Kreia's true identity

[i_shot_the_jedi]

I found it odd when searching through the most recent topic pages that there was no thread such as this (and I apologize if there is and I missed it...). So, here it is: what do you believe is Kreia's true identity?

 

There has been a great amount of discussion - much of it, I am sure, on these forums - over whether Kreia was indeed the fabled Jedi Master Arren Kae, mentioned briefly in Knights of the Old Republic II, and mother of the Handmaiden. On the little information we have to go on, the possibility is indeed quite likely - though not particularly strong.

 

Another popular theory is that Kreia is instead the similarly named Krynda Draay from the new comics. As they share numerous similarities, supporters of the theory believe that the story arc will conclude with the revelation that the two women are in fact the same person. However, this possibility is based on circumstantial evidence only, and nothing concrete linking the two has yet been revealed.

 

Krynda... possibly?

 

Or... has Kreia just always been Kreia, with only the one alter-ego: that of Darth Traya?

 

I am eager to hear your views.

[JCarter426]

Kreia's Arren Kae. At least that's what I think. I don't think she's Krynda (because she can't possibly be her), but I wouldn't be surprised if that turns out to be.

[i_shot_the_jedi]

Could you elaborate on why you don't think it could be Krynda please?

[JCarter426]

Well, for one, Krynda's way too old. Second, Kreia isn't half Miraluka. Those are the major two, though there are some other reasons.

[Son of Skywalker15]

Have you ever wondered why she could not see? Sure, she tells you that she didn't need to, but I don't recall her ever telling you how....

[TKA-001]

Kreia is Kreia. I don't give a damn whether or not that was their original intention. If it was, then it's a good thing it was cut.

[JCarter426]

Have you ever wondered why she could not see? Sure, she tells you that she didn't need to, but I don't recall her ever telling you how....

 

She specifically says that her eyes have atrophied (i.e. it's not because she's half Miraluka, because she isn't; and I doubt she'd refer to Visas as "the Miraluka" if she were one herself).

[Achilles]

Arren Kae.

 

I used to think that people that advocated this had too much time on their hands, but after reading Scorchy's walkthrough, I'm a believer.

 

EDIT: btw, after finally finishing my final (?) playthrough of KotOR last night, I fired up TSL. I literally cracked up when Kreia comments on how my "stance" gave me away as a Jedi during the first dialog. Reminded me of another promenient character in the game that places a great deal of emphasis on "stance" and just happens to be an Echani.

[Son of Skywalker15]

i.e. it's not because she's half Miraluka, because she isn't; and I doubt she'd refer to Visas as "the Miraluka" if she were one herself).

 

Now that you mention it, I do recall an instance where she states something about her eye wasting away and destroying, although they were unneeded to her.

 

I don't think she's a Miraluka; more specifically, Krynda Draay. I'm a believer in her being Kae.

[Q]

I think that Avellone intended for Kreia to be Arren Kae. I have thought this since my second or third playthrough.

 

Krynda Draay appears to be yet another awkward EU retcon intended to be Kreia because some friggin' genius didn't like Avellone's idea and decided to replace it with something more, well, awkward. Complete with a perfectly illogical and yet convenient reason as to why Kreia is blind.

 

God, how I hate the EU.

 

Who writes this crap? Monkeys?

[Son of Skywalker15]

I think that Avellone intended for Kreia to be Arren Kae. I have thought this since my second or third playthrough.

 

I got that impression too. However, mine actually stems from the interview on SW Knights a few months back with him. He declined to comment on it, but I think he did feel that connecting that would make a complete circle to the story.

[JCarter426]

Arren Kae.

 

I used to think that people that advocated this had too much time on their hands, but after reading Scorchy's walkthrough, I'm a believer.

 

EDIT: btw, after finally finishing my final (?) playthrough of KotOR last night, I fired up TSL. I literally cracked up when Kreia comments on how my "stance" gave me away as a Jedi during the first dialog. Reminded me of another promenient character in the game that places a great deal of emphasis on "stance" and just happens to be an Echani.

