Connection between Exile and Nihilus [Possible TSL spoiler]

[Jediphile]

1.Wasnt Bao-dur on Malachor V with the exile? If so, why didnt he meet any of the 3 options.

 

He was not a jedi or sith. He was force-sensitive, of course, but that is not enough, it would seem. Given how he talks of celebreting the death of the Mandalorians they killed, the potential of lure by the dark side is clearly there, yet he still decided to stand up to Czerka on Telos. I suppose we could say that he was affected and took the darker road, but on a far lesser scale since he did not feel the force at the time. His more or less self-imposed exile and subsequent quest to fight Czerka was his redemption. Personally, I feel this is why he mirrors the exile and is far closer to him/her during the course of the game. YMMV.

 

2. Bao-dur couldnt have possibly created the MSG or the Repuiblic would have won a long time ago by creating dozens of them for use against the Mandolorians, there must have been some ancient artifact on the planet, perhaps an Infinite Empire or True Sith weapon? Maybe I'm missing something

 

According to the game and all sources I've seen, the MSG was indeed created by Bao-Dur. That doesn't need to mean that he created all the technology, however, just that he thought of a way to combine existing technology in a way that had massive destructive effect. But we know very little about the MSG, actually. In that sense, it's a "McGuffin" in the true sense of the word...

 

3. Ok this question I'm probably completely going the wrong way, I just remembered the scene and cant remember the dialogue. -- On the temple on Korriban you encounter a memory where you have to clear mines for rpublic troops then you see them fight mandos. Was this memory from Malachor or another planet?

 

It would seem highly unlikely to me for it to be Korriban, since the Mandalorians are forbidden to set foot on the planet. IIRC, it was actually on Dxun, judging from what I can see in the dialog.tlk about the encounter. Not certain about that, though.

[BanthaFodder01]

Ahh thanks for clearing that up for me. I've played KOTOR II about 4 times and was never able to get them to tell my about the purge of anyone who didnt join Revan so im cloudy on that subject. But just to be clear, your saying that Bao-dur at the time at the battle of Malachor was just a regular soldier who joined Revan at the end thus not being killed, but later went off to sabotage Czerka?

[Jediphile]

Ahh thanks for clearing that up for me. I've played KOTOR II about 4 times and was never able to get them to tell my about the purge of anyone who didnt join Revan so im cloudy on that subject. But just to be clear, your saying that Bao-dur at the time at the battle of Malachor was just a regular soldier who joined Revan at the end thus not being killed, but later went off to sabotage Czerka?

 

Pretty much, though I would scarcely call Bao-Dur a regular soldier. He was an engineer, and his skills were certainly used as such, even though he seems to have joined as a regular soldier.

 

He was certainly affected by the choice Revan put to the jedi and describes in details to the exile how he felt he lost control of himself with battle fury, which is as close to being seduced by the dark side as non-jedi seem able to become. As Carth would point out, Revan and Malak had the excuse of being lured by the dark side, but not the soldiers who followed them after their fall. Carth refers to Saul Karath, of course, but naturally it applies to Bao-Dur as well, and even underscores Carth's point, since Bao-Dur was able to free himself from those dark emotions without someone to "return him to the light".

 

Consider the following, which can Bao-Dur can say during the game...

 

Bao-Dur: ".Why did you decide to fight?The war went poorly before Revan and the Jedi lent aid to the Republic. Many of us believed the Jedi to be cowards who were afraid to face the Mandalorian threat.I felt the same way. I remembered when word of the Mandalorian attacks arrived on Iridonia.My people had colonies across the Outer Rim. Many of them were among the first systems to fall.Revenge, and to crush the Mandalorians - to send them back to wherever it was they came from.{"Mercy" is said ruefully}I did not join because I wanted to protect, though. I hated them. I wanted to destroy them - to give them the mercy they gave the people they conquered.I remember the thrill I felt when we fought them in battle. Victories were rare, but we celebrated every Mandalorian's death.Do you know how it felt?It's always on my mind, now. That loss of control blinded me, turned me into a weapon.{Apologetic}I... just needed to get that off my chest.I couldn't do that. It was almost as though the battle took control of me, drove me forward.{Off of Telos}General. Need something?I moved around for a couple years. Working as a starship mechanic got me from place to place. I wasn't ready to settle down after the war.{Very serious}As long as I kept moving, I didn't have to think about what happened. Know what I mean?Mostly, I was angry. Angry about what I had done, about why I had done it.{Accusing}Maybe if I had the Force to lean on, I could have worked it out. But then the Force didn't seem to be of much help to others.I was, no doubt. It's hard to face up to yourself sometimes, and for a few years, I couldn't.{Sincere}I'm sure you do.I decided I'd do something constructive. I wanted to make up for the things I'd done in the war.I wanted to design planetary shields, but there weren't many systems with the credits to spare - there was more that needed to be rebuilt than protected.I found out that Telos was going to be the flagship project for the Republic, and it sounded like something good. I saw Telos before the Sith razed it. It deserved a better fate.{Anger}But Czerka ruined everything. I thought I could force Czerka out on my own, but I guess I can't fix everything myself."

