Achilles Posted June 8, 2008 Posted June 8, 2008 No takers on the 10 questions that every intelligent Christian must answer, so perhaps we'll have better luck with this one:
EnderWiggin Posted June 8, 2008 Posted June 8, 2008 How the heck do you expect me (a person of religion) to respond to that? Your youtube friend has made it quite clear: Anyone who is intelligent will realize that Jesus is imaginary, and all other arguments are but excuses. The condescending language and oversimplified thought process is very put-offing. _EW_
Achilles Posted June 8, 2008 Author Posted June 8, 2008 EnderWiggin said: How the heck do you expect me (a person of religion) to respond to that? However you would like to, my friend. EnderWiggin said: Your youtube friend has made it quite clear: Anyone who is intelligent will realize that Jesus is imaginary, and all other arguments are but excuses.Could you please help me understand what flaws exist with his reasoning or arguments? EnderWiggin said: The condescending language and oversimplified thought process is very put-offing.Re: condescension - how was his language condescending? Re: "oversimplification" - oversimplified? You'll need to help me understand how you came to this conclusion as well, please. Thanks in advance for your response.
EnderWiggin Posted June 8, 2008 Posted June 8, 2008 Achilles said: However you would like to, my friend. Well then, this is how I'm going to: No. I've seen what happens when theism/deism/atheism debates get started on LF and I'm not going to play. Sorry, but maybe next time. Nothing personal, though. _EW_
Achilles Posted June 8, 2008 Author Posted June 8, 2008 EnderWiggin said: Well then, this is how I'm going to: No. But you already did! You posted to let us know that you won't be posting?
EnderWiggin Posted June 8, 2008 Posted June 8, 2008 I posted to tell you that your video made some pretty large leaps (of faith, one might say ) and that I disagreed. But now, I've thought better of it, because I tend to not stay as calm when discussing religion. I'd rather not post, and us stay on good terms. _EW_
TKA-001 Posted June 8, 2008 Posted June 8, 2008 No offense, but what is the point of this type of discussion supposed to be? The way I see it, nothing good or interesting can come of them.
Achilles Posted June 8, 2008 Author Posted June 8, 2008 EnderWiggin said: I posted to tell you that your video made some pretty large leaps He quoted the bible chapter and verse. No leaps were made whatsoever. If you don't like what he said or would otherwise prefer not to discuss it, that's one thing. To parse out unsubstantiated claims that there is something wrong with the arguments presented though is something else entirely. Even if you choose not to discuss the topic, I hope that you will at least be willing to consider my comment above nonetheless. Take care! TKA-001 said: No offense, but what is the point of this type of discussion supposed to be? Perfect world? A christian participates, sees that the arguments are sound, and subsequently gives up his or her superstitious traditions. What I like to think I'm settling for? People not that terribly religious but have grown up within a religious tradition see this discussion, realize that there doubts were well founded, and are inspired to speak out against irrational thinking where ever they find it. TKA-001 said: The way I see it, nothing good or interesting can come of them.You are welcome to your opinion of course. I think that if such discussions can do anything remotely like either of the scenarios above, then much good has come of them. That's my 2 cents.
El Sitherino Posted June 8, 2008 Posted June 8, 2008 Note to posters. If a topic is of unworthy discussion then it may be in your best interest ,and that of the forums, to not post in said topic. If you disagree with a point made in a discussion thread, it is common courtesy and sense to reply with reasonings to your point. It cannot be in any way a discussion if you simply say "I disagree". Otherwise it becomes a waste of time and my moderating abilities. Enjoy your tea, Gentlemen.
Tyrion Posted June 9, 2008 Posted June 9, 2008 There's enough historical evidence in religious texts(the bible, the koran) and secular references(Roman records) that more or less prove Jesus was a real historical figure. There isn't much modern evidence that suggest he is the son of God, though.
Achilles Posted June 9, 2008 Author Posted June 9, 2008 Tyrion said: That being said, there's enough historical evidence in religious texts(the bible, the koran) and secular references(Roman records) that more or less prove Jesus was a real historical figure. I'd be interested in knowing which sources you're referring too. Every source I've looked at makes reference to the existence of christianity, but that isn't the same thing (any more than finding evidence of a Harry Potter fan club is evidence of there being a real Harry Potter). As such (again unless you have access to something that I haven't seen), there isn't any reason to assume that there was a historical Jesus. Tyrion said: There isn't much modern evidence that suggest he is the son of God, though.True. If there isn't any evidence for a historical Jesus, then the whole "son of god" thing falls apart too. However, even if there were evidence for a historical Jesus (specifically that jesus), then the question of divinity would still need to be addressed.
