The first school shooting in Finland

[Web Rider]

The music is not responsible for the crime, I'm not saying that. Only that much of the music, be it rap, metal, pop, classical or whatever, that has violent themes to it, is not entirely free of blame.

[tk102]

Which is pretty much how almost every law in modern democracies are made.

Yes I was deliberately stating the obvious there.

I think you're making simplistic assumptions and archetypes.

Perhaps, though I'm not referring to one individual post. I'm commenting on a general impression I've gotten from reading a number of posts from these tragedy threads. The most sharply-worded posts are those which raise the banner of personal liberty/personal responsibility over all else.

I get the feeling from your post, that those who are blaming the individual are taking shortcut answers. That is false.

Judging from the rest of your post, I would say it is false in your case. I would not dare to assume though that you actually meant to speak for everyone else.

Blaming gun culture could also be a shortcut answer. Assuming that those who blame the individuals instead of the gun ignore social factors is also false.

Yes, of course, and I would have raised the same issue conversely if these threads kept leaving me with that alternative impression.

...The problem is much more complex... What I do know is that it is not possible to blame a single factor.

We agree at least on this.

[lukeiamyourdad]

I see...I understand what you meant to do.

 

I just find it interesting that someone is there to question ideologies rather then join into the ideological debate. I'm not saying it's not good, but that it's odd and something I don't see often.

[tk102]

^^ It's a dirty job but someone has to do it.

[Tommycat]

Switzerland is a poor example because, if I am not mistaken, they are erquired to be a part of the military. Perhaps though it is kind of telling that those areas where the least gun crime takes place are areas where there is more care taken to teach PROPER use of the gun. I think it is important to allow firearms in the world. I lived in Colorado at the time of Columbine. One of my friends was a teacher there. He helped several students escape. He wished that he had his own firearms available to him. This represents the law abiding versus the criminal. The law abiding person like my friend respects the law that he is not to carry his pistol on campus. The criminal doesn't care about the law.

 

I can(should I desire it) go out right now and purchase an M60("I know a guy" kind of thing). They are not legal in this area. As far as I know it is illegal to purchase them anywhere in the US. This is not to brag, nor claim that its extremely easy to do so, but IF I can do it, I know I am not the only one who can.

 

At any rate, BACK to the topic. This is another terrible tragedy. It is very sad to see that another country now has a school shooting tragedy. Any massacre is a horrible thing. Its too bad this person didn't start with eliminating himself first.

[Rev7]

In many different situations, a gun would be VERY useful. I like your example that has to do with the Columbune shooting, but it is very illegal for a teacher to have any sort of weapon on a school campus. As I said in some situations a gun would be very useful, and in this situation I think that it would have been very useful if the teacher was willing to risk his/her life.

As you said, " The criminal doesn't care about the law", I think is 100% right on! The criminal made the decision to do whatever he/she wanted to do. People MAY have be able to try to help the person, but if that person has a very strong will to do something, then the person will most likely do it.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Switzerland is a poor example because, if I am not mistaken, they are erquired to be a part of the military. Perhaps though it is kind of telling that those areas where the least gun crime takes place are areas where there is more care taken to teach PROPER use of the gun.

 

 

Actually, not at all. It's a good example of an area where there's a huge amount of guns, a lot of people who are trained marksmen, but gun violence is low. The argument against such an example is on the social side where there's indeed none of the major problems seen in other industrial country due to Switzerland's isolation. Won't stop a kid from being bullied in his teenage years and going berserk on people, but actual everyday gun crime is insanely low. We could go on and on about why the Swiss love their firearms, but that's the necessary information.

[Web Rider]

I can(should I desire it) go out right now and purchase an M60("I know a guy" kind of thing).

 

the sad part is that you can go to just about any gun-show and buy all the parts you need to build any assortment of illegal firearms. It's not illegal to own all the parts, or eve have 99% of the parts put together, just illegal to have all the parts together and the weapon functioning.

[Ray Jones]

Only that much of the music, be it rap, metal, pop, classical or whatever, that has violent themes to it, is not entirely free of blame.

Would "not entirely free of blame" apply to video games, too?

 

 

Outside of not getting laid, I can hardly find something similar between all of them.

FPS, anyone?

[Web Rider]

Would "not entirely free of blame" apply to video games, too?

FPS, anyone?

 

And the parents who buy those games for their kids who aren't old enough to have them, or the kids they know aren't stable enough to make the difference between reality and game.

 

It applies to any person who even utters the word "gun". To a degree. But it's still, and I'll say it once again for emphasis, it's still the person who chose to go commit those act's fault.

[Rev7]

But it's still, and I'll say it once again for emphasis, it's still the person who chose to go commit those act's fault.

Thats what it boils down to.

[John Galt]

Actually, not at all. It's a good example of an area where there's a huge amount of guns, a lot of people who are trained marksmen, but gun violence is low. The argument against such an example is on the social side where there's indeed none of the major problems seen in other industrial country due to Switzerland's isolation. Won't stop a kid from being bullied in his teenage years and going berserk on people, but actual everyday gun crime is insanely low. We could go on and on about why the Swiss love their firearms, but that's the necessary information.

 

We have a lot of "trained"(I quote, because tons of people have orange cards here) marksmen, especially hunters, and a few military rifle collecters like myself here in East KY, and there is very little gun crime, which is odd considering the amount of drug crime around here. I think part of this is that guns have little "mystique" here; they're everyday tools for getting food and suchlike.

[Ray Jones]

And the parents who buy those games for their kids who aren't old enough to have them, or the kids they know aren't stable enough to make the difference between reality and game.

Or shopkeepers who sell the game to kids, or software developers of p2p software making the download of the game easy as nothing. Basically, as a parent, you are held responsible for dealing with the irresponsibility of many others. The main factor stays present on all scenarios: the existence of those games.