[Darca Lar]

Actually, what Avellone said was this:

 

"Nihilus’ exact identity is never specified in K2 - I had a specific origin in mind, but not a name, if that makes sense, and what I say hear is not canon: He was created when Malachor V was torn apart, and he was intended as the Exile’s other half, one that took a more self-destructive path rather than denying the Force during that battle that ended the Mandalorian Wars."

 

 

The way I read it is that it is not canon because it was never stated in the game, not because the idea was nixed by LA or dropped for some other reason. To me it is the same as how Vader was not canonically Luke's father until it was confirmed in ROTJ. Or how Leia was definitely not Luke's sister until ROTJ made her so. So no, it's not canon... yet. But if KotOR3 is ever written, then it certainly could be, especially if Avellone is involved.

 

Okay well that could mean a couple of things: one is yours where he's a part of the Exile, the other could be a metaphorical term meaning, another Jedi who survived but did not cut himself off and was overflowed with all of the screaming echoes in the force, and in the process, was forced to fuse his life force to his armor and lost his physical body. So he was technically dead, but also a force ghost who refused to move on.

[Corinthian]

Actually, Vader being Luke's father became canon in Empire Strikes Back.

[Rev7]

It would seem highly unlikely to me for it to be Korriban

I think that BanthaFodder01 meant that you have a VISION of the Republic troopers in Ludo Kreshh's tomb ON Korriban.

But just to be clear, your saying that Bao-dur at the time at the battle of Malachor was just a regular soldier who joined Revan at the end thus not being killed, but later went off to sabotage Czerka?

I agree with what JediPhile said, but one question arises in my head, If Bao-Dur was a force-sensitive and serving on Revan's side, why wasn't he trained to become a Dark Jedi that Atton talks about when you learn more about him on Nar Shaddar? Thats why Atton left the 'Sith' because he didn't want to become a Dark Jedi. So, how did Bao-Dur seemingly go unnoticed? Anyone able shed any light on this question?

[Jediphile]

Okay well that could mean a couple of things: one is yours where he's a part of the Exile, the other could be a metaphorical term meaning, another Jedi who survived but did not cut himself off and was overflowed with all of the screaming echoes in the force, and in the process, was forced to fuse his life force to his armor and lost his physical body. So he was technically dead, but also a force ghost who refused to move on.

 

I'd agree, but then Kreia makes it very clear that the exile alone was the only one to reach a third option, and the jedi masters tell us that the exile is responsible for the powers that the Sith wielded against them on Katarr, which refers to Nihilus' abilities, since he devastated that world. So I'd speculate it's more of a combination.

 

Actually, Vader being Luke's father became canon in Empire Strikes Back.

 

It was revealed, but it was also uncertain. The speculation about whether Vader was really Luke's father or not could easily match most speculation about K3 or a KotOR MMO on these boards today during the years that passed between ESB and ROTJ. People just didn't know. It wasn't until Yoda confirmed it in ROTJ that it became fact. Until then it was just speculation. Take a look at the comic book stories written in that time - they were falling over themselves to avoid the issue, since only Lucas was allowed to give the answer.

 

I think that BanthaFodder01 meant that you have a VISION of the Republic troopers in Ludo Kreshh's tomb ON Korriban.

 

I know that, but the question is what the vision refers back to. Where did that battle take place? And IIRC, it was on Dxun.

 

I agree with what JediPhile said, but one question arises in my head, If Bao-Dur was a force-sensitive and serving on Revan's side, why wasn't he trained to become a Dark Jedi that Atton talks about when you learn more about him on Nar Shaddar? Thats why Atton left the 'Sith' because he didn't want to become a Dark Jedi. So, how did Bao-Dur seemingly go unnoticed? Anyone able shed any light on this question?

