Some of the more major issues of OJP

[Maxstate]

Guys we really need to stop pushing things away and we need to get a general consensus going on what we should do with some of our balance issues..

 

I'll list them out and I'd like everyone to post a Yes or No opinion on the questions I'm going to ask so we can get a tally going:

 

 

Absorb:

Should gunners be able to get Absorb 3?

 

Pros:

They need it to counter lightning spam.

 

Cons:

They can counter Grip and Lightning with level 2.

They can counter push and pull because they can shoot from the ground already and most of the time they won't even get pushed over.

Mindtrick is not that lethal and won't work either most of the time.

Having gunners and hybrids open to some Force powers will take away the doubt and make force powers more useful again.

 

 

 

Jump:

Why are gunners allowed to jump as high or as good as Jedi?

 

Should they be able to get jump 2/3?

 

Pros:

They can evade Jedi slashes with it and it saves them fuel so they only need to use jetpack when they have to run away from jedi.

 

 

Cons:

It's gamebreaking since it allows gunners to use Jedi tactics and dodge saber attacks. Since gunners do not use FP for anything else the losses that they take from bunnyhopping or just simply jumping away are null and void.

 

It's highly unrealistic and frustrating and really (just like Absorb and every other power) shames Jedi in the way that their year long training can be emulated by a mercenary with a gun.

 

 

High level Force Powers

Like Lightning and Grip and maybe even some other future powers.

 

Should gunners be able to take high level Force Powers?

 

Pros:

...

 

Cons:

Unrealistic, frustrating again and totally unecessary.

 

Not being able to use those powers while holding heavy weapons is a big big plus of OJP, but this needs to be taken one step further.

 

 

Blob

The clone rifle's imaginary secondary fire.

 

Should we replace it with something more suitable (along with the rest of the secondaries?) like a burst fire?

 

Pros:

It's an easy way to put Jedi in a position of vulnerability, aim and fire.

 

Cons:

It's gamebreaking, spammable, overpowered and too easy to use.

In my server, when someone wants to quickly kill or just annoy another person they use the blob and fire it as many times on someone as necessary to kill them.

 

This thing is a remnant of the old Quake3 styled baseJKA where this weapon would've been totally killer and cool to use, I don't know how many of you STILL SEE OR WANT TO SEE OJP be or become quake3 but it certainly hasn't crossed my mind lately.

 

 

--

 

These are our main concerns for now. Sorry guys but I really don't think it would be wise to continue and make additions while these problems are still in the back of our heads. Lets balance the shebang and then we can do whatever we want!

[razorace]

I've already made it so that Force Power usage is restricted when using certain weapons. I've also made it so they can't block while using heavy weapons.

 

As for Force Jump, I've made it fatigue the crap out of players to use it if they spam it (high initial cost).

 

As for blob, I assume this is after the changes that we made to the splash radius and ammo cost? Should we remove it completely or should we just increase the shot cost (like make it use up an entire clip or something)?

 

Beyond that, we're just going to be making a class-based system and that's just not something I want to do.

[Lathain Valtiel]

The title of this thread should really be: "Should we nerf hybrids to uselessness so I can be a PURE JEDI OMG".

 

Promod had a similar 'problem' minus the almost constant whining even when the force and guns they could take were restricted. Versatility is absolute, the long range offered by guns is simply insurmountable in the long run. And this is coming from somebody who used to be one of the better Jedi of that mod.

 

The fact is, it cannot be dealt with much further without nerfing hybrids to utter uselessness or forcing a class system. Class systems suck ass as does the first option.

[Maxstate]

I really have nothing against neither Jedi nor gunner, I think they should be able to Jedi or gunners without having to resort to each other's skill systems to be efficient.

 

Hybrids are a different matter for me, because they can take everything and use it as efficiently as jedi.

Believe me Lath I enjoy being both gunner and jedi sometimes but some of this stuff is seriously gamebreaking. Not many of you have had the privilege of fighting so many different types of customized warriors, Jackbaldy can tell you what it's like to have a clone rifle'd gunner just jump over you while blobbing the heck out of you.

 

If not for balance reasons, then for realism...

 

Edit:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

lol my grammar sucks in the morning. As for blob, remove it and give the rifle either a scope (which is on the friggen rifle) or a burst fire like the E-11 should have. (I'd rather have a scope, personally).

[tarbaby]

I'm a posting fiend today!

 

I think razor has a pretty good solution: carrying certain weapons restricts Force usage. Maybe you could expand it to include a 25-30% penalty on Jump (Speed too, if not already restricted). Gunners still need jump to get around maps, so you don't want to remove it or restrict it too much.

