Graphic Design computer

True_Avery · May 4, 2009

Hello Tech forum!

I've been comparing prices, hardware, and so on and need some extra opinions:

I need to build a powerhouse pretty soon. With this powerhouse, I intend to train myself in 3D modeling, animation, video editing, compiling, after effects, and generally making 3d stuffs.

I have a friend who works with Team Ninja that has suggested to me getting a 24 - 32gb pc or something, and juicing it with some hardware. I am awaiting the list of his hardware from him, but am having some trouble putting my head around some stuff.

So, basically, tips? Websites? Hardware or software suggestions?

Price, at the moment, is not much of a problem as self training is my planned route as to not spend $80,000 on an art school. Just try to keep it under $2,000 - $3,000 or so because I need to get some software along side it:P

Det. Bart Lasiter · May 4, 2009

case http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811119068

mobo http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813128375

cpu http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115201

ram http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227407

ssd http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231257

vid http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814133271

psu http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139006

comes in at $2925.93

6.8k · May 4, 2009

Wow, what a tall order! This is going to interesting, and possibly a learning experience since this forum is mostly geared towards gaming and the like.

As soon as you mentioned what you will be doing with this computer, one thing came to mind: would you consider building it yourself? The reason I ask is because the OEMs like Dell, while their cheap computers can be excellent deals at times, will soak you like crazy for the ultra-high-end hardware that you're going to require to run the software that you're talking about.

jmac's got a good list of parts going and it's a good starting point, but I wanted to ask if you're going to need a monitor. For the stuff you'll be doing, you're going to want one of the best, and that's ~$1000.00 right there. Don't panic, though, because I can probably figure out a way to trim ~$1000.00 off of jmac's list without sacrificing much of anything, like getting a Core i7 920 instead of a 940, finding some cheaper RAM and using a smaller SSD in concert with a normal platter.

Det. Bart Lasiter · May 4, 2009

we already decided i talked to some people and got avery a deal for one of these for only almost $12k

6.8k · May 4, 2009

12 grand and it's only got a Phenom?

Trust me, you're going to want Core i7.

True_Avery · May 4, 2009

As soon as you mentioned what you will be doing with this computer, one thing came to mind: would you consider building it yourself? The reason I ask is because the OEMs like Dell, while their cheap computers can be excellent deals at times, will soak you like crazy for the ultra-high-end hardware that you're going to require to run the software that you're talking about.

Whatever gets me what I need! I can build my own computer, and any problems with that I can ask my engineer dad. Been exploring pre-builts for awhile, but most of them are geared towards gaming than what I need.

jmac's got a good list of parts going and it's a good starting point, but I wanted to ask if you're going to need a monitor. For the stuff you'll be doing, you're going to want one of the best, and that's ~$1000.00 right there. Don't panic, though, because I can probably figure out a way to trim ~$1000.00 off of jmac's list without sacrificing much of anything, like getting a Core i7 920 instead of a 940, finding some cheaper RAM and using a smaller SSD in concert with a normal platter.

As far as the monitor goes, that is a side order. I'll need a really nice monitor, but for now I am focusing on the rig itself.

I do have two questions though:

1) I've been recommended to use 12 or more GB of ram for what I want to do.

2) I've also been recommended 1 - 2 Terabytes of ram for memory, and other such things. I need to ask my friend why, but for now could someone explain to me how an SSD would help me out? I am aware it is incredibly fast, but it also isn't a awhole lot of memory even though that could be solved with an external.

6.8k · May 4, 2009

Whatever gets me what I need! I can build my own computer, and any problems with that I can ask my engineer dad. Been exploring pre-builts for awhile, but most of them are geared towards gaming than what I need.

And we'll be here to help you, of course.

As far as the monitor goes, that is a side order. I'll need a really nice monitor, but for now I am focusing on the rig itself.

OK, I was just saying that we could probably get everything including the monitor for your $3000.00 without making a noticeable impact in performance. First, Core i7 is very overclockable, so you can get the cheapest one and safely make it run like the most expensive one. If you can build a computer, you can overclock a computer. Second, you really only need an SSD that's big enough for your OS and applications to get most of the speed benefits. You can use a regular platter HDD for storage. Third, I've seen 6GB of DDR3 sell for as little as $60.00 after rebate. These three factors will save you over $1000.00 right there.

I do have two questions though:

1) I've been recommended to use 12 or more GB of ram for what I want to do.

Hm, I've never messed with the software that you're talking about using, so I have no idea what the memory demands would be, but I'd have a hard time believing that it would fully utilize 6GB, let alone 12. But if it is 12GB, that still won't be much of a problem for your budget.

