If you think it matters...

[Jae Onasi]

"In a nation of 300 million, no electoral process will give you a say. Communism will neither give you a say, nor would anarchy give you a say.

This is true.

As for Jack Kennedy, while he backed the Russians down, his racial policies were not far from the KKK. He spent his adminstration with Bobby Kennedy and Hoover attempting time and again to prove that any of the civil rights activists, Martin Luther King or Malcolm X were communist funded.

I did not see documents on this in the research I did on the Civil Rights act and MLK, although J. Edgar Hoover certainly had a lot of surveillance on both men. I did not see any documents that LBJ wrote on or about MLK that indicated he thought MLK was a communist, even after MLK spoke out against the Vietnam war in '65. However, I was looking more at the Civil Rights act issues so it's possible that there was something I missed going through all the documents that I did.

The Civil Rights bill, pushed through by the Republican house under Kennedy

Kennedy had already died by the time the bill was passed in the House. It was Johnson's support of the bill (and I'm sure helped in no part by wanting to do anything that JFK had started) that got it through the rules committee and onto the floor of the House for the vote.

 

was finally signed by Johnson, who took all the credit.

After Johnson strong-armed it through the Senate, which he does deserve full credit for. I saw the internal documents at the Johnson Library between Johnson and various Senators, and the work both he and his aides did on civil rights issues, and they put in a tremendous effort, far more than Kennedy had. Kennedy deserves credit for making Civil Rights an important issue in his administration, but Johnson deserves the lion's share of the credit for actually getting it signed into law. If Johnson had not wielded his enormous influence built up from his time as Senate Majority leader on the Senate to force cloture of the 2 month filibuster, the bill would have died on the Senate floor and the substitute bill that did pass never would have even been heard. Johnson called in a TON of favors to get the filibuster stopped and then to get the bill passed, favors that he'd built up over time as a Senator. I don't know if JFK would have been able to accomplish what Johnson did, certainly not as quickly because he did not have the same clout in the Senate that Johnson had.

[machievelli]

Web, I never said one voice had to be heard. Only that with everything divided between two piles of disconnected cells (The political parties are after all made up of a hundred or so special interest groups) that telling the 20 percent who are not of one of those groups we have no say. By banding together, you gain the political power, but not even the most ardent democrat could accept everything their party wants them to espouse. Not and be sane in clinical terms.

 

I never said any president hasn't done some good work, Jae. But the Justice department and FBI do not go off investigating unless ordered to. Justice is under both the President and Attorney General, the Kennedy boys in this case. Hoover spent the Kennedy years looking for links that never existed. If you don't believe this consider this, it was the Clinton White house that had the Justice department actively supporting civil suits blaming gun manufacturers for violent crime. In one case (A man who was in the midst of a diviorce in Texas) where the man's ex filed a restraining order, and when he went to pick up the gun the police had been ordered to arrest him as a criminal.

 

During the trial, the defense stated he had ordered the gun over a week before the divorce was filed and a restraining order is common practice in divorces. Yet the Prosecutor claimed the order implied intent to commit murder.

 

At one point the defense commented that the second amendment gave him the right to have the gun if he had not yet committed a crime and the Prosecution claimed that is not what the amendment means. When the judge asked if he implied the constitution did not allow the average citizen a weapon he stated that the government's stand was on the gun control lobby's 'militia means national guard or army, not the average citizen'.

 

It was the same attitude (That came to the fore under his administration) which started law suits blaming the tobacco industry for people smoking.

 

The argument made no sense to me because I started smoking for the same reason most men my age did. It was cool. There was no subliminal advertising involved.

 

Note that one of the first thing the Justice department under Bush did was review the wording on the 2nd and stated that the wording of the section is clearly giving the rights to the average citizen. Since Madison was the framer of the section, you should read the Federalist papers where he clearly states that a militia could stop the army that did not yet exist from enforcing the Government's decrees.

 

Oh, and if Johnson was trying to finish Jack's good works, why did he spend two years arranging the Tonkin Gulf incident so he could increase the men in Vietnam?

 

Last point, I wrote articles a few years back about how to fix both the tax and political system, both of which would require grass roots movements to do so. Anyone interested?

[Jae Onasi]

I never said any president hasn't done some good work, Jae.

