Americans are NOT stupid

[mimartin]

The more people you poll, the lower you decrease the error rate, but you don't really need to poll everyone to get what the people really desire.

I agree 100% except when the numbers fall within the margin for error, like the 2000 election and then every vote does matter. This country is so evenly split right now between the blue and red voting matters and every vote could matter (of course this could be just the accountant in me coming out. )

 

The most important thing is that, due to the margin of error that exist in all elections, if there is only a small gap between the two parties, say, only one vote, then it must be that the election is likely to be wrong, and therefore, an automatic recount is in order, in order to guard against the margin of error. Which means, even if you are quite lucky to have your vote matter, the ensuring recount will mean that new votes will come to go and take away the power of your vote.

 

Not if the system actually worked. Again the problem is the party in charge of each voting precinct controls the rules and regulations of how the recount is done. If it is a close election it usually means the majority is in trouble and they do not want every voted counted. I’m all for the recount, but only if every legal vote is counted. You are correct on this point.

 

And maybe the reason American’s is this way is because everyone is not stupid, but because we only care about one thing, ourselves.[/Quote]

Hm. Not sure how muh the "selfishness" factor plays into this. I'm thinking that it's the belief that the status quo works fine, why bother changing, but that may be what you mean by that.

 

I meant the major problem (as I see it) with this county and much of the world is we are selfish and self-centered. We put ourselves ahead of everything else. Sure we give to charity or the church, but the next minute we are cutting someone off on the roadway so we can get home 15 seconds earlier. We don’t care about anyone else’s feelings or well being. I have medical insurance why should I care about the woman down the street that can not afford it for herself or her child? If she could afford the child why did she have it? We callously dismiss others and their values just because they differ from our own, then we can not understand why others dismiss us or our values in the same callous way. If we would only take a moment to put ourselves into someone else’s shoes then maybe we would be a little slower in our dismissal. Maybe we would learn to actually care about each other. Maybe we would want to make sure everyone in this country had a roof over their head, food in their stomachs and access to health care. (I am not coming down on anyone here and I AM GUILTY OF THIS BEHAVIOR. I am also truly ashamed of it.).

 

Many indepedents wants a Third Party[/Quote]

 

I don’t. I want the system to work and I don’t blame the government. I blame myself. We are the people and we must hold our elected official to a higher enough standard than we do today. If they don’t keep their promises then boot them out of office with your vote. We are the ones to blame, because we allow it to happen.

[Totenkopf]

The problem, mimartin, is that we are not a monolithic we. Were we, we would shoulder a greater deal of blame than we actually own. No system is perfect. And, arguably, the only ones to blame are the ones who do a lot of the complaining, but do not participate in the process.

[Weave]

I'd like to keep my minimum wage, social security, public works, taxes, public school system, public libraries, payed vacations, health care, minimum working age, public fire department, other labor laws, outlawed substances and all those other great socialist concepts, thanks.

 

 

 

All of those things suck.

 

(Except paid vacations, I'll give you that. )

 

Well, it doesn't matter what you think. It matters what the proletariat thinks. If workers lose the few benefits that they have... you may want to prepare for a few revolts. Proletarians never counted on capitalist societies (or those who strive for it) to be so versitile. The workers are fooled into thinking they have freedom now (or at least some breathing room) because the boss said, "Okay, I'll up the wages a bit, you happy now?". But if you take their few benefits away, workers would be enraged. Especially considering the world's tender state as is. Personally, If I lost any more of my respectability as a worker, or lost my current pay or any of my other socialist benefits... I'd probably stick a sickle through someone's head. Or burn down a few buildings. Or sing hippie and protest songs in the streets. Everyone hates that hahaha... actually, I already do that... nevermind that last part.

[SilentScope001]

But what about the bourgeoise? Nobody ever stands up for the rights of the Bourgeoise! If you go and help out the poor at the expense of the bourgeoise(forcing the bourgise to pay huge tax dollars to bribe the mob), you will be courting class warfare here!

 

Middle-Class-Men of the World, Unite! You have nothing to lose but your slave morality!

===

I agree 100% except when the numbers fall within the margin for error, like the 2000 election and then every vote does matter. This country is so evenly split right now between the blue and red voting matters and every vote could matter (of course this could be just the accountant in me coming out.

 

But then, if that is true, then we cannot truly understand WHO the people really want. Since as we poll more and more people (assuming that the number of people heading the poll is random, which it is not), we will shrink the margin of error, but not get rid of it totally.

 

So, if say, I get my swing vote bloc of 500 citizens in Flordia to march in and vote for Bush in 2000, thereby sending Bush to the White House. The problem is, does the people of Flordia really prefer Bush or Gore? If the exact same election was reheld, at the same day, and another totally random (or non-random) sample is gathered, could Gore won that election? Prehaps, in a margin of error, huge blocs of votes and "Get out the vote!" drives are effective in changing the results...but then it is akin to choosing your leaders based on the fliping of a coin, or chance, waiting for a majority of people to choose one person when another poll could come up with totally different results..

