Connection between Exile and Nihilus [Possible TSL spoiler]

[SilentScope001]

I wonder why no one's mentioned Zayne Carrick yet.

 

Shhh....I want to be suprised in case that other comic book theory comes true.

[The Architect]

Or another theory is… Jediphile is Jim (Darth) Ward, the guy from LucasArts!

 

He’s made a lot of articulate pro-Obsidian/stuff you LA posts on this forum and the Obsidian forum back in the day in regards to the cut content incident most of us know all too well about… but that’s just his idea of giving us the illusion that he’s not from LA and had nothing to do with the cut content kafuffle!

 

Then, Obsidian is keen to make KotOR III. They have a plot in mind. Jediphile Ward has some guys “on the inside” spying on Obsidian, in an effort to find out their KotOR III plot.

 

Once he finds out the plot Obsidian has in mind, he joins the Obsidian forum disguised as someone who is just a fan of KotOR and TSL, who has many eloquent and interesting things to say about the games.

 

He then proceeds to do a KotOR III plot suggestion and post it on the Obsidian boards… which in actual fact is the plot Obsidian wanted to do! He then bribes a developer to read the plot, and tell his fellow Obsidian workers that their plot has somehow been leaked!

 

They can’t go ahead with the plot they had in mind, because they might get accused of plagiarizing. So when LA asks them “Are you ready to begin developing KotOR III?” Obsidian says no. They tell LA the bad news, and have to come up with a new plot again before they begin developing the game.

 

So KotOR III is delayed. Behind the scenes Jediphile Ward is laughing like Palpatine. You see, he doesn’t want KotOR III to be made. But instead of telling the fans straight up that KotOR III won’t be made… he wants to make the fans suffer, by making them go through years of this torment “We’re in talks with Obsidian to do KotOR III.”

 

In reality, every time Obsidian comes up with a new plot… it will be leaked to the public, and KotOR III will be “delayed” until the point where LA comes out… in Christmas 2013 and says “We regret to announce that KotOR III has been cancelled. It will not be made. Sorry.”

 

It all began back in an anonymous time in 2004, where months into the development of KotOR II: TSL, Jediphile Ward was turned to the dark side. You see, when he played KotOR for the first time sometime in 04… he heard Malak laugh, and it made him go insane, and then he became evil and… decided to break the hearts of thousands of TSL fans by deliberately cutting two months from Obsidian’s development schedule so that it would screw up the latter stages of the game.

 

Sound reasonable?

 

This is all a joke, of course. That's why there's a lol smiley.

 

On topic: terrific theory that is.

[Master Dakari]

So Kavar sparred with the exile, but they were never master and padawan, even though Kavar did consider it.

 

Thank you for posting that, Jediphile. I was about to say the same thing.

 

Since Master Kavar was a Guardian Jedi Master (making him a Weapon/Warrior Master), it is feasible to consider that he might have been a lightsaber instructor at either the Jedi Enclave on Dantooine or the Jedi Temple on Coruscant. But, that's just speculation.

 

By the way, on topic, I absolutely love you theory. I was considering much of the same thing, but there are points that you have highlighted that I haven't thought of before... but they fit like perfect pieces to the greater puzzle. And considering the fact that many key members who worked on Planescape: Torment also worked on The Sith Lords, I have no doubt that this theory was their original intention with Darth Nihilus and our favorite heroine, the Jedi Exile.

[Jediphile]

Or another theory is… Jediphile is Jim (Darth) Ward, the guy from LucasArts!

 

He’s made a lot of articulate pro-Obsidian/stuff you LA posts on this forum and the Obsidian forum back in the day in regards to the cut content incident most of us know all too well about… but that’s just his idea of giving us the illusion that he’s not from LA and had nothing to do with the cut content kafuffle!

 

Given how critical I have been of LA for rushing TSL since its release, I think I present that as proof enough of my innocence. Oh, and I do deny being an employee or associated with Lucasarts in any way and form

 

So KotOR III is delayed. Behind the scenes Jediphile Ward is laughing like Palpatine. You see, he doesn’t want KotOR III to be made. But instead of telling the fans straight up that KotOR III won’t be made… he wants to make the fans suffer, by making them go through years of this torment “We’re in talks with Obsidian to do KotOR III.”