 

As for the Blob, just give it a 2 or 3 second "recharge" delay. Any competent Jedi should be able to get to his/her feet to saber/move out of range in that time.

 

TB

[Maxstate]

The guns ALREADY have a penalty but jump and absorb aren't penalized with any weapons. We can leave absorb out of the picture if you guys want but gunners really shouldn't be jumping. They have a jetpack for that.

[JRHockney*]

The guns ALREADY have a penalty but jump and absorb aren't penalized with any weapons. We can leave absorb out of the picture if you guys want but gunners really shouldn't be jumping. They have a jetpack for that.

 

Absorb IS penalized in using clonerifle, disruptor, and rocketlauncher because you can't use it. They are 100% vulnerable when using those weapons.

 

And I have no problem with blob. Its been nerfed enough and that gun is next to useless without it, especially at its new firing rate and damage level.

[Maxstate]

Absorb IS penalized in using clonerifle, disruptor, and rocketlauncher because you can't use it. They are 100% vulnerable when using those weapons.

 

This is news to me lol? Do I have a different version than all of you? I still have the one Darthdie compiled for me that's very similar to r505 and it doesn't do that for me

[TheShaman]

My knockdown system would nerf absorb.

KICK BLOB OUT !!!!

Replace it with either a fast burst of 3 shots, or with Max's Aim mode.

 

What about this :

People who spend points in gunnery menu can't go higher than level 2 in force powers.

People who spend points in force menu can't go higher than level 2 in gunnery.

Although, this messes with my knockdown system (the force resistance will be took weak), but to balance all of that, adding Max's aim mode and make it boost force resistance value would be a good idea.

This would both nerf a few things, and improve the gunner side of OJP.

[razorace]

Don't worry Shaman, we're going to try to impliment your Force Power resistance system soon.

 

As for rank restrictions, I'll say again that I'm against them. It goes against the spirit of a skill based system. Plus, IMO I think we've nerfed the hybrids pretty good already.

[JRHockney*]

This is news to me lol? Do I have a different version than all of you? I still have the one Darthdie compiled for me that's very similar to r505 and it doesn't do that for me

 

LOL! Its been around since 0.0.9u. Changelog:

 

- Can't use offensive Force powers while using heavy (Disruptor, Clone Rifle, Rocket Launcher, Flamethrower, and Detpack) or medium (blaster/bowcaster) weapons.

- Can't block Force powers when using heavy weapons.

 

This was like a major milestone improvement for OJP that I and many other rejoiced for. I would suggested testing your code out again.

[Maxstate]

It says Offensive powers, you can still use defensive powers and passive ones while you have heavy weapons, I think we proved that with last nights' betatest?

[razorace]

Err, "Can't block Force powers"=defensive powers.

 

You're right about the passive Force Powers thou. I'm not sure we should block those or not since they don't as impactiful on realism and gameplay as the offensive and defensive powers are.

[Paro]

The title of this thread should really be: "Should we nerf hybrids to uselessness so I can be a PURE JEDI OMG".

/agree

[Kyle Kelasheski]

Hey All,

 

Yes, I'm still alive, and it's hard to believe that I haven't logged in since August of 2006 !

 

I have been lurking, although I haven't had time to try out a single update to what I perceive as being one of the most important mods ever released for JK3.

 

That said, this topic takes me all the way back to one of my first posts, whereby I proposed that perhaps the best way to keep the game feeling as cinematic as possible was by implementing what we've seen in the movies.

 

Sounds simple, right? Obviously from all the haggling I'm still seeing, it's not.

 

I strongly recommend that people visit the following website for an extremely in depth review of the Unreal Tournament total conversion known as Infiltration. To simply dismiss it as another first person shooter would be a major misjudgment, as personally, its "infantry simulator" depth of gameplay has simply ruined my ability to play other first person shooters due to their utter simplicity and nerfiness. Here's the link: http://www.dslyecxi.com/botg_infiltration.html

 

Now some of you may be wondering why I'm referring to it here, and the answer's rather straight forward, I believe now as I believed then, implementing a weighted weapons system that affects players' starting level of stamina, speed, and weapon inertia would go a long way towards realistically balancing gameplay while maintaining the realistic means that the Star Wars films portray small arms firefights. If the power/attributes of a weapon was directly related to its weight/inertial mass in regards to aiming, then that would make the game all the more immersive.

