Debate:: The True Sith (On Sunday!)

[The Source]

The Rule of Two is a "Modern Sith" invention. It is irrelevant to whatever Kreia was talking about. Revan can't be a True Sith because Revan's Sith Empire was the very thing that Kreia contrasted the "True Sith" to. It sounds like you are theorizing that the Kotor II "True Sith" are the same as the Post Ruusan Sith Order, which wouldn't make any sense in my eyes.

Actually, 'The Rule of Two' extends to the beginning. According to Bane's study from Revan and older Sith Masters, he discovered why 'The Rule of Two' was so important.

 

 

http://www.starwars.com/databank/organization/thesith/?id=eu

 

EDIT:: I just read that Darth Bane restructured the order, so it could survive well into the future. However, Bane learned of this advantage from interacting with Sith holocrons. The 'true Sith' of Korriban knew about the advantage of having limited numbers; thus, my logic behind the criteria still holds some weight.

[Lord Foley]

Your link doesn't have anything to say supporting you.... When in history was the rule of two actually used before Bane?

[DAWUSS]

As for consuming the Force...no, that was unique to Nihilus. According to statements made by Mr Avellone, the ancient Sith new how to feed off of other Force sensitives, but also knew that this power came with a price: the loss of identity, as is the case with Nihilus.

 

I thought the Exile could do the same thing, only because she cut herself off for so long, never ended up turning into another Darth Nihilus (and until refuted, I buy into the whole Nihilus-is-creation-of-the-Exile theory)

 

Kreia, on the other hand, used the Force to do her bidding. She knew that the will of the Force could control her, and so she set about to kill the Force in order to end that control. That makes her a "true" Sith.

 

I was under the notion that she was neither. She reclaimed her title of Darth Traya, yes, but I still am under the impression that she is neither Sith nor Jedi.

[The Source]

Your link doesn't have anything to say supporting you.... When in history was the rule of two actually used before Bane?

I edited the post above you. If you read "Knights of the Old Republic Darth Bane I", you will see where I got the information.

 

I was under the notion that she was neither. She reclaimed her title of Darth Traya, yes, but I still am under the impression that she is neither Sith nor Jedi.

You are correct. She is not a Sith or a Jedi. Kreia was exiled from both orders.

[DAWUSS]

Your link doesn't have anything to say supporting you.... When in history was the rule of two actually used before Bane?

 

Bane established the Rule of Two through Revan's philosophies. It may have been around before Bane (as Revan only had one apprentice), but it was Bane who put the rule in place

[JCarter426]

I thought the Exile could do the same thing, only because she cut herself off for so long, never ended up turning into another Darth Nihilus (and until refuted, I buy into the whole Nihilus-is-creation-of-the-Exile theory)

I only mean that Nihilus' followers didn't have that ability.

 

I was under the notion that she was neither. She reclaimed her title of Darth Traya, yes, but I still am under the impression that she is neither Sith nor Jedi.

Her actions and motivations may not seem to be Jedi or Sith, but her beliefs are Sith. And as we know, the Sith is a belief. She's certainly more Sith than Nihilus, Atris, or Sion, who let the Force take away their identity.

[Lord Foley]

Her actions and motivations may not seem to be Jedi or Sith, but her beliefs are Sith.

 

I'm not so sure. I agree more with The Source on this one: Kreia was simply an exile. She took the title of Darth Traya because "there must always be a Darth Traya." Kreia wanted to be free of the Force's will, and while Sith may feel the same way, I don't think that alone can really make her a Sith.

[The Source]

Bane established the Rule of Two through Revan's philosophies. It may have been around before Bane (as Revan only had one apprentice), but it was Bane who put the rule in place

Unfortunately, I do not know the whole Sith legacy. Did the older Sith Lords who are burried on Korriban, Dxun, and Yavin have one apprentice? I do not think you or I can actually answer this question. I can only speculate that they did, and they understood this logic of limiting their numbers. Darth Bane may have reintroduced the concept.

 

Revan most likely learned it from the past, and then gave his insight to Bane. Thus, the 'Rule of Two' does have its origins in the past. (If anyone is interested in our reference: "Knights of the Old republic: Darth Bane I"; Chapt. 23; pgs 282-284.)

[Emperor Devon]

Her actions and motivations may not seem to be Jedi or Sith, but her beliefs are Sith.

 

On the surface, her Darwinian 'survival of the fittest' beliefs do seem rather Sith-ish, but ultimately they aren't. While most Sith equate strength with seizing every possible advantage and becoming as powerful as possible, Kreia saw it as being strong without relying on an external source of power (ie the Force).

 

I wouldn't call her a Grey Jedi, or even a Force-nihilist. Kreia really is just Kreia - it wouldn't have been Avellone's style to make her yet another Sith.

[JCarter426]

Unfortunately, I do not know the whole Sith legacy. Did the older Sith Lords who are burried on Korriban, Dxun, and Yavin have one apprentice?