 

Well, they didn't actually notice Atton either. Indeed, it was only the jedi he killed that did, and that's how Atton is able to escape before he was trained to become a dark jedi. Beyond that, I'd assume that being trained in jedi-killing techniques is itself a study into the force as such in that to fight the jedi better, Atton had to understand how jedi think, much as a profiler attempts to understand the mindset of a murderer. But since we're talking about jedi, that also exposes Atton more to force techniques. He was trained in ways to block mind affecting force powers, for example, and if you listen to Atton, he seems to have great insights into how jedi think and act. He had to in order to be a better assassin of jedi.

 

Bao-Dur, by comparison, was a lot more of "simple" soldier, and he wasn't even that to the fullest extent, since we know that they made great use of his skills as an engineer. So he was far less exposed to the force than Atton was, and yet we still know that he was affected too, from what he tells us during the game.

[MJ-W4]

I'd agree, but then Kreia makes it very clear that the exile alone was the only one to reach a third option, and the jedi masters tell us that the exile is responsible for the powers that the Sith wielded against them on Katarr, which refers to Nihilus' abilities, since he devastated that world. So I'd speculate it's more of a combination.

Well it's Kreia saying this. Before I'd trust Kreia as a definite source, I'd first see what scheme she has that this fits into, and make up my mind afterwards.

Also, limting this to the exile kills all spin-offs on the subject.

[Jediphile]

Well it's Kreia saying this. Before I'd trust Kreia as a definite source, I'd first see what scheme she has that this fits into, and make up my mind afterwards.

Also, limting this to the exile kills all spin-offs on the subject.

 

Kreia says it to the comatose LS exile after she has killed the jedi masters. Little reason to lie in that case, as she'll be leaving the exile in any event. Besides, Kreia seems to have this annoying ability to never lie. She bends the truth, sure, she says things that seem to mean one thing, but can be later taken to mean something else. But I don't recall her speaking a clear, confirmable lie during the game.

 

Beyond that, both the jedi masters and HK-47 pretty much support her on that point. It would seem very odd for them all to lie.

 

And spin-offs? No way. The exile is and should remain unique. Sure, Kreia says others will (in the future) stop listening to the force as the exile did, but that only goes some way toward making the exile's choice. You add more people to that list, and the exile stops being a unique person and instead just becomes "yet another force-denier" among many. It's trivial and takes away from the character and from the plot of TSL. I'd hate that.

[Gargoyle King]

And spin-offs? No way. The exile is and should remain unique. Sure, Kreia says others will (in the future) stop listening to the force as the exile did, but that only goes some way toward making the exile's choice. You add more people to that list, and the exile stops being a unique person and instead just becomes "yet another force-denier" among many. It's trivial and takes away from the character and from the plot of TSL. I'd hate that.

I second that, i love the uniqueness of the Exile and shouldn't be trampled by future imitations.

[Darca Lar]

Kreia says it to the comatose LS exile after she has killed the jedi masters. Little reason to lie in that case, as she'll be leaving the exile in any event. Besides, Kreia seems to have this annoying ability to never lie. She bends the truth, sure, she says things that seem to mean one thing, but can be later taken to mean something else. But I don't recall her speaking a clear, confirmable lie during the game.

That's because she's like Palpatine from the Prequel trilogy combined with Ben Kenobi's cryptic tongue!

[MJ-W4]

Originally posted by Myself

Well it's Kreia saying this. Before I'd trust Kreia as a definite source, I'd first see what scheme she has that this fits into, and make up my mind afterwards.

Also, limting this to the exile kills all spin-offs on the subject.

Kreia says it to the comatose LS exile after she has killed the jedi masters. Little reason to lie in that case, as she'll be leaving the exile in any event. Besides, Kreia seems to have this annoying ability to never lie. She bends the truth, sure, she says things that seem to mean one thing, but can be later taken to mean something else. But I don't recall her speaking a clear, confirmable lie during the game.

 

And spin-offs? No way. The exile is and should remain unique. Sure, Kreia says others will (in the future) stop listening to the force as the exile did, but that only goes some way toward making the exile's choice. You add more people to that list, and the exile stops being a unique person and instead just becomes "yet another force-denier" among many. It's trivial and takes away from the character and from the plot of TSL. I'd hate that.

