Carth Or Atton

[Lance Monance]

Carth is the Imoen of Kotor. Therefore Atton.

[luckyariot]

*Shrug* I find that Atton has more potential as an interesting and complex character, but sadly, it wasn't finished. Carth is very well done, just... too cliche sometimes... Atton's cliche is twisted a bit, and made much darker, especially in cut content.

[Ctrl Alt Del]

Atton. In the end, I just thought he had a more dramatic backstory, although somewhat incomplete.

 

If Carth was at his age on the comics, though, things would have been different.

 

Would have been much better if BioWare had Revan order the attack on Telos instead of Malak. Obsidian really went the extra mile with the Exile being responsible for the deaths of hundreds of Atton's fellow soldiers.

Well, I can't see Carth forgiving the player after the Leviathan if that was true. Independently of light, dark or, hell, even gray side.

[JCarter426]

Still, would have been more interesting, wouldn't it?

 

Speaking of which, I'm not even sure if Atton actually forgives the Exile.

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Still, would have been more interesting, wouldn't it?

IDK. That doesn't seem like Revan.

[Corinthian]

Carth is the Imoen of Kotor. Therefore Atton.

How DARE you compare Imoen to Carth. Imoen at least had a personality beyond whining about her pitiful fate.

[Melly]

IDK. That doesn't seem like Revan.

 

Does to me. *shrug* Revan played mind games with everybody. She played a mind game with the Jedi by destroying Telos. Kreia says in some of the cut dialog that Revan chose to destroy Telos because it was that last refuge of the Jedi and then they would have no where to run to if something were to happen to their other outposts (Dantooine, Coruscant).

 

She also played a mind game with the Jedi Council in the form of the Exile. The Exile came back and made the Council doubt their decision to stay out of the Mandalorian Wars.

 

And we know that Revan played a mind game with the Mandalorians too. Their leadership is decided by who has Mandalore's helm. When Revan defeated Mandalore she took the helmet, and rather than declaring herself the new Mandalore she hid it, so that they would never have a leader and would always be scattered.

 

So the Telos thing doesn't seem like so much of a stretch, to me. Besides I always disliked the fact that Revan was conveniently absolved of the blame for Telos. It was a cop out. And I applaud Obsidian for trying to make her responsible.

 

And Carth says he tried to hate Revan after the Leviathan for she's done ("for my wife, for Telos, for Dustil") but he couldn't and he says it's because his revenge on Saul didn't help a damn bit. She's also not entirely the same person, she's still Revan, but not Darth Revan. So I could still see him forgiving Revan even if she did give the order to destroy Telos.

 

(Granted a lot of that stuff about the mind games is from K2, but to me it fits with the "master tactician" that Revan was always put forth as, and never proved to be, in K1.)

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Does to me. *shrug* Revan played mind games with everybody. She played a mind game with the Jedi by destroying Telos. Kreia says in some of the cut dialog that Revan chose to destroy Telos because it was that last refuge of the Jedi and then they would have no where to run to if something were to happen to their other outposts (Dantooine, Coruscant).

True? Never heard of it. Because:

 

1º Telos was destroyed by Malak's orders, not Revan's. The first game left it pretty clear.

 

2º The only time that Telos is a Jedi "stronghold" is about the K2 time. Sure, it was always there, but since the Sith completely missed that part of the world, they mustn't knew about that.

 

She also played a mind game with the Jedi Council in the form of the Exile. The Exile came back and made the Council doubt their decision to stay out of the Mandalorian Wars.

Uh? That was the Exile decision, no one else.

 

And we know that Revan played a mind game with the Mandalorians too. Their leadership is decided by who has Mandalore's helm. When Revan defeated Mandalore she took the helmet, and rather than declaring herself the new Mandalore she hid it, so that they would never have a leader and would always be scattered.

Point taken. Or not, I'm still reading through your post to find out the relation between being a manipulator and doing such a brutal act. In fact, he should use more... finesse.

[Melly]

True? Never heard of it. Because:

 

1º Telos was destroyed by Malak's orders, not Revan's.