 

But it's still, and I'll say it once again for emphasis, it's still the person who chose to go commit those act's fault.

From a certain age on, yes. But teenagers, clearly no.

[Web Rider]

Or shopkeepers who sell the game to kids, or software developers of p2p software making the download of the game easy as nothing. Basically, as a parent, you are held responsible for dealing with the irresponsibility of many others. The main factor stays present on all scenarios: the existence of those games.

 

From a certain age on, yes. But teenagers, clearly no.

 

no, the important factor, the ONLY factor that truly matters is that a person CHOSE to commit violent acts.

 

First off: its illegial to sell the game to minors. Aside from a few small shops, big chains check ID when a small kid comes through with a mature game. It is also Illegal to bootleg the games in that manner. In that case, your "precious child" who can do no wrong, is breaking to law to get those games. While the store may have simply been irresponsible to sell the game to your kid, bootlegging is illegal,

 

So if your kid is trying to buy a violent game, he's trying to break the rules. If your kid is bootlegging a game, he IS breaking the rules. if your kid kills people because of a game that he broke the rules to get, it's your kid's fault.

 

And it applies to all ages, people from a certain age or maturity level up are entirely responsible for their actions. Teens are no exception because of raging hormones.

[mimartin]

Most loonies don't get their guns the legal way anyway, they either steal it or purchase from illegal sources.

According to the Victim Policy Center study

In 62 percent of the handgun shootings (26 cases), the handguns were acquired legally.

In 71 percent of the long-gun shootings (12 cases), the guns were acquired legally. [/Quote]

 

So according to VPC most guns used in US school shooting since 1980 were gotten by legal means. An Analysis of the Firearms Used in High-Profile Shootings, 1963 to 2001

In addition, an October 2000 study of school shootings by the United States Secret Service National Threat Assessment Center looked at 37 violent incidents in schools. The study found that the weapons of choice were firearms, and that in nearly two-thirds of the incidents the attackers obtained the guns from their own home or that of a relative. In some instances, the guns had been gifts from their parents. The study also determined that more than half of the attackers had a history of gun use.[/Quote]

[Web Rider]

I'm not sure Corinthian was refering only to school shootings.

[mimartin]

I'm not sure Corinthian was refering only to school shootings.

Sorry misunderstood.

 

Edit: but the report is not only dealing with School Shootings but with High-Profile Shootings from 1963-2001. Of those shooting most firearms were gotten legally. The numbers would be inflated anyway consider how easy it was to purchase a hand gun in the 60s and 70s. If they included Charles Whitman in this study that would also greatly increase that number considering how many weapons he took with him that infamous day.

[Web Rider]

Sorry misunderstood.

 

well our two posts are a bust now.

[Corinthian]

I'm sure most of those guns were acquired legally. Of course, the kid stole them from his parents before he went on the spree more than likely.

[mimartin]

I'm sure most of those guns were acquired legally. Of course, the kid stole them from his parents before he went on the spree more than likely.

I also read about how in a couple of the school shootings that the guns were stolen from neighbors and friends of the family.

 

This begs the question in school shootings were you have underage perpetrators killing with guns taking from the parent’s night stand or the neighbor’s garage how much is the gun owner responsible for not locking up the gun or using trigger locks to prevent unauthorized use of their weapon?

 

While I agree with Web Rider that the person committing these violent acts is ultimately responsible, I do not believe that is the only factor that matters. I believe by being a gun owner you have taken a responsibility onto yourself to ensure that you do everything possible to make sure that gun is not misused in anyway. So to me that means trigger guards, gun safes and general gun safety (that also means not giving the key or the combinations to minors) . So in my opinion the person that allowed their gun to be used in these shootings either voluntary or involuntary can also share in the guilt for these crimes to a certain degree if they did not do everything possible to keep the firearms out of the hands of a minor or someone that has mental or criminal problems.

[Corinthian]

Of course the parent bears some responsibility for the kid's action. Heck, they should bear a LOT of the responsibility. The problem is that they're unwilling to accept any responsibility and would rather blame it on TV and video games.

 

If somebody is determined to go on a killing spree, they'll find their way around a trigger lock or a gun safe. Might take him a while, but he'll do it eventually. The REAL problem is that parents aren't doing their jobs properly.

[Web Rider]

While I agree with Web Rider that the person committing these violent acts is ultimately responsible, I do not believe that is the only factor that matters. I believe by being a gun owner you have taken a responsibility onto yourself to ensure that you do everything possible to make sure that gun is not misused in anyway. So to me that means trigger guards, gun safes and general gun safety (that also means not giving the key or the combinations to minors) . So in my opinion the person that allowed their gun to be used in these shootings either voluntary or involuntary can also share in the guilt for these crimes to a certain degree if they did not do everything possible to keep the firearms out of the hands of a minor or someone that has mental or criminal problems.

 

as I've said already, there is much blame to pass around. I had to emphasize my focus on the criminal being responsible when Ray tried to twist the "primary factor" in kids killing people from being the kid being at fault to the game being at fault.

 

The REAL problem is that parents aren't doing their jobs properly.

 

not true, most parents ARE doing their jobs properly. Hence why there are more responsible people with guns than without, and school shootings are still largely anomalous things, they are 1 or two people in only a handful of schools out of hundreds of thousands of kids.

[Corinthian]

Thank you, Webrider, for completely missing the point. I'm not talking about the average, non-loony schoolkid. Geez.

[Web Rider]

oh so now you're talking about the crazy kids. before you were talking about more than just those. if we're all going to assume here we're gonna make alot more mistakes than that. and yeesh, no need to get pissy at me.

[Corinthian]

Uh...what? I've been talking about those the entire time.