Relax, please. What did I really say? I said, "be careful when taking Kreia for granted." Look before you leap. And who could I mean by 'spin-off?' I deliberately used this term in Kreia's cryptic way: She is a parallel to the Exile herself. When Nihilus and Sion maimed her, they also tore her from the force. Remember that sequence? Kreia was exiled, too, only from the dark side. Like the Exile, Kreia is neither Jedi nor Sith. Both are somewhere inbetween, a point that Kreia makes in her final speech as well. She really was an excellent teacher.

What really makes the Exile unique is that he came to terms with himself and succeeded where all the others failed.

[Jediphile]

Relax, please. What did I really say? I said, "be careful when taking Kreia for granted." Look before you leap. And who could I mean by 'spin-off?' I deliberately used this term in Kreia's cryptic way: She is a parallel to the Exile herself. When Nihilus and Sion maimed her, they also tore her from the force. Remember that sequence? Kreia was exiled, too, only from the dark side. Like the Exile, Kreia is neither Jedi nor Sith. Both are somewhere inbetween, a point that Kreia makes in her final speech as well. She really was an excellent teacher.

What really makes the Exile unique is that he came to terms with himself and succeeded where all the others failed.

 

First, obviously you should never take Kreia simply at her word. If Kreia told me water was wet, I'd check with at least two other people to see if they thought it was true before I believed her. With that in mind, however, Kreia remains a great source of information that it would be foolish to ignore IMHO. "Hear all, trust nothing" are the words of wisdom, where Kreia is concerned.

 

Second, Kreia is cast down and exiled from the Sith by Nihilus and Sion, yes. This does not make her equal to the exile, however. The exile achieved his unique powers by denying the will of the force. That is something Kreia cannot do, which is the major reason why she seeks out the exile in the first place. I'd even speculate that she used Nihilus the same way to attack the will of the force, since he has a similar power as the exile's darker half. When he then cast her out, she went to the origin of his "power of denial" instead.

 

So Kreia was exiled, sure. But she's nothing like the exile otherwise. If she were, the entire plot would be moot. As for the exile being jedi or not, that is the exile's choice to make. While the masters would dismiss the exile as jedi out of fear of his powers and Kreia would discount him as one to lure him to her own cause. Sure, the exile is unusual, but then again, isn't everyone? To me that has always been the content of what either Visas or Disciple tells the exile after Kreia kills the masters and then escapes. The exile decides whether he is jedi or sith or something else. It's not something that can be dictated to him by outside powers, especially not in the case of the exile, who can deny even the will of the force. If the exile wants to be a jedi, then he can be, whether the will of the force decrees it or not.

[MJ-W4]

First, obviously you should never take Kreia simply at her word. If Kreia told me water was wet, I'd check with at least two other people to see if they thought it was true before I believed her. With that in mind, however, Kreia remains a great source of information that it would be foolish to ignore IMHO. "Hear all, trust nothing" are the words of wisdom, where Kreia is concerned.

Seems we agree on that.

Second, Kreia is cast down and exiled from the Sith by Nihilus and Sion, yes. This does not make her equal to the exile, however. The exile achieved his unique powers by denying the will of the force. That is something Kreia cannot do, which is the major reason why she seeks out the exile in the first place. I'd even speculate that she used Nihilus the same way to attack the will of the force, since he has a similar power as the exile's darker half. When he then cast her out, she went to the origin of his "power of denial" instead.

 

So Kreia was exiled, sure. But she's nothing like the exile otherwise. If she were, the entire plot would be moot. As for the exile being jedi or not, that is the exile's choice to make. While the masters would dismiss the exile as jedi out of fear of his powers and Kreia would discount him as one to lure him to her own cause. Sure, the exile is unusual, but then again, isn't everyone? To me that has always been the content of what either Visas or Disciple tells the exile after Kreia kills the masters and then escapes. The exile decides whether he is jedi or sith or something else. It's not something that can be dictated to him by outside powers, especially not in the case of the exile, who can deny even the will of the force. If the exile wants to be a jedi, then he can be, whether the will of the force decrees it or not.

