Does Shakespeare matter?

[EnderWiggin]

I often can't associate with Shakespeare's characters

 

I don't think that's his fault.

 

_EW_

[Jae Onasi]

I don't believe that condensing an ideal into smaller units really enhances or clarifies the message within. In fact, I find that using as many adjectives as possible often enhances the message, especially with something extremely creative. To take a page from Jack Kerouac:Now, if you take out, let's say seven adjectives, for starters, would the message stay the same as the original? Using a multitude of varying terms not only gets the message across, but also creates a stylized pattern, a form of art, if you will.

 

I was pointing out where he could achieve the same imagery more efficiently--all the images of the emerald leaves, trees, butterflies, chaos and order, and wind can get bombastic when it's overdone. Re-read Kerouac's sentence again--what are you seeing? Are you stopping in the middle of the sentence to read the words, or are you experiencing the moment that Kerouac's created for you? Does it use 'writerly' language or normal language? The only word in Kerouac's sentence that you might pause at is 'desirous' since we don't use that word very often in American English. His sentence construction helps with the flow with the staccato mad-mad-mad-mad--he has the right words, he also has put them in the right places.

 

Efficient does not mean 'short'. It means using the right word in the right place at the right time and no more than that. I don't think Kerouac could have made that sentence any more efficient and still have it mean the same--every single word is necessary to create the experience. There were words in Adavardes' and likely my creative attempts that weren't necessary or needed to be moved around or tweaked to give us more specific imagery and sensations for the reader to experience for ourselves, rather than 'telling us what the experience is'. However, that's why Kerouac's published and I'm not (but maybe one day....)

 

@Darth_Yuthura--the themes in Romeo and Juliet are repeated to this day. How happy are families when a person of one race marries a person of another, black/white, Hispanic/black, Hispanic/white, etc.? What happens when a conservative marries into a family of Communists, a Christian marries a Wiccan, a Muslim marries a Jew? Can you imagine what might happen if a Palestinian girl told her family she was in love with an Israeli boy that she had met at the local college or market? The two families might not go to open war these days (Palestinians and Israelis notwithstanding), but they might well have the same kind of seething hatred for the other family that you see in Romeo and Juliet, the kind that can poison the very children that they love and want the best for.

 

The little details that you feel are sorely lacking are often part of the set or costuming, or seen in the gestures and facial expressions that the actors would make, or even in their movements on stage and their interactions with different props. I would recommend watching Shakespeare instead of just reading his works--I think it'll make a lot more sense for you then. Plays are meant to be watched rather than read, ideally. I've read 'Much Ado About Nothing', which is funny, but it's even better on stage or on screen, not to mention any movie with Emma Thompson, Kenneth Branagh, Denzel Washington, Robert Sean Leonard, Kate Beckinsale, and Michael Keaton (who nearly stole the show with his crazy take on Dogberry) is fantastic.

[Tommycat]

I often can't associate with Shakespeare's characters, so I can't understand why Romeo would fall in love under such unbelievable circumstances. In the course of a play, the little details are sorely lacking; but you then can't make a play less than a day long to associate and care for the characters.

 

If you can't understand why Romeo could fall for Juliette, then you have never been truly in love.

 

Perhaps a more modern interpretation would be to your liking. Try West Side Story. SAME story. Then there's the love story from Lord of the Rings. but that's not all. It flows through with many other modern stories. The geeky kid and the head cheerleader. the Jock and the brainy girl. It is a story told time and again. Two lovers who's lives are seperated by forces other than their own making. Heck a case could even be made for Anakin and Padme. She's a politician, He's a Jedi sworn to cast off all attachments.

 

Oh and Jae, you're late on the Israeli/Palestinian story. I present to you the Oscar Winning West Bank Story

 

Parallels with life are all around you. I fell in love with a girl from a wealthy family. Her family absolutely hated anything to do with the military. While our story didn't end in mutual death(at least I hope not, since I still seem to be here), the basic premise of the story is the same.

[Darth Avlectus]

Using this image of Kenneth Branagh looking rather scared as inspiration, does Shakespeare matter to you? Do you think it should be taught in schools? Is he just pointlessly outdated, kept alive by a bunch of luvvies in large shirts?

 

 

Famous because he's famous? You don't even have to say "Shakespeare's works" anymore, simply "Shakespeare" will do...

 

Well, now. This thread sure livened my day up. I hadn't been to kavar's for a bit.