2) I've also been recommended 1 - 2 Terabytes of ram for memory, and other such things. I need to ask my friend why, but for now could someone explain to me how an SSD would help me out? I am aware it is incredibly fast, but it also isn't a awhole lot of memory even though that could be solved with an external.

You have to be talking about HDD space, here. Like I said, you'll only need an SSD that's large enough to hold your OS, your applications and a few GBs of scratch space. The rest can be handled with the HDD of your choice, and the 1TB ones are as low as $80.00.

True_Avery · May 4, 2009

First, Core i7 is very overclockable, so you can get the cheapest one and safely make it run like the most expensive one. If you can build a computer, you can overclock a computer.

Not sure if I'd like to overclock the Core as I don't know how long I'll be keeping this computer. Don't want it to burn out before its time.

Hm, I've never messed with the software that you're talking about using, so I have no idea what the memory demands would be, but I'd have a hard time believing that it would fully utilize 6GB, let alone 12. But if it is 12GB, that still won't be much of a problem for your budget.

Animation and still picture rendering can basically take as much ram as it desires or is allowed. It isn't so much that 6GB is terrible and can't do it as much as there would be a huge time save between 6GB of ram and 12GB of ram, as well as a larger possibility to work while something is rendering/compiling.

You have to be talking about HDD space, here. Like I said, you'll only need an SSD that's large enough to hold your OS, your applications and a few GBs of scratch space. The rest can be handled with the HDD of your choice, and the 1TB ones are as low as $80.00.

Ah, ok I get it now. Yeah, that makes sense and I'll keep it in mind.

6.8k · May 4, 2009

Not sure if I'd like to overclock the Core as I don't know how long I'll be keeping this computer. Don't want it to burn out before its time.

That won't be a factor. Aside from the multiplier, all of those different grades of the same CPU model are identical and can run at the same speed. As long as you stay at a reasonable clockspeed (like, say, the speed of the high-end model) and within the thermal and voltage limits (which you will at that speed) it will run as long as any other CPU.

Even if you don't overclock at all, you won't notice much of a difference between a Core i7 920 and a 940 performance-wise, but you will notice that the 920 is ~$250.00 cheaper.

Animation and still picture rendering can basically take as much ram as it desires or is allowed. It isn't so much that 6GB is terrible and can't do it as much as there would be a huge time save between 6GB of ram and 12GB of ram, as well as a larger possibility to work while something is rendering/compiling.

Well, Vista64 goes without saying.

Like I said, the extra RAM won't be a problem. If there's an absolutely killer deal with a rebate that limits you to one per household, you can always purchase the other set through a friend.

Ah, ok I get it now. Yeah, that makes sense and I'll keep it in mind.

Also keep in mind that X58 (and most full-ATX motherboards, for that matter) support 6 SATA devices, so you could have 2 DVD drives (I find that the most convenient), your SSD and still have 3 conventional HDDs. If you use PATA DVD drives then you can have 5 HDDs.

True_Avery · May 4, 2009

* CASE: CoolerMaster Cosmos Silent Gaming Tower Case w/ 420 Watts Power Supply

* POWER SUPPLY Upgrade: 800 Watts Power Supplies (CyberPowerPC XF800S Performance ATX 2.0 Power - Quad SLI Ready)

* CPU: Intel® Core™ i7-920 2.66 GHz 8M L3 Cache LGA1366

* COOLING FAN : Ultra ChillTec Thermo Electric CPU Cooler

* MOTHERBOARD: (3-Way SLI Support) GigaByte GA-EX58-UD4P Intel X58 Chipset SLI/CrossFireX Ultra Durable™3 Mainboard Triple-Channel DDR3/1600 SATA RAID w/ eSATA, Dual GbLAN, USB2.0, IEEE1394a, & 7.1Audio

* RAM: 12GB (2GBx6) DDR3/1600MHz Triple Channel Memory Module (Corsair Dominator)

* HARD DRIVE: Single Hard Drive (128 GB Ritek RiDATA 2.5 inch SATA Gaming MLC Solid State Disk)

* Data Hard Drive: Single Hard Drive (1.5TB (1.5TBx1) SATA-II 3.0Gb/s 32MB Cache 7200RPM HDD)

* Optical Drive: LG GGW-H20L 6X Internal Super Multi Blue Blu-Ray Disc Rewriter & HD DVD-ROM Drive (Black Color)

* Optical Drive 2: LG GGC-H20L BLU-RAY/HD-DVD Reader / DVD±R/±RW Writer (Black Color)

* SOUND: Creative Labs X-FI XtremeGamer 24-BIT PCI Sound Card

* Extra Thermal Display : THERMAL TEMPERATURE LCD DISPLAY WITH 3X FAN CONTROLLER (WHITE COLOR)

* OS: Microsoft® Windows Vista™ Ultimate w/ Service Pack 1 (64-bit Edition)

* SERVICE: STANDARD WARRANTY: 3-YEAR LIMITED WARRANTY PLUS LIFE-TIME TECHNICAL SUPPORT

* Video Card: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814133271

Total: $3131.99

Ok, that is first attempt at a rig so far. Thoughts?

