Ctrl Alt Del Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 Also, about the Exile not knowing how dangerous the MSG would be - I just find that one hard to believe because why would she have then activated it? She knew what it did - it would destroy all of the ships in orbit of Malachor V and end the Mandalorians right there. Why else would she have activated it? For fun? The purpose was to destroy the Mandalorian fleet. Yes, but Revan had the Mandalorians cornered. Would it make sense to destroy what seems to be an enormous fleet just to annihilate the last glimpse of mandalorian resistance? It would cost less lives if they sent a smaller fleet just to activate the MSG and die on the process, not a complete task-force. But no, Revan saw it as a chance to get rid of two nuisances at one time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKA-001 Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 Would it make sense to destroy what seems to be an enormous fleet just to annihilate the last glimpse of mandalorian resistance? It would cost less lives if they sent a smaller fleet Why does Revan have to care about how many people die because of him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salzella Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 Why does Revan have to care about how many people die because of him? Because we know that one thing Revan never did, even at his most 'evil' (and I say that hesitantly because i'm with Kreia when she says he never fell') is throw away the lives of troops unnecessarily. Plus, Malachor wasn't the 'Last remnants fo the Mandalorian resistance', it was implied that it was a full fleet, if not an even larger one as a result of Revan's breaking of the Malachor taboo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAWUSS Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 One clarification: Was Malachor V a suicide battle or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKA-001 Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 In a manner of speaking, yes. Revan intended for it to be a suicide battle and a decisive victory at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-false Jedi Posted May 17, 2008 Share Posted May 17, 2008 I do not believe Kreia when she says he/she never fell. It soudns like more of her crazy illogical excuses. I'm fairly certain its stated that Revan did intentionally destroy most of his fleet at Malachor because he arraged for those he did not think would follow him to the Darkside. I got the impression that if it wasn't for Revan's victory at Malachor, the Mandalorians would still have a viable chance of fighting back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAWUSS Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 I do not believe Kreia when she says he/she never fell. It soudns like more of her crazy illogical excuses. I'm fairly certain its stated that Revan did intentionally destroy most of his fleet at Malachor because he arraged for those he did not think would follow him to the Darkside. I got the impression that if it wasn't for Revan's victory at Malachor, the Mandalorians would still have a viable chance of fighting back. Well, the enemy within may be fighting for your faction (at least ostensibly), but they're still your enemy. And as to whether or not he "fell", I guess the core of that is based on your view of the Force. If the light side and dark side are absolutes with nothing in between, then you could say that he fell. If you see the Force in shades of gray, then it might be questionable if he fell at all. One thing is definite and that is the fact that he did become the Dark Lord of the Sith, and in a manner of speaking has some interesting parallels to Palpatine (among others, but we're keeping it exclusively in terms of Force-wielders for now) up until the point when he becomes the Mysterious Stranger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 For all of the reasons I've mentioned above, including but not limited to the fact that Revan could have had the Exile killed (as Malak wanted to) but decided to let her go speak to the council. But Malachor V changed everything. I bet that Revan sensed the change within the Exile, and sent her back in order to spark a reaction from the Council. Just think about how afraid of the Exile those four Jedi masters were. Revan had just started a war with the Jedi; what better way to begin than to show them the face of their failure? Also, about the Exile not knowing how dangerous the MSG would be - I just find that one hard to believe because why would she have then activated it? She knew what it did - it would destroy all of the ships in orbit of Malachor V and end the Mandalorians right there. Why else would she have activated it? For fun? The purpose was to destroy the Mandalorian fleet. Yes, the purpose was to destory the Mandalorian fleet--not her own. Only Revan knew that it would kill his own men in addition to the Mandalorians. The Exile activated it because she was under orders to, and because she knew that it would destroy the Mandalorian fleet. Who would question that decision? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ctrl Alt Del Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 Why does Revan have to care about how many people die because of him? As long as those people are unreliable, he doesn't. If he did truly care, he would send them with the smaller fleet I mentioned, not put such effort on trying to annihilate them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKA-001 Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 what better way to begin than to show them the face of their failure? How is the Exile their failure? They didn't tell her/him to join Revan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 The Exile showed them how wrong they were about the Force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-false Jedi Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 I'm fairly certain it was the Exile's choice to go back to the Council. And Revan doesn't think that the Jedi are wrong about the force, Kreia does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAWUSS Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 I'm fairly certain it was the Eile's choice to go back to the Council. And Revan doesn't think that the Jedi are wro ng aboutt he force, Kreia does. I came because I chose to, not because you summoned me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 I'm fairly certain it was the Eile's choice to go back to the Council. And Revan doesn't think that the Jedi are wro ng aboutt he force, Kreia does. Why would Revan defy and then attack the Jedi if he didn't think they were wrong? Why would he turn to the dark side if he didn't think the Jedi were wrong about the light? And I didn't say that Revan sent the Exile; I said that Revan let it happen, which was HK's recollection (that Revan didn't want to kill the Exile after Malachor). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ctrl Alt Del Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 Why would Revan defy and then attack the Jedi if he didn't think they were wrong? Why would he turn to the dark side if he didn't think the Jedi were wrong about the light? He defied the council because he thought the Jedi should intervene. This whole Force nature stuff began with Kreia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 I'm not talking about Kreia's whole nature of the Force bit. I'm talking about how Revan thought the light side did not solve everything, like the Jedi claim. What happened to the Exile showed the Council just how little they actually about the Force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-false Jedi Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 I do not understand. What exactly would showing them the Exile prove? They already have seen people turn to the Darkside. The Exile wasn't one, at the time anyway. I don't follow the logic of showing something they haven't seen before = the Darkside is stronger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKA-001 Posted May 18, 2008 Share Posted May 18, 2008 The Exile showed them how wrong they were about the Force. Self-opinion injection. I came because I chose to, not because you summoned me. That's only one of the possible things to say. Maybe the Exile said one of the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 I do not understand. What exactly would showing them the Exile prove? They already have seen people turn to the Darkside. The Exile wasn't one, at the time anyway. I don't follow the logic of showing something they haven't seen before = the Darkside is stronger. "Within you, we see something worse than merely the teachings of the Sith. What you carry may mean the death of the Force...and the death of the Jedi." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Non-false Jedi Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 So how does that help Revan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 It caused the Council members to doubt themselves, splitting the Order in half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scatter Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 It caused the Council members to doubt themselves, splitting the Order in half. but it didn't divide the council at all - they were pretty certain of what they needed to do: hence him/her being exiled in the first place. if anything, sending the exile to the council was demonstrative of revan's failure, not the jedi council. here was a jedi who followed revan to war, yet didn't follow him to the darkside/sith when s/he had clear and ample opportunity to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCarter426 Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 but it didn't divide the council at all - they were pretty certain of what they needed to do: hence him/her being exiled in the first place. The Exile's return was what caused Zez-Kai Ell to leave the Jedi, and was instrumental in Atris' fall to the dark side. So I'd say it did divide the Council. However, they still never learned from their failure, as we see when they reunite and attempt to carry out the same punishment, nearly destroying their last hope at stopping the Sith. if anything, sending the exile to the council was demonstrative of revan's failure, not the jedi council. here was a jedi who followed revan to war, yet didn't follow him to the darkside/sith when s/he had clear and ample opportunity to do so. Oh, I'd definitely say it was Revan's failure as well; however, remember that the Jedi didn't know how instrumental Malachor was in converting so many to the Sith (at least not then; they realized it after they felt the destruction of Katarr), and some, like Atris, believed that the Exile truly did fall to the dark side. So they couldn't see it as Revan's failure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TKA-001 Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 "Destroy their last hope" of stopping the Sith? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DAWUSS Posted May 19, 2008 Share Posted May 19, 2008 "Destroy their last hope" of stopping the Sith? Kreia frequently (a couple of times on the way to Telos) mentions that if/once the Exile's fallen, the Sith would have won Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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