 

In a very broad sense, classes would not be needed. There aren't any in Infiltration, and I dare anyone who is experienced with the game to find one that's better balanced than it is while allowing the player to select any kind of weapon/gear, while not utilizing a class based system. For example, let's say you want to play the BFG gun type bunny hopping Counter Strike addict that everyone likes to complain about. You start up a game of Infiltration, take the M249 SAW with two cans of ammo, six fragmentation grenades, a 1911 pistol with 4 magazines, and a type IIIA armored vest and a Kevlar helmet. Feeling pretty tough now, aren't you, because Infiltration let's you pick any gear that's desired, so you take the best, and lots of it. The problem is, once the game's ramped up, you find out that your starting stamina bar is only a centimeter high, your starting speed is abysmally low, and one's lucky to run 20 meters before breathing heavily and having a nearly impossible time of steadying the weapon. So, Mr. Uber Tough Guy catches a glimpse of an opponent armed with a "lowly" 9mm. pea shooter like a MP5. He tries to bunny hop out of the way, but can't because he's too pooped out from being overloaded. So he stutters behind a thin wooden wall, thinking he's got cover. Only the guy with the MP5 rakes the wooden structure, and rounds penetrate it and load Mr. Tough Guy's body up with splinters and lead. Aww. Too bad. You're dead because you've been hit in the face by a realistically structured environment.

 

Really, other than jetpacks and Jedi, everything else in the Star Wars universe pretty much follows real world tactics and methods of engagements. If cover is present, troopers seek it out, and use it by leaning around it, and then (oh my gosh!) aiming down the sights of their weapon. Spraying and praying only occurs in the most extreme circumstances, such as on Geonosis where there's not an inch of cover to be found on the ruddy plains.

 

Troopers should have the advantages they naturally have over their Jedi opponents. Perhaps the Jedi need to have powers that allow players to be more stealthy and "cunning," such as they are in the films. I'll be the first to say it here, in spite of how powerful troopers should be due to the overly violent means by which they equip themselves, without doubt, Jedi should own any trooper they get within 20 meters of. Their speed, power, Force pull/push, jumping capability, etc. should make them close quarter champions. To me, the game would still be fascinating to play even if it all boiled down to a simple formula: troopers desire distance while Jedi crave closeness.

 

Even if the principles that are spelled out above aren't used, please do yourself a favor, download the Community Edition of Infiltration, and give the game a solid try. The bots don't know how to lean, nor can they toss grenades unless they've used up all of their other ammo first, but you'll be amazed at how challenging, yet rewarding the game can be. If possible, try it out online after spending a week or two playing it on one's own. The online games are VERY tough, and the learning curve for me was easily a month, I kid you not.

 

Yours (and I miss you all!),

 

Kyle

June 5, 2007

 

[razorace]

Well, I think we're going to try adding a weapon weight system that will affect your movement speed and might make secondary fire a zoom function on most of the guns, but I don't think we need to go ALL out and make this ArmedA by adding ironsights and such. I'd like to keep things at a little faster pace since Star Wars is a bit more by-the-seat-of-the-pants vs real-world tactics.

 

BTW, welcome back Kyle.

[Maxstate]

Hey All,

 

Yes, I'm still alive, and it's hard to believe that I haven't logged in since August of 2006 !

 

I have been lurking, although I haven't had time to try out a single update to what I perceive as being one of the most important mods ever released for JK3.

 

That said, this topic takes me all the way back to one of my first posts, whereby I proposed that perhaps the best way to keep the game feeling as cinematic as possible was by implementing what we've seen in the movies.

 

Sounds simple, right? Obviously from all the haggling I'm still seeing, it's not.

 

I strongly recommend that people visit the following website for an extremely in depth review of the Unreal Tournament total conversion known as Infiltration. To simply dismiss it as another first person shooter would be a major misjudgment, as personally, its "infantry simulator" depth of gameplay has simply ruined my ability to play other first person shooters due to their utter simplicity and nerfiness. Here's the link: http://www.dslyecxi.com/botg_infiltration.html

 

Now some of you may be wondering why I'm referring to it here, and the answer's rather straight forward, I believe now as I believed then, implementing a weighted weapons system that affects players' starting level of stamina, speed, and weapon inertia would go a long way towards realistically balancing gameplay while maintaining the realistic means that the Star Wars films portray small arms firefights. If the power/attributes of a weapon was directly related to its weight/inertial mass in regards to aiming, then that would make the game all the more immersive.