 

I thought my entire high school education was as useless as turds in a crock pot. I'm glad to see I was wrong about that. In fact, now that I have read over many posts and taken certain considerations of similar analogies (I.E. points of cultural centrality as I learn japanese I.E. the symbolic meaning of the Samurai, etc.), I can honestly say, now, that my high school education was, in fact, a very rich one.

 

Shakespeare IMO cannot, and never will be able to be, *fully* appreciated in just a single subject of class (I.E. English). My experiences with it was in my particular high school's 'acting concepts 1-2' or simply 'basic drama'. I took the class because state curriculum required that I take either a year of fine arts or a foreign language. They didn't have Japanese or Chinese language available, so I took drama being that my father is a performer by trade.

 

Looking back, I see now that perhaps a very large factor into how I am capable of understanding, and leveling with, others, was this class. It helped me to be more palpable in my english papers later on with the ethos and pathos, though I preferred logos. It gave me ability and focus also to see into one-another's persona when I converse with him or her.

(Heheh. Palpable...palpatine? Fwo-ho-ho! I DO wonder!)

 

My drama class: we had to do quite a few Shakespeare related things if I do recall. Had to read all the plays, and the history of them and bits and chunks of shakespeare as a whole--probably not near as intensively, nor comprehensively, as some of you have had to do in english courses.

 

How would I describe it? Sort of like rolling up english, history, anthropology, psychology, speech, old fashioned visual effects, advertising, and perhaps some bits of science in there too, all in one. I don't know how else to describe the complexity of the "case study" assignment. (except huge and intimidating until you actually got into it). My impression: very few beatings on an intellectual level have I ever received. Of them, this has to be one of the most memorable, at least.

Another that rivals that in my educational experience is the book of:

Frederick Douglass: an American slave, a narrative written by himself. I swear, I never got such an ass-kicking in the reading department (and supposedly I'm a natural in reading and comprehension dept.)!

 

We also had to group up and reenact a play chosen. (My group chose Hamlet--only the bloodiest most violent one ) I loved the part where I played the character talking about laced muttons, and getting all disgruntled and crawling around mimicking a lamb like I'd gone mad. I got quite a few laughs. At the very least you had to be able to act out multiple parts with a fair level of fluidity and believability, and cooperation with your team had to be enough for decent/average timing.

 

However, the all encompassing interactivity of it was something I'll never forget as long as I live. It is a standard in fact to which I apply and hold many things--often without even realizing it!!!

 

Ironic how you never think you have use for such things until you reexamine your life AFTER having experienced it.

 

As well, AP English classes in my high school specializing in british literature seemed to also have concurrently integrated itself with our class's material. So we were quite on the spot to make our stuff good for observation because another class depended upon it, somewhat. I'm not sure to what extent this actually goes, but a great deal of things is possible. Whether it is dual cooperative efforts, after school projects, correlative studies, or fun competitive exhibitions...is anyone's guess.

 

It was a major grade requirement for the first semester of that class in high school, whatever year you took it. The more advanced classes, you can bet, requiring even more Shakespeare.

 

Certainly, it set a precedent for other small memorable things in my life.

1) I became a famous guy in my high school's "Air Band" history, definitely in the school history books: nobody before had attempted and succeeded as I had in doing the badboy rock'n'roll routine and getting a HUGE popular response from the crowd. My acts were: Junior year: Kevin DuBrow with Quiet Riot, song "Cum on feel the noize!"; Senior year: Ozzy Osbourne in his band gone solo, song "Crazy Train".

2) Also, in various sword play I do, I seem to be relied upon quite a bit by whomever I am with to make a duel choreography "work" or "happen".

3) At nerd conventions with Star Wars themes and for a community college's anthropology meets or classes on Star Wars I occasionally would make appearances for 'lightsaber duels'.

[mur'phon]

When you sound some of the words out, it helps us understand why we spell things the way we do today. There were a few words from Beowulf and other very early English writers that look very strange until you sound them out--then I could see the pattern develop that turned it into the modern equivalent. I was able to apply those pattern to similar words, and it helped with spelling.

 

If that is how Shakespare is taught in schools ( I have no experience with the american school system, and what I have of the British commes from my stay in South Africa), I have no problem with it. My experience however is that it doesen't happen, at least not in the Norwegian/South African system.

 

I think issues of life and death are rather relevant for all of us at some point, don't you?

 

Yes, but I prefer to deal with those through research, if Shakespare is usefull to some in that situation, give them pointers.

 

Shakespeare conveys a lot of insight on humanity in some very interesting plays and poetry.He's done it better than many other writers.

 

Agreed, though this effect is a bit reduced by his own succes, there are so much "plagiarized" from his work that most students have got much of the insight long before they are taught Shakespare.