I was clearing up misunderstandings about the Civil Rights act and LBJ's work on it, mach, since that's one area I spent a lot of time doing primary research on--enough to make it a master's thesis if I decide to finish off the history PhD I started before deciding to do the eye doctor thing. My argument is that LBJ rightly should claim credit for the CR act of '64.

 

 

But the Justice department and FBI do not go off investigating unless ordered to. Justice is under both the President and Attorney General, the Kennedy boys in this case. Hoover spent the Kennedy years looking for links that never existed.

I don't doubt for a moment that Hoover was looking for any possible dirty stuff he could find, communist or otherwise, because Hoover had broad-reaching and unfettered (for the most part) power to do whatever he wanted surveillance-wise. That man had more dirt in one file cabinet than could be found in the soil of an entire acre.

 

 

If you don't believe this consider this, it was the Clinton White house that had the Justice department actively supporting civil suits blaming gun manufacturers for violent crime

Hoover died in '72, long before Clinton stepped up as President, and some of the power of the FBI was cut down to size after Hoover died, so I'm not sure what the Clinton case has to do with Hoover and MLK.

 

Oh, and if Johnson was trying to finish Jack's good works, why did he spend two years arranging the Tonkin Gulf incident so he could increase the men in Vietnam?

A lot of people loved JFK so much that they wanted to finish whatever he had started before his assassination, and I think there was some influence of "JFK started civil rights legislation, we should work on it in honor of him" on moving the legislation along--I never said that LBJ decided to go with it specifically to honor JFK. LBJ was shrewd--in his memoirs he said he supported the Civil Rights Act because he thought it was the right thing to do to give blacks the right to vote. I think it was more a combination of a. preventing further mass social unrest and b. recognition that the Democratic party would directly benefit from enfranchising 12% of the American population, even if it lost a lot of Southern white Democrats initially. LBJ's decision to ramp up our presence in 'Nam was a different issue altogether from Civil Rights laws anyway.

[machievelli]

Hoover died in '72, long before Clinton stepped up as President, and some of the power of the FBI was cut down to size after Hoover died, so I'm not sure what the Clinton case has to do with Hoover and MLK.

 

I am pointing out that as I said the President and Attorney General give the FBI their marching orders. The order to 'allow' civil suits against gun manufacturers was passed from the White House to Reno, then to Justice.

 

A lot of people loved JFK so much that they wanted to finish whatever he had started before his assassination, and I think there was some influence of "JFK started civil rights legislation, we should work on it in honor of him" on moving the legislation along--I never said that LBJ decided to go with it specifically to honor JFK. LBJ was shrewd--in his memoirs he said he supported the Civil Rights Act because he thought it was the right thing to do to give blacks the right to vote. I think it was more a combination of a. preventing further mass social unrest and b. recognition that the Democratic party would directly benefit from enfranchising 12% of the American population, even if it lost a lot of Southern white Democrats initially. LBJ's decision to ramp up our presence in 'Nam was a different issue altogether from Civil Rights laws anyway.

 

It is a common belief that the 12% in question could not vote, that is not true. The south did create 'poll' taxes, true, but they had been judged unconstitutional countless times. All the Civil Rights amendment did was force those states to stop using anything based on racial bias as a bar. As for how they began, they did not begin right after the War between the States.

 

Oddly enough they all began when President Wilson removed the right for a black man to work in government service in whatever position he was qualified for.

 

I am not blaming everything on Hoover, though there is enough filth that is his fault. It is a matter of political fact that when the Dems are in charge, they push for more control of the citizens.

[mimartin]

It was the same attitude (That came to the fore under his administration) which started law suits blaming the tobacco industry for people smoking.

I for one am all for personal responsibility for one's actions, but when the game purposely rigged against you them there should be repercussions. Tobacco companies lied about the health hazards of smoking by hiding research and outright lying about research as internal industry memos show. The fought every attempt to regulate the industry, so should they not be responsible too.

 

I agree with you about guns, unless the manufactures are doing things to make their guns more available to criminals. However, on Tobacco the industry got off easy IMO.

[machievelli]

I for one am all for personal responsibility for one's actions, but when the game purposely rigged against you them there should be repercussions. Tobacco companies lied about the health hazards of smoking by hiding research and outright lying about research as internal industry memos show. The fought every attempt to regulate the industry, so should they not be responsible too.

 

I agree with you about guns, unless the manufactures are doing things to make their guns more available to criminals. However, on Tobacco the industry got off easy IMO.