That won't be a factor. Aside from the multiplier, all of those different grades of the same CPU model are identical and can run at the same speed. As long as you stay at a reasonable clockspeed (like, say, the speed of the high-end model) and within the thermal and voltage limits (which you will at that speed) it will run as long as any other CPU.

Even if you don't overclock at all, you won't notice much of a difference between a Core i7 920 and a 940 performance-wise, but you will notice that the 920 is ~$250.00 cheaper.

Hm, interesting. I'll do some research on overclocking them and see where that goes.

6.8k · May 4, 2009

Ok, that is first attempt at a rig so far. Thoughts?

First of all, if you haven't already, create an account with Newegg and sign up for their email newsletter. These emails will contain coupon codes for discounts and free shipping that only people who for signed up for the newsletter can use.

Second, sign up for Live.com's cashback program to get a certain % back from Microsoft when you purchase stuff from participating etailers. That percentage varies all of the time and with Newegg it is usually small (but will add up when we're talking about the $$$ you're going to be spending), but at some places like TigerDirect I've seen it go as high as 15%.

Third, check this forum religiously. There are several others, but this one is the most convenient for those shopping for computer hardware, and it isn't infested with obnoxious white trash looking to make a quick buck on Fleabay.

Remember that you can take your time and buy these components one by one as they go on sale. You'll save literally hundreds of dollars that way. I've seen Core i7 920s as low as $220.00, X58 motherboards for $180.00, 6GB of brand-name DDR3 for $60.00, 64GB SSDs for $100.00 and kick-ass power supplies for $70.00. You just have to check that forum and click "buy" before it's sold out.

Hm, interesting. I'll do some research on overclocking them and see where that goes.

Look here for all of the info that you could ever want on the subject.

Astrotoy7 · May 4, 2009

Avery, you are maxxing out your dollars on a 12GB Rig?? For this purpose, as your ninja friend mentioned - the "24-32GB" is what you should at least leave yourself room to grow into.

Im not a Mac person at all because they are irrelevant to what I use them for(gaming , htpc).... However, this application is one thing you simply cannot look past a Mac Pro Any graphic designer worth their salt has a mac in their arsenal This type of work is really CPU/memory intensive, so an 8 core rig with 32GB RAM will give you the performance edge over 4 cores and 12GB(i7 or or not). Rather than use their online store I recommend you find a local specialist that can outfit you with one that suits your needs and budget.

8 core nehalem xeon models start at $3299 Supports up to 32GB RAM and 4TB via SATA

Throw in the Quadro FX 4800 For Mac(only released a couple of weeks ago) into it, and you will be ready to destroy worlds Either that, or simply the 4870 if you want to start at baseline, and have a card you can hop into windows on bootcamp and play games on well enough.

As for apps....most are interchangeable between win/mac/linux but only Mac users get to use Final Cut Studio. If you want to get into film/editing/post processing business Hollywood style you simply must be familiar with this app

Hopefully chainz will pop in and give his recommendations, this is right up his alley

I cant remember which Mac he had... IIRC it was an 8 core powershouse He has a high end windows rig with a GTX 280 which spends most of its time folding proteins for teamLFN and warming his house

Also, you have not listed a montior??? A monitor with hi-rez will give you the real estate you need to run mulitwindowed apps. The Apple Cinema 30", Samsung 305T or the Dell Studio 30" are all fabulous monitors that have a native rez of 2560x1600. I have the samsung myself, and it is almost the coolest thing I have ever.....'cept for my cat, Astro Jr To go with something a bit more cost effective....you should at least be looking at a monitor that supports 1080p or 19x12.

I recommend you read as many reviews as you can, and also start selecting a group of key apps you want to focus on. They are not cheap either... Also, please consider that Linux is also a viable OS for these purposes, depending on what apps you plan on using. If its good for ILM, its good for anyone Some Autodesk proggies are also ported to Mac and Linux(eg. MAYA), though Adobe CS4 is only for win and mac at this stage. If you were purely going to focus on CS4, there is actually a CS4 optimised quadro out there...aint too cheap though

mtfbwya

True_Avery · May 4, 2009

Mac's were one of the first things I looked at, and while they are excellent work computers... I am not made of money.