 

If my vote counts, then it showcases that it is not really democracy at work, but rather, my vote (or bloc of votes). But for democracy to really be effective, and to prevent the outcome of the election to be basically inaccurate based on the margin of error, the Canadiate must have gotten about 55% of the vote or more...which means that my vote wouldn't count at all.

 

Not if the system actually worked. Again the problem is the party in charge of each voting precinct controls the rules and regulations of how the recount is done. If it is a close election it usually means the majority is in trouble and they do not want every voted counted. I’m all for the recount, but only if every legal vote is counted. You are correct on this point.

 

I can see that being possible.

 

I meant the major problem (as I see it) with this county and much of the world is we are selfish and self-centered. We put ourselves ahead of everything else. Sure we give to charity or the church, but the next minute we are cutting someone off on the roadway so we can get home 15 seconds earlier. We don’t care about anyone else’s feelings or well being. I have medical insurance why should I care about the woman down the street that can not afford it for herself or her child? If she could afford the child why did she have it? We callously dismiss others and their values just because they differ from our own, then we can not understand why others dismiss us or our values in the same callous way. If we would only take a moment to put ourselves into someone else’s shoes then maybe we would be a little slower in our dismissal. Maybe we would learn to actually care about each other. Maybe we would want to make sure everyone in this country had a roof over their head, food in their stomachs and access to health care. (I am not coming down on anyone here and I AM GUILTY OF THIS BEHAVIOR. I am also truly ashamed of it.).

 

But if we worry about how other people live and focus on improving their lives, then how can we enjoy our lives? Even atheists admit we only got a limited amount of time on this Earth before we expire. We can't go around trying to solve all the world's problems, trying to always put ourselves in other people's shoes, trying to make everyone happy. It will only make us miserable.

 

Not to mention that actually trying to fix one problem requires not only the support of other people (as you desire), but also, well, a good underlining ideology behind it. You can't charge into, say, Medicare, or Poverty, with an axe screaming "Freedom!" without thinking of the consquences. If you like the consquences, then fine, deal with it. But what if, well, the consquences are just as bad, or worse than the problem you are trying to solve? If the common people do gain a sort of awareness you are adovcating here, they may not even be able to think of these consquences, instead advocating for the solution, getting it passed, and unleashing said problems.

 

Maybe what we really need is not "selfless" common people, but more cunning politicans (with the access to the ideologies who make a living thinking these problems through) who do care about these problems and have the sense to get their way in Congress and in the public arena.

 

The problem, mimartin, is that we are not a monolithic we. Were we, we would shoulder a greater deal of blame than we actually own. No system is perfect. And, arguably, the only ones to blame are the ones who do a lot of the complaining, but do not participate in the process.

 

Then again, maybe even they are not to blame. Prehaps some of these people are engaging in a boycott of the elections, not voting because they want to send a message to the United States. Boycotting an election is a political act, and in fact, a way of "participating in the process", if you will. People boycott elections in third-world nations to protest corruption, why not here?

[Weave]

But what about the bourgeoise? Nobody ever stands up for the rights of the Bourgeoise! If you go and help out the poor at the expense of the bourgeoise(forcing the bourgise to pay huge tax dollars to bribe the mob), you will be courting class warfare here!

 

Middle-Class-Men of the World, Unite! You have nothing to lose but your slave morality!

 

Well, the Bourgeoise ALREADY have benefits (or more than the proletariat)... I'm not suggesting taking from small business' or ANY middle-class-men, I'm content to let them live their lives... but large, multi-national corporations... do they really need so much money? Lumber companies and Construction are probably the worst of these... personally, I've done construction on houses and its not too easy, but I hardly get any benefits for an 8-10 hour day 5 days a week...

Why do you think houses are so $h!**? I'm pretty sure it has to do with workers being very reluctant to even work... and companies using as little materials for construction as possible so they save more money. And where I live, companies like Mr. Trim exploit illegal immigrants for cheap labor... Mr Trim hires illegal immigrants, knowing that they are in fact illegal... then they give them harder work, longer hours, and since they're illegals... the corporations give them bare minimum pay, or in some cases, even lower than that. We're lucky that people who stow away into America are just plain desperate to make a living or New Mexico would probably be a seperate country with a civil war. The Proletariat holds up the pyramid... if workers stop working... corporations stop making money, and the world economy stops (if everyone stops working theoretically). I'm not saying that the life of a proletarian is more important than that of a middle-class small business owner, but it would help if we could be given a little more slack. Oil companies, the music industry, hell... Mcdonalds... all make extremely large quantities of currency... do they reall need it? The WTO pretty much has the say in whatever happens to the small farm and family business. Why should they have so much power? Almost every revolution has been started because of already persisting tension between the upper and working class (i.e. lower AND middle)... and in almost every case... the revolution was in fact counter-revolutionary because of the working class's extreame lust for retribution and other vengence... I work... but I don't want that happening at all... I simply want a little more slack at the expense of Big business and government capitalism. Class tension will ALWAYS exist since the reason classes are divided into classes is because one has it better than the other. And class descrimination will always be practiced... Hurricane Katrina proved that... afterwards, who got the medical care first? Who got insurance benefits first? The upper-class restraunt owner, or their janitor? Certainly not the janitor.