 

2º The only time that Telos is a Jedi "stronghold" is about the K2 time. Sure, it was always there, but since the Sith completely missed that part of the world, they mustn't knew about that.

 

Atris: “It was always intended for the Jedi to retreat to Telos should Dantooine be attacked - taking all their lore with them. We could not allow the tragedy at Ossus to happen again.”

Kreia: “Such an act marked Telos for destruction. It is why the Sith came here, though the fleet commanders did not know why. It is why Revan ordered its destruction to mark the beginning of the Jedi Civil War. It was a message that there would be no place for the Jedi to retreat, to hide. I would not be surprised if Revan left other gifts beneath the surface of the planet - much can be buried beneath graveyards that will never be found.”

 

"Before the war, Jedi who failed their training were sent to the fields of Telos, to serve the galaxy... not as Jedi Knights, but as farmers and laborers."~ Kreia. This is also backed up in the EU, by the Jedi Apprentice books, IIRC.

 

Uh? That was the Exile decision, no one else.

HK-47: Speculation: I believe Revan wanted you to face the Jedi Council, master. As if there was something that you would show them and possibly undermine their strength. Perhaps Revan wished the Council to see how far the Jedi had fallen. Knowing Revan, it was no doubt a strategic decision on many levels." Admitedly he does say that's his speculation, but knowing Revan (and how everyone uses the Exile), I wouldn't be surprised if it was true. And HK does act as Revan's mouthpiece in K2.

 

Point taken. Or not, I'm still reading through your post to find out the relation between being a manipulator and cutting someone's jaw deliberately.

Er, I never believed that Revan did cut off Malak's jaw... If that's not what your other post was about I apologize. *blush* I thought you were talking about Revan being responsible for Telos' destruction?

 

Indeed. But you still haven't answered the question: Why Revan did that?

Just to be clear, did what? Destory Telos? See above quote by Atris.

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Atris: “It was always intended for the Jedi to retreat to Telos should Dantooine be attacked - taking all their lore with them. We could not allow the tragedy at Ossus to happen again.”

Kreia: “Such an act marked Telos for destruction. It is why the Sith came here, though the fleet commanders did not know why. It is why Revan ordered its destruction to mark the beginning of the Jedi Civil War. It was a message that there would be no place for the Jedi to retreat, to hide. I would not be surprised if Revan left other gifts beneath the surface of the planet - much can be buried beneath graveyards that will never be found.”

Is the Kreia line part of the cut content? I don't remember it on the game. Then, excuse me if I don't take it on such consideration because, what's undone is undone.

 

"Before the war, Jedi who failed their training were sent to the fields of Telos, to serve the galaxy... not as Jedi Knights, but as farmers and laborers."~ Kreia. This is also backed up in the EU, by the Jedi Apprentice books, IIRC.

Yes, I remember that. But still, that and Atris lines regarding the telosian Academy, makes me wonder if Malak knew about the (at least the exact location of) Academy and retreat place or bombarded the planet, hoping that he would hit his target.

Admitedly he does say that's his speculation, but knowing Revan (and how everyone uses the Exile), I wouldn't be surprised if it was true. And HK does act as Revan's mouthpiece in K2.

Not more than T3 does. Remember that HK didn't knew about the Navicomputer. That said, HK could be only, indeed, speculating, not telling a secret from Revan on a cryptic way.

 

 

And regarding the final two quotes, I just confused the topics, I beg you pardon and, please, don't take it in consideration. I guess I'm just too tired today...

[Melly]

Is the Kreia line part of the cut content? I don't remember it on the game. Then, excuse me if I don't take it on such consideration because, what's undone is undone.

Yeah, it's cut content (unfortunately) so if you want to ignore it that's fine.

 

Yes, I remember that. But still, that and Atris lines regarding the telosian Academy, makes me wonder if Malak knew about the (at least the exact location of) Academy and retreat place or bombarded the planet, hoping that he would hit his target.

If you disregard the quotes by Atris and Kreia that I posted before, it could be read that way. I still don't like it though.