 

In a very broad sense, classes would not be needed. There aren't any in Infiltration, and I dare anyone who is experienced with the game to find one that's better balanced than it is while allowing the player to select any kind of weapon/gear, while not utilizing a class based system. For example, let's say you want to play the BFG gun type bunny hopping Counter Strike addict that everyone likes to complain about. You start up a game of Infiltration, take the M249 SAW with two cans of ammo, six fragmentation grenades, a 1911 pistol with 4 magazines, and a type IIIA armored vest and a Kevlar helmet. Feeling pretty tough now, aren't you, because Infiltration let's you pick any gear that's desired, so you take the best, and lots of it. The problem is, once the game's ramped up, you find out that your starting stamina bar is only a centimeter high, your starting speed is abysmally low, and one's lucky to run 20 meters before breathing heavily and having a nearly impossible time of steadying the weapon. So, Mr. Uber Tough Guy catches a glimpse of an opponent armed with a "lowly" 9mm. pea shooter like a MP5. He tries to bunny hop out of the way, but can't because he's too pooped out from being overloaded. So he stutters behind a thin wooden wall, thinking he's got cover. Only the guy with the MP5 rakes the wooden structure, and rounds penetrate it and load Mr. Tough Guy's body up with splinters and lead. Aww. Too bad. You're dead because you've been hit in the face by a realistically structured environment.

 

Really, other than jetpacks and Jedi, everything else in the Star Wars universe pretty much follows real world tactics and methods of engagements. If cover is present, troopers seek it out, and use it by leaning around it, and then (oh my gosh!) aiming down the sights of their weapon. Spraying and praying only occurs in the most extreme circumstances, such as on Geonosis where there's not an inch of cover to be found on the ruddy plains.

 

Troopers should have the advantages they naturally have over their Jedi opponents. Perhaps the Jedi need to have powers that allow players to be more stealthy and "cunning," such as they are in the films. I'll be the first to say it here, in spite of how powerful troopers should be due to the overly violent means by which they equip themselves, without doubt, Jedi should own any trooper they get within 20 meters of. Their speed, power, Force pull/push, jumping capability, etc. should make them close quarter champions. To me, the game would still be fascinating to play even if it all boiled down to a simple formula: troopers desire distance while Jedi crave closeness.

 

Even if the principles that are spelled out above aren't used, please do yourself a favor, download the Community Edition of Infiltration, and give the game a solid try. The bots don't know how to lean, nor can they toss grenades unless they've used up all of their other ammo first, but you'll be amazed at how challenging, yet rewarding the game can be. If possible, try it out online after spending a week or two playing it on one's own. The online games are VERY tough, and the learning curve for me was easily a month, I kid you not.

 

Yours (and I miss you all!),

 

Kyle

June 5, 2007

 

 

I've read only a couple of your posts and was deeply impressed, now I love you <3.

 

This man has a point, read what he said, READ and ban lathain READ IT!!!

[TheShaman]

What about making weight affect also your jump height and/(or if not possible) FP cost?

Like 5 (or 8 if you really want a very high jump cost) FP + weapon weight (1 for saber, pistol, 2 for E11 thermal, 3 for bowcaster, disruptor, det packs, 4 for clone rifle, rocket launcher).

[tarbaby]

regarding kyle's post:

 

i agree 100%....but isn't that how it's balanced now? meaning: heavy weapons prevent the use of certain force powers.

 

i alluded to this before and kyle spelled it out perfectly: heavy weapons should (HAVE TO) restrict movement, and jedi should (HAVE TO) have an advantage in close quarters.

 

i would extend the restrictions to force speed too (if not already), and disallow people from running with heavy weapons. i would consider an "arming" delay. meaning: switching from saber/light weapon to heavy weapon takes 1 second or similar.

 

on a personal note: i love hybrid play. my favorite characters are jedi with missile launchers (just in case). i still like heavy weapons, but, what's the point of playing this game if you're NOT going to use light sabers?

 

tb

[DarthDie]

What if I dont have unreal tournament? Cause i dont have it.

[Kyle Kelasheski]

Unreal Tournament can be acquired via online sources that sell old/used games, and I imagine that by now it's acquirable for a very small sum of money. Even playing Infiltration offline makes buying the original Unreal Tournament worth every single penny. Again, even offline, the game has a pretty steep learning curve, after all, the ironsights aren't even fixed to a centralized aiming point, which is virtually what all shooters do. The thing that's cool then, is that one actually has to move their weapon/arms on the screen to take aim and then fire at a target. Another first in video gaming, and Infiltration did it years ago. But back on topic...

 

If one looks way, way back at one of my earliest posts, I brought up how dueling in the Star Wars films was based on exhausting one's enemies stamina reserves, and unless OJPE's saber mechanics have radically changed since I last played it, this is precisely what OJPE saber system is all about.

 

Now, if Infiltration style small arms fire mechanics were folded in, then stamina management would be just as critical for the shooters as it is for the Jedi. Again, a realistic touch that isn't contradicted in any way by what we've seen in the movies.