I do support the family home business, or small coffee shop... I wouldn't want to see them succumb to government or larger corporations. And plus... those are the places I WANT to work at.

[mimartin]

But if we worry about how other people live and focus on improving their lives, then how can we enjoy our lives?

I’m not saying that we should lose focus on our own lives. I’m saying that it should not be our only focus. Before we make a decision that may bring ourselves a little pleasure, think of how it could impact others.

 

Cutting my taxes I get $500.00 saving per year, nice but big deal. However in order to give me my $500.00 the government had to cut a after school program and now a child is left alone until his mother get off of work. Who would the $500.00 benefit more me or the child?

 

Even atheists admit we only got a limited amount of time on this Earth before we expire. We can't go around trying to solve all the world's problems, trying to always put ourselves in other people's shoes, trying to make everyone happy. It will only make us miserable.

 

I don’t know how else to say this so forgive me for being blunt. You are wrong. Which gives you more pleasure setting in front of the Television watching some stupid sitcom or helping a friend with a problem? Some of my greatest pleasures in life have come from helping others and expecting nothing in return. Sure it is easier to set on the couch, but true fulfillment and happiness come not from materialist things, but from our interaction with others.

 

The fact that our time here is limited makes this all the more important. Not only is our time limited, but so is everyone else’s. So we should strive to make a difference while we have the time.

 

Not to mention that actually trying to fix one problem requires not only the support of other people (as you desire), but also, well, a good underlining ideology behind it

 

I’m actually not advocating a plan or a side (here at least). I would just like for people to think about all involved and consequences before jumping into the fire. It is easy for someone to make a campaign promises to cut your taxes, but where is the money going to come from. It is also easy to say that we are going to provide health care to every American, but again where is the money going to come from. What about people in the health care industry? What about those that sell health insurance (like me)? How is this going to affect them? What about the millions that don’t have health care now?

 

I’m just saying by looking at all sides we get a better perspective of the problem and may be able to find solutions that could benefit us all or at least the majority. Instead of the current system were we just bad mouth the other side and their plan.

 

 

If the common people do gain a sort of awareness you are adovcating here, they may not even be able to think of these consquences, instead advocating for the solution, getting it passed, and unleashing said problems.[/Quote]

 

At least it would be their problem and not a problem cause by “big business’ or “special interest” the common people have to deal with. The lobbyists are writing most of the bills now. The oil industry decides our energy policy in secret. At least if the people are making the mistakes the system will be working as our founding fathers intended.

 

 

If the common people do gain a sort of awareness you are adovcating here, they may not even be able to think of these consquences, instead advocating for the solution, getting it passed, and unleashing said problems.[/Quote]

 

And how is that different from than now?

 

 

Maybe what we really need is not "selfless" common people, but more cunning politicans (with the access to the ideologies who make a living thinking these problems through) who do care about these problems and have the sense to get their way in Congress and in the public arena. [/Quote]

 

True, but as soon as they get to Washington that all goes away. Remember the Republican Revolution they had all these lofty ideas when they took power. Term limits? No. Line item veto? Yes, but they wrote it in a way that they could run right over to the Supreme Court and get it ruled Unconstitutional before the ink was dry on the original bill. Technically they kept their promise, but did they really?

 

Boycotting an election is a political act, and in fact, a way of "participating in the process", if you will. People boycott elections in third-world nations to protest corruption, why not here?

 

I agree that boycotting an election is a political act, but I really feel it is not an effective way for someone to voice their opinion.

[John Galt]

Cutting my taxes I get $500.00 saving per year, nice but big deal. However in order to give me my $500.00 the government had to cut a after school program and now a child is left alone until his mother get off of work. Who would the $500.00 benefit more me or the child?

 

 

 

I don’t know how else to say this so forgive me for being blunt. You are wrong. Which gives you more pleasure setting in front of the Television watching some stupid sitcom or helping a friend with a problem? Some of my greatest pleasures in life have come from helping others and expecting nothing in return. Sure it is easier to set on the couch, but true fulfillment and happiness come not from materialist things, but from our interaction with others.

 

The fact that our time here is limited makes this all the more important. Not only is our time limited, but so is everyone else’s. So we should strive to make a difference while we have the time.