Rev7 Posted June 9, 2008 Posted June 9, 2008 I simply think that you are mis-interpreting the scriptures. I would explain a little bit more, but I really need to get to bed soon. Quote If Jesus were real he would appear to each of us. I certainly know that he has appeared to me. I believe that he only 'appears' to us if we have a open-heart and truly believe in Him. Quote Instead your prayer is ignored. Really? Is there any proof to this? I certainly know that this is not what you want to hear Achilles. Christianity is a religion of faith. That is all that it comes down to. Thank you for reading.
Achilles Posted June 9, 2008 Author Posted June 9, 2008 Rev7 said: I simply think that you are mis-interpreting the scriptures. I would explain a little bit more, but I really need to get to bed soon. I look forward to your reply after you've had an opportunity to rest. Rev7 said: I certainly know that he has appeared to me. I believe that he only 'appears' to us if we have a open-heart and truly believe in Him. A physical manifestation that could only be jesus appeared to you (hopefully with witnesses)? Rev7 said: Really? Is there any proof to this? Well, unless jesus physically appears to you, then yes. Rev7 said: I certainly know that this is not what you want to hear Achilles. Christianity is a religion of faith. That is all that it comes down to. As is islam, paganism, ancestor worship, hinduism, and any other religion you can think of. I'm not seeing how that makes it special or unique...or, most importantly, true. Rev7 said: Thank you for reading.My pleasure. Look forward to seeing you again soon.
Tyrion Posted June 9, 2008 Posted June 9, 2008 Achilles said: I'd be interested in knowing which sources you're referring too. Every source I've looked at makes reference to the existence of christianity, but that isn't the same thing (any more than finding evidence of a Harry Potter fan club is evidence of there being a real Harry Potter). After further review(using Wikipedia, naturally), it appears that most early external sources do reference only Christians, not Jesus personally.
Achilles Posted June 9, 2008 Author Posted June 9, 2008 I appreciate you looking anyway. Thank you, sir! EDIT: Btw, Tyrion, you might enjoy the movie The God Who Wasn't There (assuming that you haven't seen it already).
Acrylic Posted June 9, 2008 Posted June 9, 2008 I'd say Jesus being imaginary is a bunch of crap. How can a religion be started about someone who never existed? Also, he is mentioned in more than one type of religion: Islam, even. The thing I DON'T believe though is that he was anything more than a man. Messenger, maybe, but God or 1/3 God....I don't think so.
Det. Bart Lasiter Posted June 9, 2008 Posted June 9, 2008 Acrylic said: I'd say Jesus being imaginary is a bunch of crap. How can a religion be started about someone who never existed?Ever play the game "Telephone"?
Achilles Posted June 9, 2008 Author Posted June 9, 2008 Acrylic said: I'd say Jesus being imaginary is a bunch of crap. How can a religion be started about someone who never existed? Also, he is mentioned in more than one type of religion: Islam, even.Are you arguing therefore that the titans must have really existed? The pantheon of Greek gods? The Roman gods? The Norse gods? The Egyptian gods? The Japanese gods? All the various gods from Native American mythology? Shall I go on? I mean, how can a religion be started about someone who never existed? (hint: you can't have it both ways) Acrylic said: The thing I DON'T believe though is that he was anything more than a man. Messenger, maybe, but God or 1/3 God....I don't think so.Can you point to any evidence whatsoever that supports the argument that a man named Jesus existed where the stories said he did? The same sources that tell us of his existence also tell us that he was divine, so arguing that he was real but not divine seems an awful lot like cherry picking.
EnderWiggin Posted June 9, 2008 Posted June 9, 2008 Achilles said: Can you point to any evidence whatsoever that supports the argument that a man named Jesus existed where the stories said he did? The same sources that tell us of his existence also tell us that he was divine, so arguing that he was real but not divine seems an awful lot like cherry picking. Now you're arguing the other side? Does it really have to be all or nothing? Achilles said: christianity... that jesus ...unless jesus physically appears... islam, hinduism,... Are they typos, are are you trying to make a point as to your regard for Jesus & religion? _EW_
Achilles Posted June 9, 2008 Author Posted June 9, 2008 EnderWiggin said: Now you're arguing the other side? Not at all. What makes you say that? EnderWiggin said: Does it really have to be all or nothing?Yes, what the source asserts is either true or it is not. That's just the way things work. That isn't my decision. EnderWiggin said: Are they typos, are are you trying to make a point as to your regard for Jesus & religion?Don't ask what I do with dollar bills and sharpies.