 

Yet that same industry removed ads for any magazine that was not already considered adult, and voluntarily placed warning labels onj tobacco products, all on their own. While the government was quite willing to blame them for everything it still comes to personal responsibility. I smoke because I want to. If I die from it, that was my form of suicide.

 

It's like the woman and the coffee from MacDonald's back in the late 70s. If I put a cup of hot liquid between my legs as I am driving, it is not the fault of the place I bought it from if it spills.

 

Right after the first such lawsuit was filed against the gun companies, I joked with a friend at the Renaissance fair that maybe we should sue the Automobile industry because they supplied the vehicles that killed so many on the roads due to drunk drivers. He is one of those people that stays in character regardless, but he grabbed me by the arm, pulled me into a back stage area, and told me never to even think about it. He told me that as a lawyer he knew some idiot would file the suit, some lawyer would accept it, a judge would allow it to be heard, and if they got the right jury, they would agree that every person killed by a drunk driver was automatically the fault of GM.

 

The problem is, such suits cannot be filed without the government actively aiding them. Either at the judge level or at the actual Justice department level. Primarily because smoking drinking and owning firearms is something we can do if we wish, and cannot be stopped by legislation. The one time they did legislate such a thing, the Volstead Act (Prohibition) caused the rise of modern organized crime.

[mimartin]

I agree. However, when you hide facts and lie about facts so that your consumer is purposely misinformed, then you do bare some of the responsibility.

[machievelli]

I agree. However, when you hide facts and lie about facts so that your consumer is purposely misinformed, then you do bare some of the responsibility.

Agreed. I never said they didn't deserve it, but assigning punitive damages equal to fifteen year of production of every product the combined conglomerates make (only 10 percent of which is tobacco linked) is a bit much. M iller brewing as an example is owned by Phillip Morris.

 

Last point, I wrote articles a few years back about how to fix both the tax and political system, both of which would require grass roots movements to do so. Anyone interested?

[Nedak]

 

I didn't mean that I don't understand it.

 

I meant that I think it's stupid that it's based off of "electoral votes" rather then popular votes.

[machievelli]

I didn't mean that I don't understand it.

 

I meant that I think it's stupid that it's based off of "electoral votes" rather then popular votes.

That is because the Electoral college is based on the same representation as they have in the Congress and Senate.

From my own article on how to fix the political system:

In the 1824 election, the winner didn't have the 51% (He had 47) he needed. Instead the vote went to Congress. The Congress of that time was heavily democratic (Actually Called the Republican-Democrats) still, and threw the votes to John Quincy Adams, who had barely 27% of the popular vote. When the vote was taken the RDs had 62 percent of both the house and senate, but after 20 Jan would have been for the front runner. But according to Federal law, the seated body votes, not the new one.

 

In 1876, we had the biggest problem thanks to the Electoral College. The popular vote went to one man, but the Electoral College went to the other. (Sound familiar?). But no one fixed the problem.

 

That second time was actually rigged. What had happened was this; the Democrats (In control of the South) had literally forced the vote, since the Blacks had been threatened into staying away from the polls. This required that the Federal government send in troops to try to get an honest vote which came close to causing riots throughtout the south. To save the situation, and avoid another War Between the States, the Democrats allowed the Republicans to have the second runner Rutherford B Hayes take office instead.

 

Before you scream, the Democrats lost control of the South in 1948 when Strom Thurmond (At that time a Democrat) ran on a Racially biased ticket closer to the Apartheid policies of South Africa of the same era under the Dixie-crat party.

[Achilles]

I didn't mean that I don't understand it.

 

I meant that I think it's stupid that it's based off of "electoral votes" rather then popular votes.

Oh, well then that's a matter of opinion rather than a statement of fact.

 

I personally think trying to accurately track a national popular vote would be a nightmare (I can't fathom a system with more complexity being less susceptible to corruption than the one we currently have).

 

But of course this all assumes that there is a great big glaring problem with the current system.

[machievelli]

Oh, well then that's a matter of opinion rather than a statement of fact.

 

I personally think trying to accurately track a national popular vote would be a nightmare (I can't fathom a system with more complexity being less susceptible to corruption than the one we currently have).

 

But of course this all assumes that there is a great big glaring problem with the current system.

 

And you think there is nothing wrong with it?

[Achilles]

And you think there is nothing wrong with it?

Please go back and read the part between the first sentence and the last sentence. Thanks.

[Tommycat]

I can't believe that Achilles and I are in agreement.