 

Right. That $500 is yours, the reward for your labor. YOU are free to decide what your money is used for, and you're free to donate it to a private charity if you wish to do so. However, I think it is unjust for the government to take the product of your labor by force(which is what taxation really is), and give it to someone who hasn't earned it.

 

Of course or time here is limited, but I don't expect to have to support anyone else, nor have anyone else support me, unless I specifically consent to have my money used to help that person. The problem with big government is that, once the government takes its due from all of us, the cash belongs to "everyone," and therefore "no-one," meaning that politicians and their lackies are basically free to steal from us.

 

I think that only things that the government should only make me pay for things that benefit(or have the potential to benefit) me, like homeland security/defense, the interstate highway system, mail service, and various state/local programs.

[mimartin]

I think that only things that the government should only make me pay for things that benefit(or have the potential to benefit) me, like homeland security/defense, the interstate highway system, mail service, and various state/local programs.

 

I don't care about security, defense, roads, mail, don't have children, I pay for my own retirement and medical insurance. Never called or had any use for the police or fire department. So by your way of thinking I should not have to pay any taxes at all?

 

I’m also not against tax breaks, but don’t think they should be given until the spending is actually cut. I don’t believe in saddling my debt on the next generation.

 

I also don’t agree with welfare, food stamps or any other government agency that is misused beyond its original purpose as a safety net of last resort. It is abused, but for the people that truly need it, it can be the difference between life and death. We should go after the ones abusing the system, but to condemn everyone for this abuse is unconscionable. I really don’t want to see people starving on the streets of America.

 

I was not saying that the government or anyone else should support anyone. I was just saying we should look at other side of an issue before jumping to a conclusion. I was speaking to our being selfish and self-centered and only caring about what effect our own self. I was not taking one side or the other side of any argument just using them as examples.

[John Galt]

I don't care about security, defense, roads, mail, don't have children, I pay for my own retirement and medical insurance. Never called or had any use for the police or fire department. So by your way of thinking I should not have to pay any taxes at all?

 

No, you're still getting benefits from police, education, homeland defense, etc. They protect you from force, i.e. robbers, other countries, and other unforseen occurances. The money you give to the government is, in all of those instances, being used to your benefit.

 

example: You are not getting benefits from a bridge to a tiny, economically insignificant island built with federal funding in Alaska. It would be unjust to make you pay for it in that context. However, it would be perfectly sound to use ALASKAN tax money, be it federal or local, to complete that project.

[SilentScope001]

I’m not saying that we should lose focus on our own lives. I’m saying that it should not be our only focus. Before we make a decision that may bring ourselves a little pleasure, think of how it could impact others.

 

Cutting my taxes I get $500.00 saving per year, nice but big deal. However in order to give me my $500.00 the government had to cut a after school program and now a child is left alone until his mother get off of work. Who would the $500.00 benefit more me or the child?

 

Ah, so why not have the best of both worlds? Cut the $500 taxes, but keep the school's programs? That's what is going on now, and with terrible results (the higher debt).

 

Ah, and what if people spin it around? Suppose you got a $500 tax increase, and now one kid is happily at home, but soon, that money is being used to support "welfare mothers". (Now, I don't believe in that, or even most ideologies, I'm only using it to hone in a point.) And what if that $500 tax increase manages to put a good strain on the local economy, causing some firings, and leaving someone on the street, or causing job growth to go down 1%?

 

Alright, so that consquences of raising taxes (lower growth, prehaps people getting fired) can be construed as selfish, but I don't think so. You are caring about people other than you, who can get fired as a result of a tax increase, and of the economy, of other people, falling down. You are helping someone else...but at what cost to the other people you are harming?

 

You need to look at the other issue of any issue.

 

I don’t know how else to say this so forgive me for being blunt. You are wrong. Which gives you more pleasure setting in front of the Television watching some stupid sitcom or helping a friend with a problem? Some of my greatest pleasures in life have come from helping others and expecting nothing in return. Sure it is easier to set on the couch, but true fulfillment and happiness come not from materialist things, but from our interaction with others.

 

The fact that our time here is limited makes this all the more important. Not only is our time limited, but so is everyone else’s. So we should strive to make a difference while we have the time.

 

I never mean to say that you should waste your time watching TV or such. What I mean to say is that in the long term, dealing with real problems is going to harm you. You help out a friend, I can see you being happy. But that's because he's your friend. That's selfishness right there, you are supporting those you like.

 

What about supporting people hunderds of miles away, those who you never even met or know? What about trying to manage the world, trying to come up with the solutions to problems? And when you find a solution, you go and wave campagin signs, scream at the streets, place posters, make speeches, and let your life go to waste over one issue. And you will still never be happy about that one issue, since it will never be solved how you want it to. You will be miserable, and overall, you would have accomplished nothing.

 

I do advocate not starting up a campagin and trying to get your way until you really think of the consquences if people accept your ideology, and the how terrible those consquences are.

 

And how is that different from than now?

 

We have to blame ourselves and not politicans. And we may not even know there is a problem, meaning that, well, that problem may never ever be solved. We don't want to admit that we may have made a terrible mistake, which would be quite terrible. Who want to challenge us when we are wrong?

 

True, but as soon as they get to Washington that all goes away. Remember the Republican Revolution they had all these lofty ideas when they took power. Term limits? No. Line item veto? Yes, but they wrote it in a way that they could run right over to the Supreme Court and get it ruled Unconstitutional before the ink was dry on the original bill. Technically they kept their promise, but did they really?

 

Term limits, well, if the people really want to elect a person for life, why not let them, instead of forcing very unskilled idiots into the politican arena? Line-item veto...uh, do you really want Clinton/Bush to veto every single Republican/Democratic pork barrel project and let the other party's pork barrel projects barrel on through? I agree with the Supreme Court that it would grant the Presidency far too much power.

 

But the Republican Revolution, I wasn't thinking of them as smart politicans. What I mean is politicans who are, well, in the end, indescivce. They DON'T have strong ideas as the Republicans, they don't have a creed, they basically don't know if what they are doing is right. All they have is a list of Pros-and-Cons, and they have to make desicions on saying, "Alright. Forget about the people. Forget about the Party. I am in charge of the future of this country, and whatever I do, I will be responsible. What will lead America to greatness...or at least, be the lesser of two evils?"

 

I haven't seen any politican anywhere that has that sort of attidue totally. You do see it from time to time, when it pops out in Presidents and key Senators. But rarely.

 

But, prehaps as the closest we can get, I'd point to John McCain (pre-2000), maybe even Bloomberg, as examples of the Politican I am talking about. McCain has been possibly seen as a stooge for the Republicans, but his underlying weakness is the fact that he does not change his positions. He is a supporter of the Iraq War (so, boom, Democrats hate him), and he wants Immigration Reform (so, boom, the Republicans hate him). He's a goner, and overall, his ideology is just as strong as many other people's. Bloomberg is an awesome candinate as he won't be bought out by special interests. Of course, he's a Third Party candinate, so people aren't going to like him. And he is rich, so he can buy out the special interests in question.

 

I agree that boycotting an election is a political act, but I really feel it is not an effective way for someone to voice their opinion.

 

I actually wonder if it is quite effective. By saying, "I'm not going to play this game. It's just stupid," and walking away, you are really making a strong statement, denying the validity of the elections, showing that you no longer care. It's a much less pleasent and clear-cut way of expressing the views as speeches and TV ads, but it does leave a lasting impression on me.

[mimartin]

You need to look at the other issue of any issue..

Good point.

 

I do advocate not starting up a campagin and trying to get your way until you really think of the consquences if people accept your ideology, and the how terrible those consquences are.

 

We’ve gotten a little off here. I’m not advocating anything. I’m just saying America would be a much better place to live if we just gave each just a little courtesy and treated each other with decency. Dismissing another’s values and beliefs off hand without actually looking at all the facts (not just the facts that serve our on self-interest) is what I consider selfish. I just want us to look at the consequences of our own action and how they affect others and the country as a whole.

 

The example I gave about cutting someone off on the roadway so that I could get home 15 seconds earlier that is me not thinking about the other driver, who has just as much of a right to get home 15 seconds earlier. That is just me being rude, selfish and self-centered.

 

Personally I test as a conservative, but my religious convictions have me vote more on the liberal side.

 

Who want to challenge us when we are wrong?

We have to suffer now when mistakes are made. We might as well suffer from our own mistakes and not someone else’s.

 

Republican Revolution, I wasn't thinking of them as smart politicians[/Quote] I’m not saying they were smart men, but they were very smart politicians. I don’t agree with the line item veto or term limits, I was just saying that they were campaign promises that the Republican used to achieve power and then once they tasted that power they were unwilling to do what they once felt was right. They wanted to keep their power, even at the risk of losing that power due to their breaking of the Contract with America. In other words power corrupts.

 

I actually wonder if it is quite effective. By saying, "I'm not going to play this game. It's just stupid," and walking away, you are really making a strong statement, denying the validity of the elections, showing that you no longer care. It's a much less pleasent and clear-cut way of expressing the views as speeches and TV ads, but it does leave a lasting impression on me. [/Quote]

 

Agreed, but the politicians they are trying to make a statement to will more then likely only construed it as laziness.

[Totenkopf]

Given the generally wasteful nature of government spending, I'd sooner send the $500 to a place where I'm reasonably sure the great majority of it will actually be spent on the "poor" person it's targeted for in the first place. Perhaps the solution should be reform the government first, then send it money. Doing it in reverse order does nothing to stem the incompetence and corruption that plague the system. Frankly, it's not selfish to want to keep your $500 and use it in a manner you see as fit. But, if you're wracked with guilt over a mere $500, why not give up even more of your money to the govt and hope it gets to those truly in need? There is nothing wrong with having a safety net for worst case scenarios, but the government shouldn't put itself in the situation of being viewed by elements of the population (legal or not) as their "sugar mamma/daddy".

