How do you view sith lords?

[Litofsky]

Why would the Sith go against each other before the Jedi?

In order to become the last Sith remaining, and therefore gain the power that comes with the title?

 

Given that the rule of two dictates that they remain hidden, there would not be much any one would gain by going against another.

Unless, of course, their goals overlapped/conflicted, in which case, the Sith might be exterminated by inter-societal feuds. Therefore, with only a Master and Apprentice, they would have no other opponents to their reign but the Apprentice and the Jedi.

[Darth_Yuthura]

In order to become the last Sith remaining, and therefore gain the power that comes with the title?

 

 

Unless, of course, their goals overlapped/conflicted, in which case, the Sith might be exterminated by inter-societal feuds. Therefore, with only a Master and Apprentice, they would have no other opponents to their reign but the Apprentice and the Jedi.

 

The Sith aren't fighting for power... remember the rule of two? It's not like every Sith is foolish enough to think they have to prove to each other that they are the top dog. They really aren't that vein.

 

The idea behind the rule of a dozen all independent of each other is to avoid creating a disfunctional society where they have to kill each other to advance. If the two are content to just lay low and take it easy, then surely a dozen wouldn't think that all the power of the Galaxy rests with only the other Sith.

 

Every argument for the rule of two makes an assumption that more than two would make the Sith act like Siamese fighting fish towards each other no matter what they do. A society with more than two wouldn't work, but separate factions spread across the Galaxy would provide more stability and not restrict how much they could do. And before they would turn on each other, they would turn on the Jedi first... they are the ones that contradict everything a Sith was. What's best for a Sith is to not attack the enemy of his enemy first.

[Ultimate Vader]

Yes. That's why it's called The Phantom Menace, it's meant to silently strike fear into the heart of many people, including the Jedi.

 

The Sith in the Rule of Two use brain more than brawn. That means they use tactics, not just numbers. They wait for the right time to strike the Jedi and gain control. Bane knew this when he decided to make the Rule of Two (with some help from Revan, IMO). He knew that by waiting patiently and striking at the right time, victory can be gained. Sounds like Revan's tactic.

[Darth_Yuthura]

The Sith in the Rule of Two use brain more than brawn. That means they use tactics, not just numbers.

 

That's something of a contradiction. You see, you're not nearly as capable when you have just two to work with as opposed to several different groups spread across the Galaxy. Instead of just two collecting knowledge and striving for perfection, you've got a number of others doing the same thing.

 

How exactly does that work? It's not just two, but many others all striving for the same goal. Instead of just one or two, you could have many others, all roughly as smart as the two. Strength in numbers IS smarter so long as they don't restrict the progress of the others... which they would only do after they had no common enemy out there but themselves.

[Ultimate Vader]

They will restrict the progress of the others. Why? Because they are selfish. They don't like it when others are stronger than them. They will destroy the others so they can gain power, no matter how small the power is. Remember what happens after the death of Marka Ragnos? Remember what happens after the death of Uthar Wynn (yes, this is an academy, but it's a comunnity, there are many Sith that want power).

[Darth_Yuthura]

Uh... what power are you talking about? Why would they put so much on the line for so little? Everyone keeps saying "kill them to become more powerful." How does killing off another Sith lead to that? Is he going to just reveal everything he knows to his enemy before he dies?

 

Anything that can be used against a number of Sith can also be used against the rule of two. If Sith are just that foolish, then surly an apprentice will always kill his master before learning all his secrets or a master will always kill his apprentice before he becomes too powerful to control. One mistake and the rule of two leads the Sith to its final end.

[Endorenna]

My advice? Read the Darth Bane books, Paths of Destruction and Rule of Two.

[Darth_Yuthura]

I know the idea behind the rule of two, but that leaves the Sith always on the brink of defeat. Just because they hadn't didn't mean that it was the best strategy. "One Sith to wield power and another to crave it."

 

Numbers are always added insurance. Two separate and independent pair would have worked even better.

[Chevron 7 locke]

But numbers always end up destroying themselves

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

the reasoning that the sith would turn on each other comes from the evidence we see in sw eu. sith always turned on each other. always. its the result of their belief. its like the same way the jedi, when they follow their code to the punctuation marks, they become... like jedi you know what i mean. we discussed it before.

 

there is strength in numbers yes, but they need a top dog two whack them all into place. in the sith of kotor's case it was revan. he was the most powerful, he was their leader. he was the dark lord of the sith. when darkside revan went off to the unknown regions, (non canon k2) we see what happened to the sith... exactly what i said. they fought amongst each other for supremacy, for the star forge etc. (bastila's message-

)

 

in the 'rule of 12', the masters believe themselves to be the top dogs. each one wants to be the top dog. its what the sith are. what they believe.

sith would throw two starved students into a chamber and make them fight for a loaf of bread. one would kill the other and get the loaf. the loser deserved death. he was weak. this is sith mentality.

in the rule of 12, the students are the 6 masters. the loaf of bread is supremacy.

the masters may not know where the others are, but sith are *very* capable people.

it'll happen. it may take a while, but it will happen.

[Adavardes]

Uh... what power are you talking about? Why would they put so much on the line for so little? Everyone keeps saying "kill them to become more powerful." How does killing off another Sith lead to that? Is he going to just reveal everything he knows to his enemy before he dies?