Rev7 Posted June 9, 2008 Posted June 9, 2008 Okay, sorry that it has been a while, but I have been at school all day. Achilles said: A physical manifestation that could only be jesus appeared to you (hopefully with witnesses)? You see, Jesus appeared to me. Not physically, but He has appeared to me through acts, He has appeared by talking to me, ect. Is it any different than air? In my case, you know that it is there, but you cannot actually see it. Quote Well, unless jesus physically appears to you, then yes. Okay...that doesn't nescisarily make sense to me. Could you please explain a little bit more? Quote As is islam, paganism, ancestor worship, hinduism, and any other religion you can think of. I'm not seeing how that makes it special or unique...or, most importantly, true. You will probably think that this is irrelevant, but I will still say it. Romans 12:3 KJV said: For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Myself said: I simply think that you are mis-interpreting the scriptures. Okay. I will get started... 1 Corinthians 15:3-8 (King James Version) said: 3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. Well, the same thing can be said abour prayer. If God is real, then how can he answer all of our prayers? There are still mysteries, that cannot be solved about Him. We cannot know everything about Him. (IMO) Matthew 18:19-20 (King James Version) said: 19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Well, I believe that this is His presense. An "annointing"? As for the anything part, that doesn't necsicarily mean that he has to 'grant' it. I know that you will just say that I have just made up another "excuse". This is my opinion, and aren't we all allowed to have our opinion. I know that you have your opinion on this matter (as well as others), and I have my opinion on these matters too. We all believe different things to be true. I want to let you know that I respect your opinion. Quote My pleasure. Look forward to seeing you again soon. As do I.
Achilles Posted June 10, 2008 Author Posted June 10, 2008 Rev7 said: Okay, sorry that it has been a while, but I have been at school all day. No problem Rev7 said: You see, Jesus appeared to me. Not physically, but He has appeared to me through acts, He has appeared by talking to me, ect.Acts can be coincidental and "voices" can be the symptoms of psychosis. Per the video (and scripture) we know that jesus can appear to people and that he has appeared to people. So what good reason do we have to explain why he hasn't appeared to you? Rev7 said: Is it any different than air? In my case, you know that it is there, but you cannot actually see it. We have evidence for the existence of air, therefore the analogy does not apply Rev7 said: Okay...that doesn't nescisarily make sense to me. Could you please explain a little bit more? If you prayed for jesus to appear and he did not, then your prayer was not answered. Therefore we know that your prayer was ignored. Rev7 said: You will probably think that this is irrelevant, but I will still say it. <snip> This doesn't address my point. Other religions require faith as well, therefore you cannot argue that christianity is somehow unique in this regard or that requiring faith makes it true. It requires faith to believe that invisible fairies ride around in my shirt pocket too, but that doesn't mean that they exist. Rev7 said: Okay. I will get started... <snip> Well, the same thing can be said abour prayer. If God is real, then how can he answer all of our prayers? There are still mysteries, that cannot be solved about Him. We cannot know everything about Him. (IMO) That doesn't tell me anything. The passage clearly states that jesus can appear to people and has appeared to people. Are you disputing that? Rev7 said: Well, I believe that this is His presense. An "annointing"? As for the anything part, that doesn't necsicarily mean that he has to 'grant' it. Gee, that sounds very similar to Excuse #2 Rev7 said: I know that you will just say that I have just made up another "excuse". This is my opinion, and aren't we all allowed to have our opinion. I know that you have your opinion on this matter (as well as others), and I have my opinion on these matters too. We all believe different things to be true. I want to let you know that I respect your opinion. We are entitled to our own opinions but not our own facts. I understand that it is your opinion that he has misinterpreted those passages, however you haven't really presented an argument showing how he misinterpreted them or show why we should accept your opinion over his. Take care.
M@RS Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 Achilles said: If you prayed for jesus to appear and he did not, then your prayer was not answered. Therefore we know that your prayer was ignored. Now you have a little bit mad...to this quote, yes it wasn't answered, but not because he doesn't exist, it's because he didn't feel it would help you...for example say I prayed for a Porsche, would he give to me, it depends on how I am, if I always take take take, and never give back, then no, I'm not going to get one, if I'm always giving in tithes and offerings, then I have a chance of getting one, it all depends on the person, and the consequence...
Achilles Posted June 10, 2008 Author Posted June 10, 2008 M@RS said: Now you have a little bit mad...to this quote, yes it wasn't answered, but not because he doesn't exist, it's because he didn't feel it would help you...for example say I prayed for a Porsche, would he give to me, it depends on how I am, if I always take take take, and never give back, then no, I'm not going to get one, if I'm always giving in tithes and offerings, then I have a chance of getting one, it all depends on the person, and the consequence...We aren't talking about a Porsche. We're talking about someone that, according to scripture: 1) Can appear to us 2) Has appeared to others 3) Is already among us Not asking for a car. Not asking for money. Just asking him to do something that he (allegedly) can do and has (allegedly) already done.
M@RS Posted June 10, 2008 Posted June 10, 2008 Can you not read the "For Example" part, if not I'll make it bigger...
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