not an exploitable function. Gunners can only walk, and as such they're still left mostly vulnerable. They can't hold down the Aim mode button all the time, or they'll still get wiped out easily.

 

What about Force Absorb then? Yeah Force Absorb still works as per normal - it is able to protect the gunners when they are not in Aim mode, up to a certain extent

 

IMHO the benefits of Aim mode is a double edged sword - it offers a fairly balanced trade off for the secondary fire function. On one hand, now weapons fire more accurately, and you get to hold on to your weapons in the presence of Force Pull. Yet at the same time, you must learn to attack your enemy cautiously

 

Like razorace said, it's not really aiming with iron sights, it's merely dropping FOV down a few notches to create a zoom in effect. You just see less around you, but it still works the same as before

[Lathain Valtiel]

Fine, but don't penalize the people such as the hybrids who know what they're doing by basoically forcing them to use your attack mode. I love my secondaries.

[ensiform]

Well in SP+CoOp the NPCs rape gunners pretty much because of their push.

[Maxstate]

Gunners can still get Absorb which should maybe become a universal skill. Otherwise, we can make a gunner variation of it by using the aforementioned ysalimiri idea. Much like shadowtroopers had those crystals embedded into their armor to tone down lightsaber damage, the ysalimiri skill could (theoretically, and just for ****s) layer your armor with ground ysalimiri :pacman:

[razorace]

As it is right now, there has to be a solution on the impact of stunning force powers such as pull and lightning on gunners. Me thinks the best way is to have an "invulnerability" function (aim mode) that actually stops gunners from completely being eviscerated by pull and lightning. However, this is not an exploitable function. Gunners can only walk, and as such they're still left mostly vulnerable. They can't hold down the Aim mode button all the time, or they'll still get wiped out easily.

I can understand this preventing weapon pull, but I don't think this should apply to lightning. Right now, I think I might be able to retool lightning a bit to make it only knock a player down if they've been hit by lightning for a few seconds. I hope that will fix most of the problems with lightning spamming.

Gunners can still get Absorb which should maybe become a universal skill. Otherwise, we can make a gunner variation of it by using the aforementioned ysalimiri idea

Could someone please bug ticket the ysalimiri idea?

[JRHockney*]

How would the ysalimiri idea work again? Is it just based on armor or what? As long as jedi can still get through it with out too many problems, I'm for it. If not, we could be facing more balance issues just like with absorb.

 

In case there's not an official idea on how this works balance wise here's a few of my own:

 

1. Maybe have it work like cloak were it has a meter and has to recharge or something?

 

2. Or maybe it goes down with your armor as you take any hit even as you dodge (like you got grazed because you move slower in armor)?

[razorace]

I think it would just be like the ysalimiri are in the books, no force powers in or out. So, basically this should just limit the fighter to gunner powers.

[JRHockney*]

I think it would just be like the ysalimiri are in the books, no force powers in or out. So, basically this should just limit the fighter to gunner powers.

 

Well, my issue with this is "when are force powers EVER going to be used?!" Everybody and their moms are just going to get absorb or ysalimiri as soon as they possibly can. If jedi can't use forcepowers against anybody, whats the point of even getting them aside from speed and lightning (which will probably be changed eventually since its too powerful)?

 

No, there needs to be a time and a place aside from when players just first start when this ysalimiri cannot be used. Heck even absorb should technically have limits for the same reasons. Otherwise, we're going to have alot of pure jedi fanatically swinging and speeding around because they can't do anything else.

[UDM]

Eh? Are you forgetting that game I had with Tanqexe? It was impossible for me (pure gunner) to kill him. All he had to do was force pull, lightning, then I was dead

[JRHockney*]

Eh? Are you forgetting that game I had with Tanqexe? It was impossible for me (pure gunner) to kill him. All he had to do was force pull, lightning, then I was dead

 

Yeah, but that was back before we added the gunner improvements and even still, does that mean jedi can just NEVER use force powers against gunners? Thats what will happen if we add ysalimiri this way. Even if we make that 8 points, it will be the first thing they spend points on. There MUST be some vulnerabilities or playing as jedi will be boring as heck.

[razorace]

I think the Y could be the most expensive item in the game. In addition, we could probably make the Y have level different levels of protection vs Force Powers. IE, Level 1 Y would block level 1 powers, etc.

[JRHockney*]

I think the Y could be the most expensive item in the game. In addition, we could probably make the Y have level different levels of protection vs Force Powers. IE, Level 1 Y would block level 1 powers, etc.

 

I suppose, but your going to have to ask UDM or someone to make higher point force bubbles if we're talking most expensive. Also, I think there should be a way of losing it in a particular life so that High level Jedis versus high level gunners can still have a way to use force powers once in a while. Maybe have it break or get dropped or something if the gunners lose all their dodge?