Er...no, they didn't. In fact, Dxun and Yavin weren't Sith wolds until after the Sith Empire fell.

 

The Sith Empire of Korriban was more like Revan's, with one Dark Lord of the Sith, and many other under him. No master or apprentice, though. All the Sith except for Naga Sadow were wiped out, and so he retreated to Yavin. After he died, the fallen Jedi Freedon Nadd discovered Sadow's spirit on Yavin IV, and Sadow taught him everything about the Sith. This was the first master/apprentice scenario, but it still wasn't a Rule of Two situation, since Sadow was long dead.

 

Freedon Nadd eventually conquered Onderon and died there as a king. Nadd's spirit continued to live on, corrupting the Keto cousins, Exar Kun, and Ulic Qel-Droma, until Kun destroyed Nadd's spirit. Nadd managed to warn Satal Keto about Kun, sparking a war between Kun and Qel-Droma. But when the two finally met, the spirit of Marka Ragnos intervened, declaring Kun Dark Lord of the Sith, with Qel-Droma as his apprentice, officially establishing what would be the Rule of Two.

 

Revan eventually discovered Korriban and Malachor, basing his empire off of both True Sith teachings as well as those of the Sith Empire on Korriban. Revan's empire was similar to Kun's with one Dark Lord, one apprentice under the Dark Lord, and dozens of other Dark Jedi.

 

Bane eventually found Korriban, and learned from the failures of Sith before him, eventually establishing the Rule of Two.

 

EDIT:

 

On the surface, her Darwinian 'survival of the fittest' beliefs do seem rather Sith-ish, but ultimately they aren't. While most Sith equate strength with seizing every possible advantage and becoming as powerful as possible, Kreia saw it as being strong without relying on an external source of power (ie the Force).

 

I wouldn't call her a Grey Jedi, or even a Force-nihilist. Kreia really is just Kreia - it wouldn't have been Avellone's style to make her yet another Sith.

Heh. Good point. Eh...maybe she's not a Sith. I don't know. But Sion, Nihilus, and Atris certainly aren't.

[The Source]

Heh. Good point. Eh...maybe she's not a Sith. I don't know... Atris certainly aren't.

Atris is a Sith. If anyone of them would be considered a 'true Sith', Atris fits the characteristics. She was learning from the Sith Holocrons, which were burried by the ancient Sith Lords. She also let her emotions drive anger and fear. Jedi learn to control their emotions, and Atris didn't have any type of control. She was using cunning, deciet, and manipulation. She also had an a possible apprentice in the Handmaiden. 'The Rule' of two strikes again. According to Kreia and Atris's conversation, Atris was taking the mantle of Darth Trayia (sp?). Out of all the Sith that were in the game, Atris was a 'true Sith' by every way and means. All she needed to do was confess it, and Kreia helped her to realize this.

[JCarter426]

Atris is a Sith. If anyone of them would be considered a 'true Sith', Atris fits the characteristics. She was learning from the Sith Holocrons, which were burried by the ancient Sith Lords. She was using cunning, deciet, and manipulation.

She wasn't any of those. Her plan was even worse than Vrook, Kavar, and Ell's; she claimed that if the Sith fought a Jedi, they would be defeated. She tried to draw the Sith out at Katarr, which led to the destruction of the Jedi Order. Good job, Atris. When she tried it again ( ), she still failed; Kreia was the true manipulator who led the Sith to Telos.

 

According to Kreia and Atris's conversation, Atris was taking the mantle of Darth Trayia (sp?).

Go play the game again, and talk to Atris after you defeat her. Even she'll admit that Kreia had deceived her.

[The Source]

She wasn't any of those. Her plan was even worse than Vrook, Kavar, and Ell's; she claimed that if the Sith fought a Jedi, they would be defeated. She tried to draw the Sith out at Katarr, which led to the destruction of the Jedi Order. Good job, Atris. When she tried it again ( ), she still failed; Kreia was the true manipulator who led the Sith to Telos.

Actually, the conversation between Atris and Kreia says most of the story. Kreia had her confess about being a Sith long before Kreia came around. Atris admits that she was no longer 'Atris', and the Sith holocrons have given her insight. Kriea may have been a manipulator, but it was Atris's experiences and exposure to the Sith holocrons that turned her to the darkside. Atris's emotions for the Exile were evidant of the fall, and those emotions were around during the Exile's day of exile. The Sith holocrons just helped bring it to the surface. All Kreia had to do was put things into motion.

[JCarter426]

Exactly. Atris was turned to the dark side; she didn't fall on her own accord like Revan or Kreia. The dark side consumed her and destroyed her identity. Atris isn't a "true" Sith; Kreia just fooled her into thinking she was.

[Emperor Devon]

Eh...maybe she's not a Sith. I don't know.

 

What's there that supports she is, then?

 

Sion, Nihilus, and Atris certainly aren't.