 

Not more than T3 does. Remember that HK didn't knew about that (Man, did I forgot the name) "thing" that keeps track of the locations the ship have been to? That said, HK could be only, indeed, speculating, not telling a secret from Revan on a cryptic way.

Navicomputer. I'm kinda divided on this theory myself. I think it was the Exile's choice to go back to the Council, but Revan could have stopped her and didn't. Perhaps this is all that HK is really getting at, that Revan let her go to prove a point and strike doubt into the Jedi. If that's the case then it certainly worked. Atris says when Handmaiden- or is it one of her sisters? I don't know they all look alike to me- askes: "Was she important to you, once?" and Atris replies: "We all have our heroes. And when we watch them fall, we die inside. She made a choice once... and I did not. The day we judged her, I stood in the chamber, and she was... she was so right. She was so certain of it, I doubted myself." And Atris wasn't the only one to feel that way, Zez-Kai Ell did, too.

 

And regarding the final two quotes, I just confused the topics, I beg you pardon and, please, don't take it in consideration. I guess I'm just too tired today...

S'kay.

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If you disregard the quotes by Atris and Kreia that I posted before, it could be read that way. I still don't like it though.

Yeah, of course Kreia lines give it all away, but even if we accept Atris', it won't invalidate the theory that Malak did knew about the Hidden Academy, or at least a Jedi conclave, but not exactly where it was. To keep it on the safe side, he just bombed the hell out of the planet. Forgot the poles, though.

 

Navicomputer.

Ah, thank you very much. Man, I'm a wreck indeed.

I'm kinda divided on this theory myself. I think it was the Exile's choice to go back to the Council, but Revan could have stopped her and didn't. Perhaps this is all that HK is really getting at, that Revan let her go to prove a point and strike doubt into the Jedi. If that's the case then it certainly worked.

But Revan couldn't anticipate Exile's very survival, could he/she? The Exile cut him/herself from the Force willingly, it's clear that, when the Mass Shadow Generator was activated, Revan didn't expect anyone to survive; the ships and men that were part of the task-force to Malachor V was even composed of people as to which loyalty towards Revan was on doubt.

 

S'kay.

Thank you.

[Non-false Jedi]

I dunno they were fine crew-members, but both had their own faults. Carth complained too much, and Atton almost appeared that he didn't seem to be interested in really much of ANYthing except Pazzack pretty much after Telos.

[TKA-001]

That's more from a lack of dialogue options than a problem with the character itself.

[encinodude]

I would've voted Atton. Both are great men in their own right, but Atton has a significant advantage on Carth for me in that most of his flaws are an act while Carth can get genuinely unbearably whiny. Whining and whining and whining about things nobody else reacts the same way to. Plus Atton

captured/killed/tortured Jedi on a regular basis and taught the Exile his techniques.

 

 

I'm in the camp that TSL is the better game writing-wise, so there may be a bias there.

 

Carth's VA > Atton's, though. Atton just sounded horrible and unconvincing when he was revealing his past. Probably should've gotten a more capable actor or rerecorded his lines until he got them right.

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Carth's VA > Atton's, though. Atton just sounded horrible and unconvincing when he was revealing his past. Probably should've gotten a more capable actor or rerecorded his lines until he got them right.

Though I agree that Raphael Sbarge did a much better work as Carth than Nicky Katt did as Atton, I don't think that the last one is particularly a bad voice actor.

 

And you've got to see Sbarge acting on Mass Effect. Wish he stayed with Carth only.

[encinodude]

Nicky Katt voiced Atton Rand? I had no idea. It's either the fault of the voice director or a lack of time for retakes, then. The man is a consistently good actor onscreen.

[CK51]

I liek both characters.

 

Carth had really really great voice acting, and I could emphasise with the characters.

 

Atton had bad voice acting, but his prsonality was all an act right? He was also really funny and I liked his character, and felt sorry for him being manipulated by Kreia.

 

TSL did have much better writing and rasied alot of philisophical points. If I was to write an essay on either of the games, I would choose TSL, despite the poitns of remdemption rasied in KOTOR.