EnderWiggin Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 I'm going to go over each Council member and give my opinion on them... Atris: An arrogant, pathetic, detestable creature. Beyond redemption because her belief in the jedi code was so strong that she ignored everything that it represented. I despised her most because she was like Vrook... only with nothing to back her beliefs. She chose the darkside, so I always leave her to choke on her own vomit in the end. She did what she thought was right and was ambitious. She made a mistake. It happens. Doesn't change my vote. _EW_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Yuthura Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 You're right. I've wasted too much time thinking of this. There's no point in arguing over a fictional world. I still think I'm right and there's no logic in this. Thanks, jonathan7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 You're right. I've wasted too much time thinking of this. There's no point in arguing over a fictional world. I still think I'm right and there's no logic in this. Thanks, jonathan7. No worries We all have our vision of the KotOR era universe, especially given it's an RPG. They key difference is that we all have our own version, and then there is also the "cannon" (aka horrible) version. As for a lot of the Jedi Council, if Revan is DS in KotOR then the council all are stupid; as they can't see it. It is however slightly different if Revan is LS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totenkopf Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Don't know that I'd say stupid. Perhaps more like unlucky. They were clearly incapable of defeating Malak on their own, hence the desperate attempt to brainwash Revan as their "Hail Mary" pass. Didn't care for Vrook b/c he was overly arrogant and too stubborn to correct his own mistakes. Aspects of his personality are almost borderline sith-like. His arrogance, contempt and quick temper being but 3 examples. Vash, on the other hand, gets some credit for at least recognizing that the fault of the failure lay with more than the fallen jedi themselves (as did, I suspect, Kavar and ZKE). Got the distinct impression that the council would have been about as useless fighting the Mandos as they were against the sith. The seemed to have rationalized themselves into a kind of cowardly slumber in the face of great threats. Yeah, they tried to sound high-minded (but "fools rush in where angels FEAR to tread" might have sized up their real outlook). Even in the face of the advancing Sith threat in TSL, they seemed content to merely try to punish the Exile out of a sense of fear of what they thought he (or she) represented than in actually trying to confront the looming danger. Frankly, demonstrating that either they were spiteful or had poor strategic and tactical sense. But, hey, remember that all of our povs here are subjective........(ie you're as likely to convince me I'm wrong as I'm you). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev7 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 We are so p[r]etty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 You missed an R out there Rev, darling. We are so pretty. Fixed. Don't know that I'd say stupid. Perhaps more like unlucky. They were clearly incapable of defeating Malak on their own, hence the desperate attempt to brainwash Revan as their "Hail Mary" pass. Didn't care for Vrook b/c he was overly arrogant and too stubborn to correct his own mistakes. Aspects of his personality are almost borderline sith-like. His arrogance, contempt and quick temper being but 3 examples. Vash, on the other hand, gets some credit for at least recognizing that the fault of the failure lay with more than the fallen jedi themselves (as did, I suspect, Kavar and ZKE). Got the distinct impression that the council would have been about as useless fighting the Mandos as they were against the sith. The seemed to have rationalized themselves into a kind of cowardly slumber in the face of great threats. Yeah, they tried to sound high-minded (but "fools rush in where angels FEAR to tread" might have sized up their real outlook). Even in the face of the advancing Sith threat in TSL, they seemed content to merely try to punish the Exile out of a sense of fear of what they thought he (or she) represented than in actually trying to confront the looming danger. Frankly, demonstrating that either they were spiteful or had poor strategic and tactical sense. But, hey, remember that all of our povs here are subjective........(ie you're as likely to convince me I'm wrong as I'm you). Generally I agree with this all but it's missing some green love. Big up Vandar T; I pity da fool that crosses Revan! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev7 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Oh, sorry. Fix'd! I am a guy, BTW there jonathon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonathan7 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Oh, sorry. Fix'd! I am a guy, BTW there jonathon. Yeah; we have known each other for what? 2 1/2 years, I had picked that up in that time Looking very sexeh, too, in your avatar Mr. Clean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev7 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Thank you very much. =} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheExile Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 You shouldput another poll: Who's your least fav Council Member... Epic duel between Atris and Vrook. But I hate Atris more... She fell for the DS and with apparently no reason... Kreia didn't corrupted her, as Atris admits, she has been falling for years in quiet... And she claims that Exile is a DSer, while in cannon- and in my savegames - she is LSer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totenkopf Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Looking very sexeh, too, in your avatar Mr. Clean. Thank you very much. =} Man.....would you to puhlease get a room. J7--you'd have to "big him up" just to look him staight in the eye. Actually, didn't make any comments about K1 bunch or Atris. Atris, for obvious reasons (betrayer and female conterpart of Vrook) and the K1 crew b/c you don't see them that much (excepting Vrook in TSL) in game. Vandar, the Yoda of yesteryear, seemed genial enough. Can't really say too much more than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnseyy Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I say Kavar because he seemed like the most understanding and least judgemental. My LEAST favourite is Vrook. Just eurhgh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Yuthura Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Okay... I hate Atris much more than Vrook. Vrook is displayed like a military officer and being harsh to his followers in order to strengthen them for what's out there. I would say he was a very capable jedi, but he often did not hold himself to his own standards. He seemed so dedicated to the jedi that he refused to believe that anything opposing them were just. Even when he does admit his failure, he would say it was his fault for not stopping Revan/Exile before they fell. That's not him admitting his error, but telling his enemies that they were wrong... again. Atris is like Vrook, only she's hypocritical and loves to bend to truth to whatever shape best suits her. She wanted to follow the Exile, but was too scared to defy the Council. Even when the Exile returned, Atris went against she once believed. A belief is supposed to be everlasting and rigid... Atris's beliefs were extremely dynamic. In addition to that, Atris fell to the darkside because of greed. She loved having power and wanted to have all the power of the order to herself. That's why she wanted to lure the Masters on Dantoine... to be wiped out while she stayed on Telos. She didn't simply ruin herself, she ruined countless others(including Katarr). That's why I hate Atris the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astor Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 She wanted to follow the Exile, but was too scared to defy the Council.[/Quote] It's true that Atris did entertain thoughts of leaving the order to fight in the war, but as far as I can tell, she only thought about that after the war had finished. It was more regret that she didn't go rather than fear of the council. Even when the Exile returned, Atris went against she once believed.[/Quote] Atris, more than anyone, believed in the word of the council. She was the one who wanted the Exile executed for betraying both her and the order. This didn't stop her from being overly critical of herself, however. A belief is supposed to be everlasting and rigid... Atris's beliefs were extremely dynamic.[/Quote] Beliefs can change, especially as one's understanding grows. In addition to that, Atris fell to the darkside because of greed. She loved having power and wanted to have all the power of the order to herself. [/Quote] She wouldn't have fell to the dark side had it not been for Kreia's careful manipulation of people and events, though. Atris considered herself the last of the Jedi, but it was Kreia who convinced her to fall. That's why she wanted to lure the Masters on Dantoine... to be wiped out while she stayed on Telos. She didn't simply ruin herself, she ruined countless others(including Katarr).[/Quote] Ummm... that's not what happened. Atris rallied the Jedi on Katarr, to discuss the new threat. In secret, she informed the enemy of this plan so that the Jedi could face the threat head on, and hopefully destroy it once and for all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totenkopf Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Atris considered herself the last of the Jedi, but it was Kreia who convinced her to fall. Probably more like Kreia forced Atris to see herself for what she had become. Atris seems to have fallen on her own w/o a lot of help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EnderWiggin Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 A belief is supposed to be everlasting and rigid.... I only agree to an extent - you have to be smart enough to realize when your belief is illogical. _EW_ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev7 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Man.....would you to puhlease get a room. Oh, come on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Yuthura Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Ummm... that's not what happened. Atris rallied the Jedi on Katarr, to discuss the new threat. In secret, she informed the enemy of this plan so that the Jedi could face the threat head on, and hopefully