 

On the contrary, Sion was in every sense of the word. A bloodthirsty brute so dependent on his perceived source of power, and so obsessed with being strong that he's been rendered utterly helpless and weak for it.

 

She also had an a possible apprentice in the Handmaiden. 'The Rule' of two strikes again.

 

She also expressed an explicit desire to start a new order of Jedi/Sith, while nothing in the game indicates she intended such for the Handmaiden.

[The Source]

She also expressed an explicit desire to start a new order of Jedi/Sith, while nothing in the game indicates she intended such for the Handmaiden.

Thats why I said 'possible'. Hehehe...

[Non-false Jedi]

Darth Bane formally established the Rule of Two, basing it loosingly on practices that Exar Kun and Revan had for the imediate subordinates. But neither Exar Kun nor Darth Revan REALLY followed the rule of two. They had armies of Sith at their command.

[Emperor Devon]

Thats why I said 'possible'. Hehehe...

 

It's possible if you don't care to gather any evidence to support the possibilities you've thought up.

 

Btw, Revan was a cross-dresser. It's possible, nothing says otherwise.

[The Source]

Darth Bane formally established the Rule of Two, basing it loosingly on practices that Exar Kun and Revan had for the imediate subordinates. But neither Exar Kun nor Darth Revan REALLY followed the rule of two. They had armies of Sith at their command.

I will have to do more research on the 'Rule of Two'. I only know Exar Kun and Revan's story from the game. I know that there is more written about Yavin in Keven Anderson's triology. I will have to read more about the Sith past.

 

It's possible if you don't care to gather any evidence to support the possibilities you've thought up.

 

Btw, Revan was a cross-dresser. It's possible, nothing says otherwise.

Funny. Lol...

If I remember correctly, the Jedi can almost sense each other. If Atris had surounded herself with non-force users, she would have most likely sensed what the Handmaiden was about. Plus, the Sith usually make their apprentices suffer. Since the Handmaiden had another mother, Atris would have known who her mother was. Making the Handmaiden suffer from exposing her differences can have its benifits.

 

For those of you who are just joining us, we are talking about:

http://lucasforums.com/showpost.php?p=2471431&postcount=23

[JCarter426]

If I remember correctly, the Jedi can almost sense each other. If Atris had surounded herself with non-force users, she would have most likely sensed what the Handmaiden was about.

Atris taught the Handmaidens to block out the Force. As Kreia comments, even if any of them were Force sensitive, no one would know it, because such techniques make them deaf to the Force.

[Emperor Devon]

Funny. Lol...

 

Not just funny, an entirely possible assumption given your line of reasoning.

 

If I remember correctly, the Jedi can almost sense each other. {snip}

 

The errors in that paragraph notwithstanding, don't see what that has to do with your original post. Knowledge of the Handmaiden's heritage =/= desire to have anything become of it.

[Kas'!m]

Darth Bane formally established the Rule of Two, basing it loosingly on practices that Exar Kun and Revan had for the imediate subordinates. But neither Exar Kun nor Darth Revan REALLY followed the rule of two. They had armies of Sith at their command.

 

Sith or Dark Jedi? Because I don't remember any of Kun's or Revan's followers being referred to as Sith Lords.

[The Source]

Not just funny, an entirely possible assumption given your line of reasoning.

 

The errors in that paragraph notwithstanding, don't see what that has to do with your original post. Knowledge of the Handmaiden's heritage =/= desire to have anything become of it.

In order for what I have said to be an error, there should be information to prove otherwise. At the moment, we don't have the information to support or dissprove what I said. As for my comments about sensing another Jedi, (Return of the Jedi Reference: For those who are wondering), I think it is very insightful in making the connection. If Atris knew Handmaiden's mother and father was a force user, she would also have known that Handmaiden was a potential. Atris was trying to create another Sith/Jedi enclave. In order for it to be successful, Atris would need an apprentice or set of apprentices to make it work. Since she was under the influence of the Sith Holocrons, I am willing to make the assumption that Handmaiden was in waiting.

[Kas'!m]

Where in the game does it say or insinuate that Yusanis was Force sensitive?

[JCarter426]

If Atris knew Handmaiden's mother and father was a force user, she would also have known that Handmaiden was a potential.

There's no evidence that Atris knew about Arren Kae. Quite the contrary, seeing as Brianna never tells anyone because she's ashamed of it.

 

Atris was trying to create another Sith/Jedi enclave. In order for it to be successful, Atris would need an apprentice or set of apprentices to make it work.

That's the whole point of Atris; she didn't have any intention of rebuilding the Jedi or the Sith. She taught her students to resist the Force, but not to use it. She had to be stopped because she was consolidating all Jedi/Sith knowledge in order to preserve it...which would only prevent others from learning the ways of either Jedi or Sith--like Mical, who found the records on Dantooine to be empty, because someone had gotten there before him.