 

Please try Infiltration out before thinking it's a slow game. It's not. Trust me, few things are more terrifying, and I do mean terrifying, than thinking you have situational awareness, you turn a corner and oh my gollygee it's an opponent.

 

One can have a visceral sensation of speed without actually having to physically move fast. Moments such as described above are a perfect illustration of what I'm trying to get at.

 

Also, the physical limitations put on a player's avatar due to being burdened with weaponry/gear will have tremendous consequences for everybody on the field. A trooper who is poorly managing their stamina will be in just as much trouble as a Jedi whose poorly managing their stamina. A large portion of OJPE's saber system is grounded on stamina management--why not carry that key element over to the troopers?

 

Shouldn't they be penalized if they stalk around with their weapons endlessly held up to their eyes? Try walking around with a 5-7 lb. weight (or more) in your arms, locked into an aiming position. Yup, it's pretty tiring. A trooper's energy reserve is penalized less for carrying their weapon in a relaxed stance, but then they run the risk of missing their target if they suddenly have to bring their weapon's sight to their eye in order to have a remote chance of hitting their target before their target hits them. This system polices itself logically without having to rely on a class based system that's designed to pigeonhole nerfing exploits. The beauty of this sytem is that it applies to everyone and is thus a great leveler where good tactics and good gameplay are rewarded, and in spite of the level of challenge that's involved.

 

Certain moves could be included that aren't available in Infiltration. If one's weight is low enough, and if one's stamina is high enough, one could trigger a defensive move that counters the close-in tactics of Jedi. Now keep in mind, one CAN be light in weight, and still have no stamina due to being exhausted. Pressing the defensive move key or keys, would allow the trooper to more easily and successfully avoid a saber slash, or give them a reserve to resist a Force power.

 

The more exhausted a trooper gets, the more difficult it is to aim. Imagine how grateful a Jedi would be to see a tired trooper in a long corridor, because they'll automatically have a reduced chance to hit the Jedi due to the heaving of their exhausted bodies and wobbly arms. Likewise, being "conscious" of their own level of exhaustion makes them more fearful of being influenced by the powers of a Force user; and guess what? They're right to be more fearful, because that fear does make it easier for them to be manipulated by Force Users, because it clouds their minds, and weakens it. In a sense, it would operate under the same principles of suffering under the demoralizing effects of suppressive fire. Only this suppressive fire is caused by a god waving around a brightly gleaming sword that can slice through anything. If that isn't suppressive, I don't know what is...

 

Thus, in the end, a trooper who wisely manages their stamina will fare much better than one who doesn't. Let them pick whatever gear they want, but they should certainly suffer from its drawbacks just as surely they should delight in its advantages. But the tipping point between the one and the other should be left to the player's hands. Trust me, players will quickly learn what they like/don't like, and they'll develop their own style and approach to trooper combat. What will make it all the more enduring is that since the player is developing this "class that isn't a class" they'll take ownership over it, and that level of investment will keep them playing long into the night.

 

And Razorace, I'm happy I'm back too. This community sticks together for all of the right reasons, and it's hard to get away from it totally. Although I don't know how long I'll keep my "voice" active in the forums, rest assured, I'll keep lurking because the reading's so good.

 

Goodnight,

 

Kyle

June 6, 2007

[Wytchking]

I to like Kyle's fatigue ideas (though I think something similar has been suggested before) and I don't mind the idea of Ironsights but I believe that Ironsights would be too much work for too little gain as none of the current gun models have particularily good sights. One thing here is if this is implemented should force still be a kind of stamina bar as this does not make much sense for gunners or should a true stamina bar be added?

[Maxstate]

What Kyle suggested, in one sentence is the nerfing of hybrids just as I and many others have done so before: "You can be good at one thing, or the other, but you can't have both and expect them to work as good."

 

He's the first one to really succesfully land a shock attack with that hueg and argumentative post, though.

[Lathain Valtiel]

Actually, you can have both and expect them to work as good by virtue of killing enough to get the required points. Razor has no intention apparently of adding a Promod-esque skill-lock system.

 

Next... even if they don't work as good, as long as you don't nerf the intermediate levels to uselessness you will still get hybrid 'problems'.

[Maxstate]

Actually, you can have both and expect them to work as good by virtue of killing enough to get the required points. Razor has no intention apparently of adding a Promod-esque skill-lock system.

 

Next... even if they don't work as good, as long as you don't nerf the intermediate levels to uselessness you will still get hybrid 'problems'.

 

I didn't say we should lock anything, but you can't expect it to work as good when you spent less time training it, less points in honing it and have less experience with it.

 

We can argue this all you want, bottom line is and will always remain that you can not have both without sacrificing SOMETHING.