 

In reality, every time Obsidian comes up with a new plot… it will be leaked to the public, and KotOR III will be “delayed” until the point where LA comes out… in Christmas 2013 and says “We regret to announce that KotOR III has been cancelled. It will not be made. Sorry.”

 

It all began back in an anonymous time in 2004, where months into the development of KotOR II: TSL, Jediphile Ward was turned to the dark side. You see, when he played KotOR for the first time sometime in 04… he heard Malak laugh, and it made him go insane, and then he became evil and… decided to break the hearts of thousands of TSL fans by deliberately cutting two months from Obsidian’s development schedule so that it would screw up the latter stages of the game.

 

[SilentScope001]

Or another theory is… Jediphile is Jim (Darth) Ward, the guy from LucasArts!

 

(snip)

 

Alternatively, he may still be on the Light Side, but promoting false theories that make a lot of sense so that people will be shocked.

 

I remember K2 rumors about The Exile helping Revan locate the Star Forge, hence why he was Exiled...and of Darth Nihilus actually being Vrook. Did you cause them Jediphile?

[Char Ell]

I too think Jediphile's theory on the relationship between the Exile and Darth Nihilus is well-founded. I'm not too sure about the Exile's "dark essence" taking over another body though at the moment there doesn't seem to be any other viable explanation.

 

What I wonder about now though is whether or not LucasArts wants to continue with the theme Obsidian started on with the Exile. Looking at this from a holistic perspective the concepts of a wound in the Force and a Jedi having their dark essence split off and take over another body are new to the SW universe are they not? From things I've read it seems to me that there hasn't been a lot of thought given to the future of the KotOR franchise in the past. BioWare created the first game as a standalone without any real plans for a sequel. Obsidian took over and had to come up with a story. If LucasArts does indeed intend to make KotOR a lasting franchise then I do hope they're putting together a long-term plan for where they want to go with the series.

[Darca Lar]

What about Kreia's comments about Nihilus "no longer a man" or whatever it is she said?

[Jediphile]

What about Kreia's comments about Nihilus "no longer a man" or whatever it is she said?

 

What about it?

[Darca Lar]

Do you think she's saying Nihilus 'used' to be human? If so, then your whole theory is thrown into question.

[Jediphile]

Do you think she's saying Nihilus 'used' to be human? If so, then your whole theory is thrown into question.

 

Yes and no. Nihilus' body used to be human. More than that, I suspect this body may have belonged to the exile's master, because that would make for a strong force bond. Basically, when the exile's master died on Malachor V, the "dark echo" that the exile rejected went to this master and survived in his body. In a sense, it animated his body and used it as a host.

 

Isn't it odd that as much as the game focuses on the force bond between master and padawan, we never learn who the exile's master was before Malachor V?

 

Also, we know whoever Nihilus was, he was at Malachor V during that battle. Yet when he is killed, the exile tells Visas to get his mask, then asks her what she saw. Well, why doesn't the exile just look for himself? Unlike Visas, he might actually KNOW this person, since they both fought at Malachor V, so, what, he couldn't even be bothered to take a look? Why? I think it's because the exile already knew what he would see and feared it. And so he fled from the truth yet again.

[Ztalker]

"No longer man"

 

Of course he's no longer human..he vaporises in a cloud of dark energy, which, to my best knowledge, isn't the normal way humans die.

And, if he's connected to the Exile, like in the theory, it could be an indirect comment on the Exile her/himself, since he/she's no longer 'human' as well, like Kreia states with her 'You are unique, the Galaxy isn't ready for you yet' -speech

[Lord Spitfire]

Yes and no. Nihilus' body used to be human. More than that, I suspect this body may have belonged to the exile's master, because that would make for a strong force bond. Basically, when the exile's master died on Malachor V, the "dark echo" that the exile rejected went to this master and survived in his body. In a sense, it animated his body and used it as a host.

 

Isn't it odd that as much as the game focuses on the force bond between master and padawan, we never learn who the exile's master was before Malachor V?

 

Also, we know whoever Nihilus was, he was at Malachor V during that battle. Yet when he is killed, the exile tells Visas to get his mask, then asks her what she saw. Well, why doesn't the exile just look for himself? Unlike Visas, he might actually KNOW this person, since they both fought at Malachor V, so, what, he couldn't even be bothered to take a look? Why? I think it's because the exile already knew what he would see and feared it. And so he fled from the truth yet again.