8 Cores and 32gb is nice, but that puts that mac at roughly $10,000 on the apple site. Perhaps I'm doing it wrong and you buy hardware from separate sources, but as it stands the mac is just ridiculously priced no matter how you throw it.

And the new Quadro would be nice as well if it wasn't $1,500 by itself.

I don't believe i7 boards currently support 32gb of ram yet, but the motherboard I found does support 24 which isn't that bad.

For the most part, I refuse to buy an apple for how heavily they overprice their hardware and software. For development its nice, but still a rip off in my opinion. That, and the whole problem with many apps not working on mac.

6.8k · May 4, 2009

Here in the realms of reality, a single Core i7 should do you just fine. Because of hyper-threading, they are capable of running 8 simultaneous threads like an octocore with very little loss in performance. This is Core i7's claim to fame. That chip is a monster. This is also where overclocking comes in and can help you get the most bang for your buck.

Kudos for your attitude towards Apple. They're a criminal organization as far as I'm concerned. My attitude towards Nvidia is also very similar when we're talking about how they essentially take their gaming cards, give them different heatsink shrouds, firmware and drivers, and then triple or quadruple the price and rename them "Quadro".

I'm sure that you have already, but if you haven't, be sure to ask jmac about *clears throat* alternatives to using Mac hardware. Heheheh.

Astrotoy7 · May 4, 2009

For development its nice, but still a rip off in my opinion. That, and the whole problem with many apps not working on mac.

Of course it's a rip off! Its Apple! Unfortunately this is one of the few little niches they have made for themselves...

Still windows is also coming into its own in this market, with support for CS4, and pretty much all the autodesk apps. The CS4 optimised quadro is also a beauty

It all depends of what your goals vs budget are. If you want to get into certain parts of the film/entertainment industry(esp the film side), some FCS or CS3/4 training is a must. If your into animating etc, then you can get by with PC/Linux and the modelling apps for most part/as a starter

I only got to know this stuff from having built such workstations for friends formally studying in this area, or CG-modelling related to engineering/architecture. They all started with PC/Linux, as they got more experienced and richer, they all have a mac now. I daresay it is the difference between doing it professionally, or for sh*ts n giggles.

I wouldnt rule out formal education options entirely, have you looked into scholarships and such? There's a ton of stuff out there. That way, you can write all your expenses off come tax time

They're a criminal organization

Yep, apple for their prices and design ethos, Intel for their business policy and mass layoffs predating the GFC. Love how 'equipe vert' is sticking it to intel atm

give them different heatsink shrouds, firmware and drivers, and then triple or quadruple the price and rename them "Quadro"

Whatever is under the hood, those cards are solely marketed towards professionals and enterprise levels consumers. They charge that because they can, and companies do not begrudge them for it... they get it all back

Its only when people outside this market jump in that these issues surface. It has alot to do with professionalismm and wanting to use the best tools to achieve your tasks. If its that important to you, that few thousand will be an investment more than anything else. If someone wants to be a top notch surgeon, are they going to ponce around and try and go to the most nasty and cheapest college there is, or do they want to get to Johns Hopkins and ensure their chances of success and future employment ?

mtfbwya

6.8k · May 4, 2009

I agree when it comes to companies using Macs and Quadros. It's the individual consumers like Avery that get screwed by such business practices.

Det. Bart Lasiter · May 4, 2009

They're a criminal organization as far as I'm concerned.

Correct!

Luckily, as is required under the GPL (gcc's license), Apple publishes the source code for these modifications. They don't seem to be very good about it, though (I have heard that they never released the source code to Xcode 2.5's build of gcc, and they seem to believe they can provide source on their own schedule, rather than with the corresponding binaries, which is required by the license).

RoxStar · May 4, 2009

Awww 3D graphic design. I was just going to say "get a macbook"

6.8k · May 4, 2009

stingerhs · May 5, 2009

and if you're looking to save some cash, don't count out ATI's FirePro series. as with the gaming cards, AMD has their workstation cards priced very competitively with Nvidia's, and there's not much of a performance difference in that arena, either.

6.8k · May 5, 2009

Yup. I'd recommend going with whichever offers the most bang for the buck.

True_Avery · May 5, 2009

Ok, thanks for the advise so far. I think I'll go with the NVidea card seeing as ATI has let me down in the past while Nvidea has not.

As for Ram, I think I'll go for 12 or 24GB of Ram depending on final hardware.

But, video card and Ram out of the way: