Why do atheists become people of faith?

[Jae Onasi]

  Achilles said:

But you said, quite definitively, that it was jesus' love. Surely you have good cause to speak so definitively. Or perhaps you could simply rephrase your statement.

 

But you posted your definitive statement about christianity here *confused*.

 

I said this:

  Quote

Of all the atheists/agnostics I've talked to about their conversion to faith (in this case Christianity), their reasons generally fell into 2 camps....

(emphasis mine). Where did I speak definitively where it was not specified as their reasons?

 

  Achilles said:

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is infinite. He existed before time, space, and processed meals from a can.

Any god who can be squashed into a can and processed at high heat for consumption by 8 year olds doesn't qualify as existing before time and space.

[Achilles]

  Jae Onasi said:

I said this: (emphasis mine). Where did I speak definitively where it was not specified as their reasons?

Fair enough. Next time you see "them", please let them know I have questions.

 

  Jae Onasi said:

Any god who can be squashed into a can and processed at high heat for consumption by 8 year olds doesn't qualify as existing before time and space.

He is divine pasta. He doesn't go into cans like mortal pasta. Apparently, you aren't familiar with The Gospel. Besides, you can't prove that he didn't exist before time and space.

[Rev7]

I agree, but shouldn't this go in the Atheism/ Theism thread?

[Rogue Warrior]

Another way of looking at it is to see the way theists are and the way atheists are and choose one side or the other because of the way their stance is portrayed.

[Jae Onasi]

  Rogue Warrior said:

Another way of looking at it is to see the way theists are and the way atheists are and choose one side or the other because of the way their stance is portrayed.

 

Faith, or lack thereof, is an extremely personal decision--I don't think people should be making a decision of that importance based on how a few individuals behave. There are good theists and atheists everywhere, and there are bad theists and atheists everywhere. If we expect perfect behavior out of either group, we are going to be sorely disappointed. Humans cannot be perfect, and if you base your decision for atheism/theism on how the worst people in that group behave, no group will ever meet your standards.

[Rogue Warrior]

It might be wrong of me to think this way but my...faith? in atheism is somewhat shaken based on how some portray it, and on the other hand the way people, good people, portray religion has me thinking that maybe it is not so bad.

[PoiuyWired]

  Jae Onasi said:

Faith, or lack thereof, is an extremely personal decision--I don't think people should be making a decision of that importance based on how a few individuals behave. There are good theists and atheists everywhere, and there are bad theists and atheists everywhere. If we expect perfect behavior out of either group, we are going to be sorely disappointed. Humans cannot be perfect, and if you base your decision for atheism/theism on how the worst people in that group behave, no group will ever meet your standards.

 

Plus, there are different targets and degrees you can put your "faith" in. Different groups have different definitions, retionalities and "other" agendas.

 

Then again, technically people put "faith" in atheism too...

[Rev7]

Point of view is important Poiuy. TECHNICALLY they do have faith, BUT I don't think that was what Jae was talking about. I may be wrong though, so forgive me if I am.

[Achilles]

  PoiuyWired said:

Then again, technically people put "faith" in atheism too...

  Rev7 said:

TECHNICALLY they do have faith <snip>

Please explain? Thanks in advance.

[Rev7]

Well, I guess that you could say that atheists have faith that what they think is right, as do everybody else in there religions. Also, in school have you ever had faith that you would get an A on the test? If you break it down to everyday life, you WILL see that you and everybody else has faith in may things even if it has nothing to do with religion. That is what I mean by "Technically the do have faith" .

[Achilles]

  Rev7 said:

Well, I guess that you could say that atheists have faith that what they think is right, as do everybody else in there religions.

An absence of evidence does not require faith. Do you have faith that there's no evidence for invisible pink unicorns or do you simply refuse to seriously consider their existence until someone provides you some evidence?

 

  Rev7 said:

Also, in school have you ever had faith that you would get an A on the test? If you break it down to everyday life, you WILL see that you and everybody else has faith in may things even if it has nothing to do with religion. That is what I mean by "Technically the do have faith" .

You mean like when I sit down to a meal I have faith that it hasn't been poisoned? Or when I get in my car, I start the ignition with faith that it hasn't been wired with a detonator and some explosives?

 

Sure. But those things could be empirically verified beforehand. I could test my food for poison before digging in. I could inspect my vehicle for explosives before getting inside.

 

Plus, I'm still not sure how even this tangential application of "faith" could be applied to atheism.

 

I appreciate you attempt at clarification though. Thank you for your response.

[Totenkopf]

Unfortunately, we can't currently test for where everything in creation/existence actually came from (and probably never will), hence your faith that there is nothing/noone to believe in in the first place.

[Rev7]

  Achilles said:

An absence of evidence does not require faith. Do you have faith that there's no evidence for invisible pink unicorns or do you simply refuse to seriously consider their existence until someone provides you some evidence?

 

You mean like when I sit down to a meal I have faith that it hasn't been poisoned? Or when I get in my car, I start the ignition with faith that it hasn't been wired with a detonator and some explosives?

 

Sure. But those things could be empirically verified beforehand. I could test my food for poison before digging in. I could inspect my vehicle for explosives before getting inside.

 

Plus, I'm still not sure how even this tangential application of "faith" could be applied to atheism.

 

I appreciate you attempt at clarification though. Thank you for your response.

Your welcome. What I was trying to say was that "TECHNICALLY" atheists do have an everyday faith, and that they have faith that what they believe in is the truth, which is that there is no God(s). By no means am I judging athiesists, it is just everybody in the world thinks that what they believe in (religiously)is right.

[Achilles]

  Rev7 said:

Your welcome. What I was trying to say was that "TECHNICALLY" atheists do have an everyday faith, and that they have faith that what they believe in is the truth, which is that there is no God(s). By no means am I judging athiesists, it is just everybody in the world thinks that what they believe in (religiously)is right.

I already pointed out how this reasoning is flawed in my last response. You chose not to address my argument, which is fine, but I don't see how repeating your previous statement makes it any more accurate.

 

No faith is required for atheism because atheism makes no positive statement regarding the existence or non-existence of a god or gods.

 

Take care.

[Rev7]

What I am trying to say for the third time is that atheists have a faith, or more commonly know as knowing that they are right, that there is no God(s). That is what I am trying to point out. I will not say anymore about this subject, thanks.

[Emperor Devon]

  Rev7 said:

What I am trying to say for the third time is that atheists have a faith, or more commonly know as knowing that they are right, that there is no God(s).

 

Your logic is fallacious. To require faith to not believe in a deity would require an absence of faith to believe in one. You cannot logically claim that to not have faith you must have it.

 

But for clarification, in case you've got your definitions mixed up... Faith = belief without direct proof. Reason = belief with direct proof or lack of belief in the absence of proof.

 

Do atheists consider themselves reasonable? Yes. Faithful? No. I hope that's cleared the matter up for you.

[Rev7]

  Emperor Devon said:

Your logic is fallacious. To require faith to not believe in a deity would require an absence of faith to believe in one. You cannot logically claim that to not have faith you must have it.

 

But for clarification, in case you've got your definitions mixed up... Faith = belief without direct proof. Reason = belief with direct proof or lack of belief in the absence of proof.

 

Do atheists consider themselves reasonable? Yes. Faithful? No. I hope that's cleared the matter up for you.

First of all I am not being decietful. Second I have already stated that i am not going to argue with anybody. I was only giving my opinion, not saying that what I believe is what everybody should believe. I was only trying to state what I believe in a peaceful manner. Thank you.

[Achilles]

  Rev7 said:

What I am trying to say for the third time is that atheists have a faith, or more commonly know as knowing that they are right, that there is no God(s). That is what I am trying to point out. I will not say anymore about this subject, thanks.

Repeating it isn't going to make it true.

[mimartin]

By definition atheist can have faith in something or someone, such as a spouse or a political belief. However, by the same definition an atheist cannot have faith in there not being a God, unless there was logical proof that there was a God and they still had believed there was not.

 

I have faith and I will still willingly admit there is no logical proof of his/her existence. That is why it is called faith.

[Rogue Warrior]

How about converting because people need something more than perhaps a negative godless view has to offer?

[Achilles]

  Rogue Warrior said:

How about converting because people need something more than perhaps a negative godless view has to offer?

Pssst! Hey! Nancy! You're supposed to be an atheist now, remember?!

 

Converting to what? Christianity? Islam? Paganism? Pastafarianism?

 

And what is a "negative godless view"? Negative godless view of what? And how does it differ from a "positive godless view"?

 

Thanks in advance.

[Ray Jones]

I'd like to know that too.

[Totenkopf]

Well, since the dictionary game seems to be quite popular here......

 

Main Entry: 1faith

Pronunciation: \ˈfāth\

Function: noun

Inflected Form(s): plural faiths \ˈfāths, sometimes ˈfāthz\

Etymology: Middle English feith, from Anglo-French feid, fei, from Latin fides; akin to Latin fidere to trust — more at bide

Date: 13th century

1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions

2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust

3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>

 

.....soooo, in essence, it's quite possible for an athiest to have faith.....just not in God or gods. End of discussion.

[Ray Jones]

And here I am thinking this is clearly about religious faith, and why atheists possibly might feel the need to turn to it and against reason - instead of some finickiness about atheists being able to have faith or to believe that their socks will smell when filled with dog poo.

 

 

  Rev7 said:

What I am trying to say for the third time is that atheists have a faith, or more commonly know as knowing that they are right, that there is no God(s).

Wrong and wrong and wrong. Atheists do not know that there is no god. They know they have no valid and testable proof for the existence any god. BIG difference. Also, for that there is no 'faith' needed.

 

 

  mimartin said:

By definition atheist can have faith in something or someone

I'm wondering where the definition of 'atheist' contains anything among the lines of "atheists can have faith".

[Jediphile]

  Ray Jones said:

Wrong and wrong and wrong. Atheists do not know that there is no god. They know they have no valid and testable proof for the existence any god. BIG difference. Also, for that there is no 'faith' needed.

 

I'm wondering where the definition of 'atheist' contains anything among the lines of "atheists can have faith".

 

Oh I don't know... I think a case can be made for arguing that atheists have a belief in the sense that they believe there is no god.

 

After all, atheism is the doctrine or belief that there is no God.

 

Care should be taken not to confuse an atheist with an agnostic, which means a person who holds that the existence of the ultimate cause, as God, and the essential nature of things are unknown and unknowable, or that human knowledge is limited to experience.

 

While the two may seem similar on the surface, to me it looks like an agnostic doesn't believe that we can know whether god exists or not, and maybe even that it doesn't matter anyway, while an atheist actively believes with conviction and certainty that there is no god.

 

I could be wrong, mind you, but that's how I interpret it.

 

And the two are not the same, albeit the distinction may be irrelevant or inconsequential to a religious person, especially if that person is so strong in his or her beliefs, that all non-believers are thrown into the same category.