 

For the first part . . . that would be impossible, since it was confirmed in the game that Master Kavar was Exile's master.

 

As for the last paragraph, I agree with you. I think it would be cool (but extremely creepy) that - after Visas took Nihilus's mask off - Nihilus would get up, pull back his hood, and show the DS version of the Exile (since I agreed with everything else you said.

[Ztalker]

Originally Posted by Lord Spitfire

For the first part . . . that would be impossible, since it was confirmed in the game that Master Kavar was Exile's master.

 

Ehm...

 

Originally Posted by Jediphile

"You always had deep connections to the Force. I am glad to see that it is once again your ally. When I first sparred with you during your training as a Padawan, I could tell that you were different.

*Snipped some stuff*

Did you know that when I was training you I considered making you my Padawan? I didn't. The demands of the Jedi Council were too great."

 

So Kavar sparred with the exile, but they were never master and padawan, even though Kavar did consider it.

 

The magic of reading a thread before posting

[Lord Spitfire]

Kreia Immitation: Ah, yes, a strong magic indeed.

 

But I still think that maybe Atris was the Exile's master, if not Kavar. It would explain why she would have feelings for him if he was male.

 

But have considered what I said about the Exile taking off Nihilus's mask and seeing a DS version of himself/herself (if LS) or just seeing himself or herself (If DS)? Man, I'm going to have nightmares with that thought!

 

Nihilus: ;lkasdjoiwehjr;lkdjsf;laeishtlsafj (Subtitles; Exile, I am you!)

 

Exile: No! It's not true!

 

Nihilus: dhjsafiwuerhydfhjkaesrywiuefhwlaeiryh (Subtitles: You know it is true. I am your Dark Side counterpart! Look at my face!)

 

Exile: *looks at Nihilus's face* AHHHHHHHHHH! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[Jediphile]

Kreia Immitation: Ah, yes, a strong magic indeed.

 

But I still think that maybe Atris was the Exile's master, if not Kavar. It would explain why she would have feelings for him if he was male.

 

It's possible, I suppose. But it's never stated in the game, so it would never be more than speculation based on what we know so far, and frankly I doubt they were master and apprentice - while Atris either loves (male) or admires (female) the exile depending on gender, the exile doesn't seem to have an particular feelings towards Atris, which would be unusual for an apprentice.

 

Besides, Vrook mentions in the holorecorded discussion with Vandar that the exile's master refuses to discipline him/her - that sure doesn't sound much like Atris to me...

 

But have considered what I said about the Exile taking off Nihilus's mask and seeing a DS version of himself/herself (if LS) or just seeing himself or herself (If DS)? Man, I'm going to have nightmares with that thought!

 

Nihilus: ;lkasdjoiwehjr;lkdjsf;laeishtlsafj (Subtitles; Exile, I am you!)

 

Exile: No! It's not true!

 

Nihilus: dhjsafiwuerhydfhjkaesrywiuefhwlaeiryh (Subtitles: You know it is true. I am your Dark Side counterpart! Look at my face!)

 

Exile: *looks at Nihilus's face* AHHHHHHHHHH! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

 

[Jediphile smiles evilly to himself...]

 

EDIT: Oh, and thanks, Ztalker, for quoting what I said earlier, since it saves me the trouble.

[Darca Lar]

But you can't confirm that Nihilus was indeed Exile's master, right? Can you even prove that Exile's master was even part of the War?

[Jediphile]

But you can't confirm that Nihilus was indeed Exile's master, right? Can you even prove that Exile's master was even part of the War?

 

No and no. That can only be speculation, since the only time the exile's master is ever mentioned is in the holorecorded discussion between Vrook and Vandar.

[Master Dakari]

But I still think that maybe Atris was the Exile's master, if not Kavar. It would explain why she would have feelings for him if he was male.

 

No. Atris might have been a Jedi Master, but she never trained a Padawan.

 

Exile: Atris has never trained a Padawan, and she will pass her ignorance on to others.

 

or

 

Exile: Atris knows nothing of training Jedi.

 

These are two options that the Jedi Exile can tell the Handmaidens in their discussions after her first encounter with Atris on Telos.