 

Yup, same here. It's the little things like that give the theory credibility.

 

Well, that, and...

 

I got that impression too. However, mine actually stems from the interview on SW Knights a few months back with him. He declined to comment on it, but I think he did feel that connecting that would make a complete circle to the story.

 

"Can't comment, but good catch" were his exact words. That pretty much seals the deal for me that the development team at least intended for her to be Kae.

[Totenkopf]

I thought that Kavar's reaction at the enclave tipped in that direction as well.

[Rev7]

I voted Arren Kae.

 

I have had some discusion on this topic before on the chatbox. It just seems so likely that that is who 'Kreia' really is. It just makes sense. But then again it raises may questions. One thing that I have wondered about was the possible comment that the Exile makes on the Handmaiden's mother.

 

Something along the lines of the Handmaiden's mother being beautiful? That is interesting to me. Another thing that I wonder about is why 'Kreia' doesn't necessarily like the Handmaiden that much.

[JCarter426]

Another thing that I wonder about is why 'Kreia' doesn't necessarily like the Handmaiden that much.

 

I always thought it was because Kreia blamed her for her exile, refusing to admit that it was because the students she taught were failures. Note that she claims Arren was exiled because of her child. Another reason would be that Brianna reminds Kreia of her past, of her failures, etc. Just a couple of theories for you.

[i_shot_the_jedi]

Ok, I'm seeing an imbalance in opinion here so I'll lay out a bit more of the Krynda theory.

 

Well, for one, Krynda's way too old. Second, Kreia isn't half Miraluka. Those are the major two, though there are some other reasons... She specifically says that her eyes have atrophied (i.e. it's not because she's half Miraluka, because she isn't; and I doubt she'd refer to Visas as "the Miraluka" if she were one herself).

 

You raise two very good points, and the major failing points of the theory: no, Kreia does not label herself as a half-Miraluka and according to Chris Avellone, Kreia was born around 4000BBY: about the same year as Lucien Draay, Krynda's son.

 

Nevertheless, these arguments are not enormously strong and it would be unfair to disqualify this theory on two negative points.

 

Firstly, Kreia's age is debateable. Avellone himself stated "like Yoda, who knows", so despite his "guess" of 50 years old, Kreia's age can still be labelled a mystery. I've seen guesses of anything between 50 and 80, and thus it would not be much of a stretch for Kreia and Krynda to be the same age, even if they were not the same person.

 

Secondly, considering the rarity of Miraluka - let alone half-Miraluka - and Kreia's tendency to lie, she could just be protecting her identity. Or, perhaps, she is only telling half truths, and upon her discovery of Force Sight, Krynda allowed her already distinctive eyes to atrophy:

 

"If only my father's blood had been stronger! I would gladly have given my eyes—and yours—for you to be able to see what the Miraluka see!"

 

Not a strong possibility, but one that should be considered. You stated that you "doubt she'd refer to Visas as 'the Miraluka' if she were one herself"; to which I must point out that Krynda has done it herself already (see the above quote). Kreia distances herself from other characters by giving them relevant nicknames; thus, if you will accept that she distances herself from her apparent daughter by giving her the belittling moniker "servant of Atris", you should also accept it as likely that she would distance herself from a member of the other possible half of her species; "the Blind One", "the Miraluka".

 

Furthermore, both Krynda and Kreia share powers of prognostication, "failed Padawans" of the more violent vein and have links of some kind to Revan. Also, if I may be so bold, I would assume that upon Zayne Carrick's revelation of Krynda's crimes and the crimes of her "Jedi Covenant", that she will be exiled during the Mandalorian Wars as Kreia is known to have been and possibly, as my son pointed out in the wookieepedia article, become "consumed by guilt, [and] question the validity of her unorthodox beliefs".