[True_Avery]

Sooo.. Nancy... anybody that does not sleep with their American Flag, puff up their chest with a huge amount of pride at the troops, and absolutely adore this country hates it? I'm sorry, but I am an individual... not a blind follower and damn proud of it. At least this country lets me say that.

 

And the majority of what you said, and many of the posts in this thread, simply make me want to escape faser. America as a country is not "evil" or "corrupt", but I think many of its people are just as bad as the "terrorists" we are currently fighting. Yes, I said it. You should not be allowed to scream for freedom and a peaceful attitude while saying that anybody that is "evil" should be hanged. If you don't remember, that is mainly the reason we left England in the first place.

 

I am tired of religion (especially "Chistianity") taking pieces of law and government for itself and aproving/banning things that helps its agenda and morals. I am tired of seeing people run out of house and home due to overpriced Health Care. I am tired of seeing bums on the streets while an old white man swims in his pool of wine. I am tired of seeing kids struggle through our terrible schools only to have to give their soul to the Army in order to get a college education, only to end up dead under a tree in Iraq... leaving his wife and kid alone. I am tired of seeing my gay friends live as room mates because selfish ****s wont let them marry. And I am tired of looking at myself in the mirror, thinking of how much hope I have left in humanity and life itself.

 

But before you run out and start burning the flag you should check to see where your clothes, car and tv are made. Where is your food from? Your house or parts of your house? If it's American you better burn those as well.

Hahaha.

 

Try China, Taiwan, India, and much of Asia. America makes little to nothing because it is cheaper to pay 5cent an hour to an Asian kid than to an American worker with minimum wage. Drive over to Wallmart for me and look at the labels on everything, especially the toys. America is not making those. We would rather have someone barely live in a factory everyday for a $5 fan then pay them full wage for a $7 fan. We may be free here, but damn does this country love slavery.

 

Point is, it doesn’t really matter where you live—you do the best you can with what you got. People will always find problems with the current system and complain for a need for improvement. It’s the ‘grass is always greener over the fence’ syndrome. I’m happy where I am living now, but I don’t think I was any less happy living in Colorado a few years back.

Guess my problem is that I outright despise humanity and am taking it out on America. I should probably just live in a hole in the ground, but sadly I like social activity.

 

Like I said, if you don't like America then no one's forcing you to stay. If you hate it that much then why do you live there?

Money is forcing me to stay here. It is a little harder to leave a country then you think.

 

It is your home. If you don’t like what is happening in this country work to correct the problem. Do not believe the propaganda you can make a difference. Look a Rosa Parks she helped change the course of American History all because her feet hurt. If you want National Health Care vote, contact your Senators and Congressman to make them aware of your desire. Then vote for those that support your cause and then contact them all over again (beware this may be what got me on the TSA watch list).

If only 1 vote ever meant anything. I vote all the time, but I barely, if ever, get anything I vote for passed or rejected. I don't believe the propaganda that we cannot change anything... but I also do not believe the thought that I as an individual can change anything. If I do not vote, then I am doing nothing. If I vote, then it does not matter because nothing I vote for passes. Nobody is going to listen to my opinions seriously and try to make change, especially considering who I am and my lifestyle. If anything, I'll just find myself on that list and end up with someone busting down my door and dragging me away with a black bag over my head.

 

I can say right now that I will never be a respected political figure. I will never have millions of dollars. I will never be seen as more than just another person. At first glance I bet that looks simply like a silly rant, but there are a few things about me that will hinder me from being like that.

 

 

Maybe because you hate it with every fibre in your body? If you hate it so much why stay and force yourself to witness the things you hate about America?

Things like this I cannot possibly wrap around my mind at all. If only the world was cut into people who love America, and people that do not. And it is kind of hard not to notice what America does, seeing how it crawls down everybody's throat and says HI.

 

I still believe there's something here worth fighting for here, and while I believe we have a hell of a long road to travel before we live up to our ideals, I still like the ideals. I may not "love America" the way the current definition of patriotism wants it, but it does not mean my home's not worth it.

America has a few hundred years, a few more civil and world wars, and probably a couple Revolutions before it grows from being a teen to an adult. It would be nice to help it along but... nothing changing in my lifetime, so I may as well make it comfortable.

 

Rome took a similar trip through history. It ended up dieing from the inside out because it was so powerful and corrupt. Some countries try and stay stable, but the superpower always dies. Being the greatest in the world does not make you great, it just sets you up to die harder if you don't save yourself from... well... yourself.

 

I love my country, therefore I use my First Amendment right to bitch loudly and proudly.