 

It isn't perfect, but it is better than a purely popular vote...

[machievelli]

Please go back and read the part between the first sentence and the last sentence. Thanks.

I stand corrected. But it can be done better.

[Achilles]

No system is perfect. Simply pointing out that something has flaws is not sufficient.

 

On the other hand, I think if there is a better system we would be foolish not to consider it.

[Nedak]

That is because the Electoral college is based on the same representation as they have in the Congress and Senate.

From my own article on how to fix the political system:

In the 1824 election, the winner didn't have the 51% (He had 47) he needed. Instead the vote went to Congress. The Congress of that time was heavily democratic (Actually Called the Republican-Democrats) still, and threw the votes to John Quincy Adams, who had barely 27% of the popular vote. When the vote was taken the RDs had 62 percent of both the house and senate, but after 20 Jan would have been for the front runner. But according to Federal law, the seated body votes, not the new one.

 

In 1876, we had the biggest problem thanks to the Electoral College. The popular vote went to one man, but the Electoral College went to the other. (Sound familiar?). But no one fixed the problem.

 

That second time was actually rigged. What had happened was this; the Democrats (In control of the South) had literally forced the vote, since the Blacks had been threatened into staying away from the polls. This required that the Federal government send in troops to try to get an honest vote which came close to causing riots throughtout the south. To save the situation, and avoid another War Between the States, the Democrats allowed the Republicans to have the second runner Rutherford B Hayes take office instead.

 

Before you scream, the Democrats lost control of the South in 1948 when Strom Thurmond (At that time a Democrat) ran on a Racially biased ticket closer to the Apartheid policies of South Africa of the same era under the Dixie-crat party.

 

Thank you for explaining all of that.

 

I hope some day we figure out how to get officals to change the electoral system

[machievelli]

No system is perfect. Simply pointing out that something has flaws is not sufficient.

 

On the other hand, I think if there is a better system we would be foolish not to consider it.

 

In the present system, all of the electoral votes of a state go to whoever is the front runner in that state. My suggestion in my own how to fix this is to divide up all of them by the proper percentages rather than merely throwing an entire state to them. As someone who lived in California for that election I was appalled to discover that all 57 votes went to a man I had not voted for. While the other side can't complain about being properly represented when 31 out of 55 electoral votes for California were theirs.

 

Second remove the 'college' aspect. No group of men who are chosen to vote throwing it for their own political ends as happened in 1824.

As it stand a party can take just 12 states;

55 California

34 Texas

31 New York

27 FLorida

21Pennsylvania

21 Illinois

20 Ohio

17 Michigan

15 New Jersey

15 Georgia

and one worth 4 or more to win the election.

 

Worse yet, all they need to do is win 51% of these states to do so. Less than half the population wagging the entire dog.

[Tommycat]

In the present system, all of the electoral votes of a state go to whoever is the front runner in that state. My suggestion in my own how to fix this is to divide up all of them by the proper percentages rather than merely throwing an entire state to them. As someone who lived in California for that election I was appalled to discover that all 57 votes went to a man I had not voted for. While the other side can't complain about being properly represented when 31 out of 55 electoral votes for California were theirs.

 

Second remove the 'college' aspect. No group of men who are chosen to vote throwing it for their own political ends as happened in 1824.

 

I agree that it seems unfair, but unfortunately this has to be decided on at the state level. A state like California or Texas that has so many votes won't want to divide up their votes as such. It is something that you have to petition your state government to change. I would love to see those staets lose some of their power over the presidency. But then again, that is also why it won't happen.

[Achilles]

In the present system, all of the electoral votes of a state go to whoever is the front runner in that state. My suggestion in my own how to fix this is to divide up all of them by the proper percentages rather than merely throwing an entire state to them. As someone who lived in California for that election I was appalled to discover that all 57 votes went to a man I had not voted for. While the other side can't complain about being properly represented when 31 out of 55 electoral votes for California were theirs.

1) This sure would seem to make things even more prohibitive for third party/independent candidates.

 

2) Completely ignoring that, I could see this system making every election exactly like the 2000 recount.

 

3) Isn't this a decision made at the state level? I could've sworn that Kansas and one other state practiced distributive votes.

 

My 2 cents.

 

Second remove the 'college' aspect. No group of men who are chosen to vote throwing it for their own political ends as happened in 1824.