 

"It is a constant struggle for dominance, they must always test themselves against each other. It is the way of the Sith." - paraphrased from Kreia

 

The fact of the matter is, you give Sith way too much credit. They fight one another because they want to see how strong they are, to see if they can defeat another once thought to have superior power to them. They don't care about the ramifications, they have no logic or reasoning to their motives, they just kill to see if they have the ability. That's how they prove to themselves that they have transcended the master's teaching, and become masters themselves. Yes, they really are that vein; Sidious did it, Vader set up plans to do it several times over, and even Bane did it. That's the off-side to the harnessing of their emotions: their judgement is all but obstructed by it. A Sith Lord has more sense, and thinks with more wisdom, this is true: but in a group setting it's in little to no time that a Sith Lord has fallen to the hands of an apprentice.

 

The Rule of Two does keep the Sith at a constant closeness to failure. But there are two factors to remember on that point. Firstly, an unchallenged master has more time to plan and focus on defeating the Jedi, as opposed to constantly keeping himself safe from apprentices, and secondly, even if both were to die by some freak accident, or a battle where both were critically injured, a new disciple would eventually come along to learn on his own, in his own way. That is the way of the Sith: they must exist so long as the Jedi exist. The Sith are beasts, and when more than two are involved, they bicker and make absolutely no progress other than building an empire and watching it collapse at their feet time and time again. But when only two are involved, thinking about defeating the Jedi before or while creating an empire, then things get interesting, and progress is made.

 

Another key factor that flaws your idea that more Sith would make more sense is their presence in the Force. In the hands of a skilled sith Lord, two presences aren't difficult to keep hidden, but if many presences were a factor, especially presences scattered across the galaxy, it would be nearly impossible to cloud the vision of the Jedi Masters. Sidious' biggest advantage, and the reason he was able to accomplish so much right under the Order's noses, was due to the fact that he could conceal however many sith he wished to, including himself, because there were only ever two at a time. He was an incredibly powerful Sith Lord, yes, but there's no way of knowing if any Force user could have been powerful enough to hide a dozen Sith apprentices from the constantly vigilant Jedi Order. I have my sincere doubts about that, especially when Master Yoda was alive.

[Chevron 7 locke]

I thought Palpatine's biggest advantage was that he had an army of clone troopers who were willing to wipe out the jedi at a simple command.

 

But seriously you do raise a great point with this. The only time we have seen sith work together was with the rise of the Brotherhood of darkness, and in time that fell as well.

[Adavardes]

I thought Palpatine's biggest advantage was that he had an army of clone troopers who were willing to wipe out the jedi at a simple command.

 

... *sigh*

 

How was he able to place himself in such a position as to harness an army of clone troopers who were willing to wipe out the Jedi at a simple command? He worked in shadow, unbeknownst to the Jedi, carefully and slowly building himself an army, becoming Supreme Chancellor of the Republic, and using his absolute control over the most powerful government in the Galaxy to wipe them out.

 

Also, quick note on the Apprentice/Master relationships in sith philosophy. Many Sith Lords, including Sidious, expressed a desire to find and train an apprentice with enough skill to kill them and take their place as the new Sith Lord. It can be assumed, then, that this was a natural part of Sith teaching, but that too much killing lead to a convalution of purpose and a lack in direction. The Rule of Two, again, just kept it simple.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

I thought Palpatine's biggest advantage was that he had an army of clone troopers who were willing to wipe out the jedi at a simple command.

order 66 wasnt taught specifically and secretly to the clones to kill jedi. (except the 501st afaik)

right before it was order 65:

Order 65: In the event of either (i) a majority in the Senate declaring the Supreme Commander (Chancellor) to be unfit to issue orders, or (ii) the Security Council declaring him to be unfit to issue orders, and an authenticated order being received by the GAR, commanders shall be authorized to detain the Supreme Commander, with lethal force if necessary, and command of the GAR shall fall to the acting Chancellor until a successor is appointed or alternative authority identified as outlined in Section 6 (iv).

the clones would have killed the chancellor the same way the killed the jedi. this is why palpatine did away with them and had different clone templates and normal recruits.

there once was a batch of clones that were specially made to fight the empire. they were wiped out by the 501st legion with boba fett. palpatine decided then that a clone army like that was a threat to him.

[TKA-001]

the clones would have killed the chancellor the same way the killed the jedi. this is why palpatine did away with them and had different clone templates and normal recruits.

there once was a batch of clones that were specially made to fight the empire. they were wiped out by the 501st legion with boba fett. palpatine decided then that a clone army like that was a threat to him.

Uhh, no, they wouldn't have killed the Chancellor. Virtually all of the contingency orders existed for no purpose other than to form a big list for Order 66 to hide inside of, and since Palpatine knew better than to be declared unfit to issue orders, he knew that Order 65 would never be issued.

 

In the case of the rebellious clones on Kamino, the only reason they were a threat was because someone high-ranking in the cloning facility administration was specifically training to have them rebel against him (otherwise they never would have existed). It's not like it's something that just happened.

[JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan]

Uhh, no, they wouldn't have killed the Chancellor. Virtually all of the contingency orders existed for no purpose other than to form a big list for Order 66 to hide inside of, and since Palpatine knew better than to be declared unfit to issue orders, he knew that Order 65 would never be issued.

 

thats what i mean. with the clones, its possible for someone to do the same kind of thing to him.

 

In the case of the rebellious clones on Kamino, the only reason they were a threat was because someone high-ranking in the cloning facility administration was specifically training to have them rebel against him (otherwise they never would have existed). It's not like it's something that just happened.

again, thats what i meant. i said they were "specially made" for rebellion.

[bally3000]

i would love to be one of the sith apprentices =]

 

but darth sideous was not are mainic he was the sith Lord to furful the legacy if the sith he was the one who put all what the have acomplished and finished the jobs, the sith are way more intrestiong than the jedi, jedi are well, weak.

 

Darth bane is a great example of sith power over jedi =], i love his 2 books