Looking at it that way, I'd tend to agree. My point is that even though the story revolves around the Exile and the decisions (s)he makes, it is also Kreia's story. From her perspective, she feels like the Exile. She has, like the Exile, re-established her connection to the Force, and she sets him/her off to meet his/her destiny. She guides the Exile all the way to the end(?) of the story. Wherever she failed, she wants the Exile to win, like a mother who seeks to live her life again through her child. If the Exile doesn't do as she would like, she'll chide like a concerned mother but she never gives up. If the Exile is male, Sion reflects that notion when he acts like a less favourite son facing the favoured son. (Korriban + Malachor V)

 

I don't like Kreia's schemes and the lack of choices she leaves you in the game, however, I also think she's one of the best-written characters ever.

[Darca Lar]

I agree. Kreia was a really well done, well thought out character. But going back to the topic, IF Nihilus was a shadow or "the other half" of the Exile, then that raises another couple questions about that event. Did Nihilus just form? Did he have a solid, physical appearance at some point? And how was he able to use the force thus as to fuse his, whatever, to some armor I could only assume was from the battlefield?

[MJ-W4]

I agree. Kreia was a really well done, well thought out character. But going back to the topic, IF Nihilus was a shadow or "the other half" of the Exile, then that raises another couple questions about that event. Did Nihilus just form? Did he have a solid, physical appearance at some point? And how was he able to use the force thus as to fuse his, whatever, to some armor I could only assume was from the battlefield?

Right you are, back on topic: An easy explanation I came up with for myself is that Nihilus (latin: nihil = nothing) is something like a DS force ghost. He is an anthropomorphic personification, like Death in some old pictures is portrayed as a skeleton in a cloak and hood. In my explanation to myself, Nihilus has no real ego, he seems like trouble walking. Literally. If he had been somebody once, he should have more of a personality, I think. Maybe he only chose his mask and hood because he thought that's what people (Darth Traya? Nihilus' looks seem to be mocking Darth Traya, when you stand them next to each other) looked like, and since he only had a vague idea from the rift in the Force that caused him to be, he got it quite wrong. Also, he's not very articulate. I mean, he certainly has the means to get some kind of speech device done, but he doesn't seem to have enough personality to care. That's why I think he actually is nobody.

[RobQel-Droma]

^Interesting idea, I never thought of that before. But where did that nothing come from, or why did it personify itself in Nihilus?...

[MJ-W4]

^^ That's where I tend to be a little Einsteinian: When so many people died and ships were destroyed, lots of energy as well as Force-connections were set free and, since the SMG was working right there and then, those loose energies were drawn together and compacted according to m = e/c² (from: e = mc²) along with a very strong Force-connection, thus creating a Force-related, almost humanoid thing. The Force is described as the basis of all life which allows for Nihilus to be a sentient being. The creation of Nihilus was a side-effect of the SMG, creating something out of 'nothing'. 'Nothing' only in a manner of speaking, more like recycling used energies.

[Darca Lar]

Kinda like the Valley of the Jedi? Only opposite...instead of besotwing force energy, it drains force energy.

[MJ-W4]

Kinda like the Valley of the Jedi? Only opposite...instead of besotwing force energy, it drains force energy.

That rings a bell, now that you say it. Maybe it was my subconscious that gave me a hint in that direction. Anyway, that's my version of the story.

[RobQel-Droma]

Its too bad that Nihilus just kinda popped into TSL, instead of Obsidian giving him (at least) a tiny backstory, if not a large one like Malak was given by the Bioware team. Although, I guess, Malak really didn't have that much of a backstory.... But it still was pretty sufficient. Nihilus was just, well, there. You're flying along in the Hawk and all of a sudden there's some cloaked Sith Lord making wierd sounds to Visas. He's a cool idea for a Sith Lord, but, erm....

[Darca Lar]

Don't they talk about him in Legacy?

[adamqd]

^^^

Yeah, Krayt consults him and various other Sith Lords about prolonging there life (amongst other things)through the darkside, and how he connected his spirit to his mask and robes to "Survive", but Nihilus tells him to piss off before disclosing anything we don't already know

[Darca Lar]

Well that doesn't help much...

[Jediphile]

The only thing that Legacy tells us about Nihilus (in issue 5) is that he escaped death by containing his his consciousness within his armor.

 

There is no reference to whether this is when he allegedly died on Malachor V at the end of the Mandalorian Wars or when he was "killed" by the exile. It seems to suggest the former, but I'm wondering if it might not refer to the latter...