At the risk of sounding flippant, "why you gotta bring up old ****?". Any reason to think that the modern Electoral College would have this problem? Or are we simply taking one example from our government's infancy and trying to paint a picture that supports your view at the expense of how things would work today?

[ET Warrior]

3) Isn't this a decision made at the state level? I could've sworn that Kansas and one other state practiced distributive votes.

I don't know about Kansas, but Nebraska does, I am pretty sure 1 of the Nebraska electoral votes is going to Obama.

 

One of the problems with dividing electoral votes like that is it makes campaigning in low population states useless. Why would a candidate pay any attention to a state like Wyoming when at most they will probably gain or lose 1 electoral vote? All campaign efforts and money would get pumped into states with 10 or more votes to give, and everyone else would just get ignored.

[machievelli]

 

At the risk of sounding flippant, "why you gotta bring up old ****?". Any reason to think that the modern Electoral College would have this problem? Or are we simply taking one example from our government's infancy and trying to paint a picture that supports your view at the expense of how things would work today?

 

In the 1924 example if the congress and senate that was coming into office (62 percent Federalist) had voted it would have gone the other way.

 

Take this as a modern example, Achilles;

 

The Dems had 52 percent of the house and 51 in the senate in 2000. With the election this tight, and the demographics of the 2000 senate almost exactly opposite (54 rep in congress and 51 rep in the senate) for those who take their seats on Jan 20 2001, who would have been president if the 'electoral college' voted?

 

Why do you think neither side even suggested it?

 

ET Warrior said: 'One of the problems with dividing electoral votes like that is it makes campaigning in low population states useless. Why would a candidate pay any attention to a state like Wyoming when at most they will probably gain or lose 1 electoral vote? All campaign efforts and money would get pumped into states with 10 or more votes to give, and everyone else would just get ignored.'

 

That is exactly my point. Every state even if only four votes now becomes important

[Tommycat]

Take this as an example, Achilles;

 

The Dems had 52 percent of the house and 51 in the senate in 2000. With the election this tight, and the demographics of the 2000 senate almost exactly opposite (54 rep in congress and 51 rep in the senate) for those who take their seats on Jan 20 2001, who would have been president if the 'electoral college' voted?

 

Technically the electoral college still could vote. Heck they could all vote the other way. It is highly unlikely to happen because the people chosen to vote one way or another are chosen for their dedication.

[machievelli]

I don't know about Kansas, but Nebraska does, I am pretty sure 1 of the Nebraska electoral votes is going to Obama.

 

One of the problems with dividing electoral votes like that is it makes campaigning in low population states useless. Why would a candidate pay any attention to a state like Wyoming when at most they will probably gain or lose 1 electoral vote? All campaign efforts and money would get pumped into states with 10 or more votes to give, and everyone else would just get ignored.

 

In my above example the states mentioned are 266 electoral votes. Yet if they got the 51% I mentioned using the divided electoral votes, it would only be 136, requiring support in more states.

 

Technically the electoral college still could vote. Heck they could all vote the other way. It is highly unlikely to happen because the people chosen to vote one way or another are chosen for their dedication.

 

The electoral college is the house and senate Nothing more. So it falls back to which party is in charge in office at that moment as to who wins.

[Achilles]

The Dems had 52 percent of the house and 51 in the senate in 2000. With the election this tight, and the demographics of the 2000 senate almost exactly opposite (54 rep in congress and 51 rep in the senate) for those who take their seats on Jan 20 2001, who would have been president if the 'electoral college' voted?

 

Why do you think neither side even suggested it?

You appear to be confirming my perspective. It didn't happen because the modern electoral college doesn't operate the way you are suggesting that it does. The electoral college votes based on the popular vote of their constituencies. Hence why the scenario above didn't happen and why it wasn't suggested.

 

The election came down to Florida and Florida was undecided.

 

ET Warrior said: 'One of the problems with dividing electoral votes like that is it makes campaigning in low population states useless. Why would a candidate pay any attention to a state like Wyoming when at most they will probably gain or lose 1 electoral vote? All campaign efforts and money would get pumped into states with 10 or more votes to give, and everyone else would just get ignored.'

 

That is exactly my point. Every state even if only four votes now becomes important

Except that it doesn't. No candidate is going to campaign hard in a state where they are only going to 1 (maybe 2) votes. Big states would be awash in campaign dollars while Ralph Nader's animated corpse stumps 6 months out of the year in the Big Sky states.