 

I consider both theories just as strong as each other; though at the moment the Kae theory has the weight of evidence. I suppose that only with the conclusion of the final Knights of the Old Republic comic story arc will we be able to prove or disprove the latter.

[Frankwright]

Your quote from Krynda Draay doesn't support your argument. She is using 'the Miraluka' to describe just that - the entire race collectively (if she was refering to a single individual as Kreia does, then it would be "what the Miraluka sees" rather than "what the Miraluka see". (If that's unclear, replace "the Miraluka" with Visas and see which version seems to be better) There is a drastic difference in meaning. One is refering to the group as a whole 'the Miraluka' and use of the noun is entirely appropriate as that is the group to which she refers. There is no easy way to refer to the Miraluka collectively otherwise. Kreia, on the other hand, uses "the Miraluka" in place of Visas' name. It is a pejorative term when Kreia uses, it is not in the quote you have provide from Krynda.

[i_shot_the_jedi]

Well Frank, I may be wrong - I frequently am - and you've highlighted a point that doesn't fit very well, which I thank you for; but in both cases Krynda and Kreia distance themselves from the Miraluka race (never mind the grammar, I apologize but that wasn't the intention of my focus), considering themselves more Human than Miraluka: in the quote Krynda refers to the Miraluka rather distantly and clearly does not count herself as part of the race; Kreia likewise referring to Visas Marr as "the Miraluka" rather than, for example, "the other Miraluka".

[Son of Skywalker15]

"Can't comment, but good catch" were his exact words. That pretty much seals the deal for me that the development team at least intended for her to be Kae.

 

Totally agree. Because the female Exile is canon, you don't get Brianna or entire back story, but the Master's reaction to her show that they knew her. In fact, they never say "Kreia" at all; Vrook/Kavar says, "You! I thought you died in the Mandalorian War." I have to play that scene over again, but the quote proves to me that she's not who she seems to be.

 

Also, Kae is mentioned in the female game. Mical tells you that she was Revan's Kae was the first, and last, trainer of Revan. Then, if you ask Kreia and have high influence, Kreia tells you she was Revan's first, and last, teacher.

 

So, while the intent was there, Kreia currently is "Kreia" until something comes and changes it officially.

 

I don't know why, but I'm finding it hard to remember all the little facts of Kotor II; perhaps I should re-play it soon, huh?

[Jvstice]

Also, Kae is mentioned in the female game. Mical tells you that she was Revan's Kae was the first, and last, trainer of Revan. Then, if you ask Kreia and have high influence, Kreia tells you she was Revan's first, and last, teacher.

 

Of course Kreia's Kae but I don't expect any definitive statements for at least another year or so if they do it in the comic at all, and probably not until they get around to K3 as a game.

[Son of Skywalker15]

Of course Kreia's Kae but I don't expect any definitive statements for at least another year or so if they do it in the comic at all, and probably not until they get around to K3 as a game

 

That was actually my next statement Like I said, Kreia will be Kreia until its placed in the EU that she is Kae, using the alias Kreia. Chris isn't going to say it, even if I asked him in the EUC interview.

 

Many things have to be placed into the EU for Kotor II; we know them, but the SW characters do not. How's that for dramatic irony, huh?

[i_shot_the_jedi]

I think that Avellone intended for Kreia to be Arren Kae. I have thought this since my second or third playthrough.

 

Krynda Draay appears to be yet another awkward EU ret-con intended to be Kreia because some friggin' genius didn't like Avellone's idea and decided to replace it with something more, well, awkward. Complete with a perfectly illogical reason as to why Kreia is blind.

 

God, how I hate the EU.

 

Who writes this crap? Monkeys?

 

Yes, retcons are irritating; though with this example, should Kreia be revealed to be Krynda Draay, it could not be considered a retcon as such as we do not know for sure what the official stance was in the first place...

 

Nevertheless, you raise a good point: perhaps Kae was intended to be Kreia originally, as many posters have stated, but that Krynda has since assumed the role because Kae's backstory was never fully completed.