Yep, until you get put on a list and watched the rest of your life.

 

Some of that is rant, some of it is opinion, some of it is post bait, and some of it is trying to get this topic kind of on track.

 

So, now, someone cut me down and explain to me why I should not move, why I should like this country, and why nowhere else in the world will ever be better than this.

[Nancy Allen``]

Sooo.. Nancy... anybody that does not sleep with their American Flag, puff up their chest with a huge amount of pride at the troops, and absolutely adore this country hates it?

 

Never said anything remotely like that. Your point?

[SilentScope001]

TA, I tried to tell you why, but apperantly, your whole post turned out to become sort of flame-baity, altough you admit that, and I am sure that is not your intention. You already made up your mind, and you are just trying to get others to agree with you and leave too.

 

Not only that, but you are attacking the people that happen to agree with you. What's this all about friendly fire, stating that all those who are not on your side is with the enemy? We're indepedent people too you know. If you are going to drive away your allies, then who's going to defend you? Never bite the hand who feeds you.

 

Listen, flame-baiting, attacking, screaming, calling Americans stupid...that isn't going to get people to agree with your viewpoints. In fact, you could play into the hands of your enemies, be used as a strawman to be easily knocked down. You know what? You likely already have.

 

People do listen to you. You have an effect. You know it, why else did you post this topic? Do you want a bigger effect? Then spend more time doing more effective stuff. Write letters to editors. Form a PAC. Create a blog. Voting may be useless, but to effect change, you get others to vote the way you want to. And if you complain about having no power in America, then you have no power in Europe or in Canada as well.

 

But when trying to persuade others, you have to actually think of what you are going to say before saying it, due to fears of losing support. Lastly, you have to be careful about the possiblity that you (instead of your enemies) may be wrong, because that may very well be true for all causes, for all people. You have to always be careful, and be humble, instead of thinking that you are a matyr.

 

If you want to leave, then leave as soon as you are able and willing to.

[Weave]

So, now, someone cut me down and explain to me why I should not move, why I should like this country, and why nowhere else in the world will ever be better than this.

 

Because no matter where you go... there will always be someone who wants to have your allegiance all to themselves. Whether it be the monopoly of your mind (church system fascism), the monopoly of your property (capitalism), the monopoly of your body (marriage being deemed as a civil duty), or the monopoly of your entire individualism (public authority), there will ALWAYS be someone willing to claim you and use you for their own ends. And if you stay down or run away, then they have won already. And it won't go away, because even if they're on your TV screen, thousands of miles away, or right next door in a big white house, they won't stop f***ing up the world. Because America was once Libertarian in the beginning and slowly warped into whatever the hell it is now. Who's to say that another State/government won't do the same, or another, and another? Because if you let them treat you as a statistic, then that is what you are. And War is always helped with bombs and statistics and high numbers.

 

Because if you get up despite all the $#!*, then you deny them of what they want. And what the decadant want the most, is the thing they cannot have. And in doing so, you beat them. Sure, life sucks. But don't give up. Because what we B!*** about isn't humanity, it is animosity, the animalistic selfishness of a human being, comrade. (There I go again, with the comrade pronouns... oh well).

 

Because love is the basis of the Radical's unending rage. Because we have such bleeding-hearts. And to give up means that you don't care. And apathy will always kill more people than any nuclear bomb because apathy is ignorance. And ignorance is the most violent element in any society. Damn... I'm laying it on pretty thick, huh?

 

The point is, even if it seems like nothing you do makes a difference, struggle. Why give them the satisfaction of another open mouth being silenced with despair? And if you don't, you only leave the future to burn. Death may be horrible now, but it will be far more horrific in the future. And if you truly don't care anymore, then leave. Would it matter where you go? Isn't every country only conscerned with their own national interests?

 

But remember, there will always be someone struggling for you. Because even if you don't know that person or persons, they are helping you because they struggle for the salvation of all humanity... because they strive for tolerance, solidairity, equality, and a hell of a lot more... and that's worth all of society's crap.

 

 

Edit:

You have to always be careful, and be humble, instead of thinking that you are a matyr.

 

Yeah... do it because it's your pleasure to, because it's what you want for yourself and others. Do it because you don't ask for respect or acknowledgement... but because it is change for the better.

 

Apologies for the double post, COMRADES!!! HAHAHA!!! (Malak's moronic laugh).

[Totenkopf]

Guess you weaved right past the edit link, huh?

 

@TA--I'm curious as to where you think you might go if you find your own country so inhospitable. Any thoughts about the upsides/downsides of that choice (potential or real)? And, $$ aside, any thought about how you'd go about assimilating yourself into your new home should that happen (ie what skills do you have that would allow you to legally emigrate there, etc..)?

[Weave]

Guess you weaved right past the edit link, huh?

 

Cute...

Actually, that's not a half bad pun... I sort of groan-laughed

[mimartin]

At least this country lets me say that.