 

And as discussed earlier, Kavar was not the Exile's master. With what we've been given, we do not know who the Exile's master was.

[Quanon]

Still one thing bugs me a bit about this . Kreia not knowing ?

Really , Kreia planned about much as everything that is happening around the Exile , wouldn't she had notice something about Nihilus since she "trained" him .

 

And we don't know how long they where on Mal-V .

 

But then again , this might prove your theory aswell .

If Kreia sensed something "weird" about Nihilus and used that "feeling" to find her tool for revenge : the Exile .

 

She admid's at the end of the game aswell that she finannly understands .

This might aswell include this relationship between Nihilus and the Exile .

 

Anyway , it makes we wonder what obsidian would have done if they had the change to finish their game . This could have been a one of their plots they dropped .

 

So for wich game are you working now Jediphile ? Writing plots to amaze the unwarry masses ?

[Jediphile]

Still one thing bugs me a bit about this . Kreia not knowing ?

Really , Kreia planned about much as everything that is happening around the Exile , wouldn't she had notice something about Nihilus since she "trained" him .

 

Who says that Kreia doesn't know? I certainly don't...

 

And we don't know how long they where on Mal-V .

 

Not exactly, no, but it seems to me that it was after the Battle of Malachor V in 3960 BBY. Though how much they spent there until the planet was (canonically) destroyed in 3951 BBY is unknown. I guess it could have been all nine years - I certainly think it was for Nihilus - but there are references to Darth Revan using it as a base himself, so it might not have been until Revan was captured and reprogrammed by the jedi council in 3957 BBY. That would still give them up to six years, though.

 

But then again , this might prove your theory aswell .

If Kreia sensed something "weird" about Nihilus and used that "feeling" to find her tool for revenge : the Exile .

 

She admid's at the end of the game aswell that she finannly understands .

This might aswell include this relationship between Nihilus and the Exile .

 

It might, although I suspect she knew all along. I've always found it a little too convenient that she just "happened" find the only being in the universe that could undo Nihilus just before Sion managed to hunt down and kill that being (the exile). I think Kreia knew the exile could destroy Nihilus with his special ability (wound in the force) even then. Whether she was aware of the special connection that I muse about here is uncertain, but frankly I wouldn't be surprised. Kreia ALWAYS knows more than she says!

 

Anyway , it makes we wonder what obsidian would have done if they had the change to finish their game . This could have been a one of their plots they dropped .

 

I doubt this was ever intended to be revealed in TSL, but it might have been planned as a revelation in KotOR3. The connection between exile and Nihilus is being pointed to in several places, yet I've never seen cut content that sheds more light on it, let alone tells us who Nihilus really was.

 

So for wich game are you working now Jediphile ? Writing plots to amaze the unwarry masses ?

 

Ha! I wish...

[Ztalker]

...or he's now looking for ideas for a Kotor 2 fan-fic that will dominate the Entertainment Center forever! Oh noes!

 

Right...to the point:

Found several quotes, that could be....indirect links to the theory as well. Sometimes they're nothing more then little puns or insults, but when interprented otherwise, they support the theory:

 

"To have fallen so far and learned nothing - that is your failing."

Kreai to Darth Sion. If she's talking about the Exile and Nihlus here (remember; Nihilus and Sion still work together at this point), she might mean that she has found a new 'weapon' something that will destroy Sion and Nihilus. 'you have learned nothing' might mean Sion hasn't learned about the Exile yet, which will be his downfall, thus his 'failing.'

 

"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal."

Obvious: Exile is canonically LS, and Nihilus DS; a contrast. And we see this in the game, when the Exile becomes stronger after beating Nihilus.

 

"Our path brought us here for a reason..." (When landing on Telos)

Obviously again; Nihilus will attack Telos. If they would have landed on, for example, Tatooine, they might not have found out about the Jedi on Telos, Nihilus and the rest.

 

"The Jedi Academy on Dantooine is nothing more than a crater that echoes with the ghosts of dead Jedi. And the Jedi Temple on Coruscant lies empty. The waters in the Room of a Thousand Fountains have fallen still, in reverence to the fallen Jedi... and those now lost."

Wait...many have fallen...but who are/is the Jedi that are lost? Link to Exile/Nihilus?