 

Also, Kae is mentioned in the female game. Mical tells you that she was Revan's Kae was the first, and last, trainer of Revan. Then, if you ask Kreia and have high influence, Kreia tells you she was Revan's first, and last, teacher.

 

These are the exact quotes for reference:

 

"As a Padawan, Revan was trained by Master Kae, before she was exiled. Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that. And it is said that he went to his first - and final - master to learn how to leave the order entirely, as she had."

"He came to me, yes. Both before and after, before Revan knew himself. And after, in the times when Revan was coming into his own and learning he was more than he had been told. At one time, Revan was my Padawan. In times past, long ago. But Revan, when he had learned all he could, had other masters... that fool Zhar, and other Jedi on other planets. He learned from each. But in the end, he turned back to me. When he realized there was nothing more to be learned from the Jedi - except how one could leave them forever."

 

I must point out that at no point does Mical explicitly state that Kae is Kreia or that Kae was Revan's first teacher (only that he studied under her as a Padawan); and Kreia herself only states that she was the "first and final" master. This makes it all rather convoluted, and only through deduction can we assume that Mical is talking about the same person - Kreia - throughout. This is therefore only circumstantial evidence, and I feel that you are thus jumping to conclusions when the official word has only been a vague statement of dismissal.

[JCarter426]

Yes it's circumstantial--the circumstance being that they were the only two we know of that trained Revan as a padawan, and that he returned to both of them afterwards.

 

 

And making Kreia Krynda is still a retcon, because there are continuity conflicts.

[i_shot_the_jedi]

Yes it's circumstantial--the circumstance being that they were the only two we know of that trained Revan as a padawan

 

The statement "Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that" must indicate that he had at least two masters (which would be impossible in your reasoning of Kae and Kreia therefore being the same person, and there being no others). Therefore, we must come to the alternative conclusion that Revan was also taught as a Padawan (rather than a Knight) by the "other masters" Kreia mentioned, including Dorak and Zhar Lestin. You cannot have it both ways.

 

...and that he returned to both of them afterwards.

 

As I have stated above, Mical is extremely vague and it cannot be said for sure whether he means Arren Kae or Kreia as Kreia when he states "And it is said that he went to his first - and final - master to learn how to leave the order entirely, as she had". I believe we should again focus on the line "Strange, I do not recall who Revan's master was after that". Had this line not been included, the master he refers to would quite clearly have been Arren Kae and that would have been that. However, the way he speaks and his further beginning a new line with that great story-opener "it is said..." indicate that he may be, you could say, going off on a tangent. At no point, sir, does he say "Kae was Revan's first master", and thus this is not a strong enough piece of evidence to proove that Kreia is Arren Kae, especially if it is the very closest you can get to linking the two.

 

Again, I would like to state that I could be wrong and you absolutely right, and this is why I find that the Arren Kae theory still holds a lot of water. Nevertheless, without total confirmation or proper proof, you cannot state it to be as such; especially considering that as of yet there has been no outcome regarding Krynda.

 

EDIT: Hang on, it appears that my sources may not have been reliable as I had once thought, and I apologize. I'll keep the above comments for the time being until I can get confirmation. This, it appears, is another version of what Mical said:

 

Revan had many Masters. Zhar, Dorak, Master Kae before she left for the wars. Towards the end of her training, she sought out many to learn techniques. It is said that s/he returned to her first Master at the end of his/her training, in order to learn how s/he might best leave the order.

 

Nevertheless, in this version, I suppose I could allege that Master Kae is not even inferred to be the first master, being the last in the list. I would greatly appreciate verification of the right version before I go further in arguing the wrong quote, heh...

 

And making Kreia Krynda is still a retcon, because there are continuity conflicts.

 

Could you enlighten me please?

[Astor]

Wow... those are both some very interesting arguments, gents. But something just feels 'right' about Kae and Kreia being one and the same, I can't explain why, but it seems to make sense.

 

But, as I said, I'm not sure why.