destroy it once and for all. The conclave on Katarr was supposed to be SECRET. Atris deliberately defied the Council and the Jedi by revealing that they were meeting there. To put icing on the cake, she didn't go there, herself. She desires authority and power, but is never willing to take any responsibility. Few like these kind of characters and I don't see how anyone would say Atris wasn't evil, greedy, irresponsible, selfish, devious, untrustworthy, or a dark force user. I only agree to an extent - you have to be smart enough to realize when your belief is illogical. _EW_ Exactly! Atris should have realized it after everything that has happend, but she didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev7 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 The conclave on Katarr was supposed to be SECRET. Atris deliberately defied the Council and the Jedi by revealing that they were meeting there. To put icing on the cake, she didn't go there, herself. She desires authority and power, but is never willing to take any responsibility. Few like these kind of characters and I don't see how anyone would say Atris wasn't evil, greedy, irresponsible, selfish, devious, untrustworthy, or a true sith. Atris = epitome of evil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astor Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 The conclave on Katarr was supposed to be SECRET. Atris deliberately defied the Council and the Jedi by revealing that they were meeting there. To put icing on the cake, she didn't go there, herself. She desires authority and power, but is never willing to take any responsibility. Few like these kind of characters and I don't see how anyone would say Atris wasn't evil, greedy, irresponsible, selfish, devious, untrustworthy, or a true sith. I wouldn't say it was supposed to be secret, seeing as the original intention was to lure the Sith there in the first place. Okay, so she may have lied, but she didn't defy the council. Lying and defiance are two separate things. And Atris wasn't a 'true sith' they live in the unknown regions. The only thing she comes to close to being is a regular Sith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev7 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 And Atris wasn't a 'true sith' they live in the uknown regions. The only thing she comes to close to being is a regular Sith. That depends on what your definition of 'true sith' is. Yes, I know that they are supposed to live in the Unknown Regions, but it is a little controversial. But that is for another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Yuthura Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I wouldn't say it was supposed to be secret, seeing as the original intention was to lure the Sith there in the first place. Okay, so she may have lied, but she didn't defy the council. Lying and defiance are two separate things. And Atris wasn't a 'true sith' they live in the unknown regions. The only thing she comes to close to being is a regular Sith. Okay... here's the problem: I can understand your logic if you're missing certain things. The conclave WAS secret and Atris did not lie to the Council... she was just deceitful. And the result of her actions resulted in Katarr being destroyed... this is not in dispute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astor Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Okay... here's the problem: I can understand your logic if you're missing certain things. [/Quote] I'm not missing 'certain things'. I know perfectly well what I mean. The conclave WAS secret and Atris did not lie to the Council... she was just deceitful. [/Quote] Secret to the other Jedi, yes. But not to its chief architect, who was... Atris. And deceit is hardly the tool of just the Sith. The Jedi are deceitful when the need arises, such as they were when Revan was retrained, or when they trained Luke to kill Vader. And the result of her actions resulted in Katarr being destroyed... this is not in dispute. I'm not disputing that it resulted in Katarr's destruction. Where did you get that idea from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev7 Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 Luke was trained to kill Vader!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnseyy Posted July 9, 2008 Share Posted July 9, 2008 I'll put it in as few words as possible... Revan could not have corrupted so many jedi if he just decided to join the sith. It was because he won the Mandalorian War. His followers saw his leadership succeed where the Council would have failed. Even the Mandalorians admit it was Revan that defeated them. The Jedi who followed Revan did so because he earned their respect enough to abandon the Council. It was because they allowed Revan to have a great deed that was worth more than the jedi code. If the Council took control of the war from the start, there never would have been a civil war. The Council would have had the respect that Revan earned by saving the republic. There is no way to dispute that the Council was where it all the wars started. i get what you mean... thats actually quite true. revan and malak would not have had a solid excuse for the Jedi to turn to the dark side, so not as many would have fallen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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