 

Well that is one thing you seem to like about America.

So reason one to stay is Freedom of Speech.

 

 

America as a country is not "evil" or "corrupt", but I think many of its people are just as bad as the "terrorists" we are currently fighting.

Actually I have to reluctantly agree with this statement. Anyone that allows ideology to become more important than human compassion runs the risk of becoming a terrorist.

Terrorist - somebody who uses violence or the threat of violence, especially bombing, kidnapping, and assassination, to intimidate, often for political purposes. [/Quote] By definition the bombers of abortion clinics, the criminals that beat up people because of the sexual orientation or race and those that would hurt humans to protect animals are terrorists.

 

I will respectfully disagree with the “many” part of your statement. I believe a majority of Americans are good intelligent hard working individuals that respect life and other people. The problem is all we hear from are those that shout their opinions and hate at the top of their lungs.

 

Guess my problem is that I outright despise humanity and am taking it out on America. I should probably just live in a hole in the ground, but sadly I like social activity. .

 

Humanity is not going to change if you leave this country. People are people no matter where you go. Sure you may get rid of one set of problem, but you will find more no matter where you go.

 

I actually love humanity, I love how we are all different yet some how the same. I love how two brothers raised by the same parents can have vastly different morals and beliefs. I am just fascinated by the complexity yet the simplicity at the same time.

 

If you are at or below sea level I really don’t recommend living in a hole.

 

Reason 2 for staying Humanity is the problem not America.

 

Money is forcing me to stay here. It is a little harder to leave a country then you think.[/Quote]

 

Reason 3 for staying Money is short supply.

 

Nobody is going to listen to my opinions seriously and try to make change, especially considering who I am and my lifestyle.[/Quote]

 

No one will take your opinion seriously unless you take your opinion and yourself seriously. Your opinion got a few people here’s dandruff up. I’d say they took your comments seriously enough to at least reply.

 

I don’t know who you are or anything about your lifestyle, but if you present your ideas in a knowledgeable, intelligent, professional way people will take you seriously. The first thing you have to do is first take your own self seriously until you do that you can not expect or demand anyone else take you seriously.

 

If anything, I'll just find myself on that list and end up with someone busting down my door and dragging me away with a black bag over my head.[/Quote]

 

We haven’t gotten to that at least yet. All the do is make you strip at the airport. It is actually good for me as I’m planning another trip and I’ve not been skipping my day at the gym or running.

 

I can say right now that I will never be a respected political figure. I will never have millions of dollars. I will never be seen as more than just another person. [/Quote]

Tell me what is there to respect about a political figure anyway?

 

What the point in a million dollars? Everyone you know will have their hands out wanting a cut.

 

I actually don’t see anything wrong with being just another person. To me it is not about how others judge me it is about how I judge myself.

 

At first glance I bet that looks simply like a silly rant, but there are a few things about me that will hinder me from being like that.[/Quote]

 

I’m not going to pretend to understand that. So I’m only speaking from personal experience. We sometime hinder ourselves by pretending to understand what other people think of us. I hindered myself do to the death of someone close to me. I held myself responsible for something that was basically out of my control. Short version…I broke up. She was somewhere she wouldn’t have been if I hadn’t. She died three days later. All my friends knew the reason I broke off the engagement. So I assumed they and her family blamed me. I went into a shell that I still have not completely escaped. I know now even her father does not blame me, but I still have trouble forgiving myself (there is more to it but this is enough to make my point). The point is I was so worried about their opinion of me that I stopped living life and did not do talk to my friends about it to help me get over the pain and quilt.

Things like this I cannot possibly wrap around my mind at all. If only the world was cut into people who love America, and people that do not. And it is kind of hard not to notice what America does, seeing how it crawls down everybody's throat and says HI. [/Quote]

 

That wouldn’t work. I can still see its faults, but that does not diminish my love for it. No disrespect to any other country, but I am truly thankful for this being my home.

 

nothing changing in my lifetime, so I may as well make it comfortable.[/Quote] You never know. One thing about life is nothing ever stays the same and we are constantly changing sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worst. Grab a history book and read about how much this country has change over the last 62 years. If you don’t like it now wait a few years hopefully this will be just a dark time in our history, but then again you may refer to this as the good old days in your old age.

 

So, now, someone cut me down and explain to me why I should not move, why I should like this country, and why nowhere else in the world will ever be better than this.

 

I will not say that anywhere else in the world would not be better than here. I will say you will experience problems wherever you go just as you do here. I will not say why you should like this country as that is something that an individual must decide for themselves. We can only tell you what we love about it or what we hate about it and nothing more.

 

I rant right back at you!

[Jae Onasi]

So, now, someone cut me down and explain to me why I should not move, why I should like this country, and why nowhere else in the world will ever be better than this.

 

The grass is always greener over the septic tank. [/Erma Bombeck]