 

"Know that much may happen here, but above all, do not forget this—you may trust in me. We cradle each other's lives, and what threatens one of us, threatens us both. And if you find you cannot trust me, trust in your training. Trust in yourself. Never doubt what you have done. All your decisions have brought you to this point."

Wait...she betrays the whole party, and the Exile is left with his training; the training build around his wound. And he uses that to beat Nihilus...hmm...

 

To conclude: Just read through Kreia's dialogue, and you'll find much, if not all quotes supporting this theory.

Go on, very interesting discussion

 

PS: Jediphile, (Jim) any news on the Neverwinter Nights 2 expansion?

[SilentScope001]

"The Jedi Academy on Dantooine is nothing more than a crater that echoes with the ghosts of dead Jedi. And the Jedi Temple on Coruscant lies empty. The waters in the Room of a Thousand Fountains have fallen still, in reverence to the fallen Jedi... and those now lost."

 

That quote refers to the Lost Jedi, which are: Bao-Dur, Mira, Atton, Handmadien, Disciple, and Visas. These people are going to form a brand new Jedi Order.

 

The Exile is not one of the Lost Jedi, and that is important. "You are not Jedi/Sith, not truly. And that is why I choose you."

[Jediphile]

Another thing that only just occurred to me based on the discussion on whether Nihilus or Revan would win a fight...

 

Nihilus sensed the masters on Katarr and was drawn to them, which fits with Kreia telling us that he is drawn to powerful forceusers. Now, Nihilus also senses the exile early in the plot, but it just occurred to me that there's a problem there... Because how can Nihilus sense the exile, when the exile has no force bond?!?

 

Indeed, we could argue that the reason you cannot choose your party when you attack Nihilus is because of force bonds. Visas can "slip in" as Nihilus' apprentice, while Mandalore clearly has no force powers. But what the exile? Shouldn't Nihilus be able to sense him and be drawn to him? I should think so, since he has grown in power, yet the exile becoming more powerful (by gaining levels of experience) is not a factor to Nihilus, only his alignment seems to be. why? Okay, so the answer would seem to be obvious in that the exile has no force bond of his own, and so Nihilus cannot sense him. But if that's the case, then how can Nihilus sense him through the force early in the game, when he sends out Visas to find the exile? The only reason I can think of is that by embracing an extreme philosophy - be it LS or DS - the exile is finally moving away from his status of apathy, which caused the problem in the first place.

[Quanon]

Hmm , not sure if what Kreia says is the whole truth . I"m very sure she knew about the Exile's superbonding . But Sion stay's an outright threath .

 

If Sion had killed the Exile would Nihilus survive ? Since he is a piece of the Exile , would that be the same connection as the Exile formed with Kreia ? Then again Sion would win , so I don't think he ponders about that ... or Kreia and Sion played together , since Sion easly returns to Krieas bidding .

 

And I"m sure Kreia was powerfull enough to stop the Exile from sucking himself up like a leech to her . Its a strange game she plays , maybe she had some other plans aswell , besides killing the Force .

 

She was one of Revan's masters ... what does she know about Revan , that she wouldn't tell us . Being on Mal V she could have easly visited the unkown regions ...

 

Darn that wicth

This theory gives more questions then anwsers

[SilentScope001]

Shouldn't Nihilus be able to sense him and be drawn to him? I should think so, since he has grown in power, yet the exile becoming more powerful (by gaining levels of experience) is not a factor to Nihilus, only his alignment seems to be. why?

 

Incorrect. If you remain a Grey Jedi, Nihilus will sense you eventually. When you get a certain number of alignment points, then Nihilus sense you. So, if you get 50 LS points and then 50 DS Points, you can remain totally Grey but Nihilus finally figure out you exist, while you still remain apatehic. In fact, if you get no alignment points, by the time you complete 3 out of the 4 planets where you find the Jedi Masters, Nihilus automatically sense you and send off Visas.

 

I interpet it as saying Nihilus sense you because of your rising power, due to how much Force you are sucking up in order to fuel you. The silly developers want to have it be varied so that you see Nihilus in different times, so they had it triggered to occur in these sort of situations. I don't think this case would help you much, and it might be best to toss this evidence.

 

Jediphile, you already got enough evidence to support you. You don't need to pile more upon it. Just take a rest, and focus on something more important, like how Kreia is going to return as a Force Ghost.